Is "Scales" a Misnomer?

Jack Black said:
I wonder if it was a seminal moment! :) I love tracking down when words or phrases were first coined. I do like the term 'coverings', it's kind of quaint and olde worldly :) In terms of what Bart said, I wonder if there could have been some German influence, I'm afraid I don't know what the traditional/historic German name would be though :(
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I haven't tracked down the earliest use but the use of "cover" is older than 1930. George Schrade 1905 patent filing:

"A pocket-knife comprising a handle having a lining and cover....trigger projecting outward through the cover"

From 1919 The American Cutler: "celluloid covers on steel lining or steel bolster patterns"

Jack Black said:
I guess a lot of the old words the Sheffield cutlers used maybe didn't pass over Jake. Clearly they were a big influence, but their language must have been hard for anyone else to understand. My favourite parts of the GEC book are the tales about the old Sheffielders, but there's one tale where the grandson of one of them is relating some bit of Sheffieldish he remembers hearing (I should go and find it out really). He thinks he finally understood what they were talking about, but actually he's completely wrong, and yet I could understand it myself perfectly :D :thumbsup:
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I don't understand what you're saying. ;) :p :D
 
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Will Power said:
YES!

IMG_1934.jpg~original
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It's unfortunate a source is not listed for the 1834 date.
 
supratentorial said:
I haven't tracked down the earliest use but the use of "cover" is older than 1930. George Schrade 1905 patent filing:

"A pocket-knife comprising a handle having a lining and cover....trigger projecting outward through the cover"



I don't understand what you're saying. ;) :p :D
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Good find :thumbsup:

LOL! :D :thumbsup:
 
Iron Age 1900: "Then, they must have German silver for the boisters and brass for the lining of the Knife. ... We now have all the materials for the Knife except the cover."
 
supratentorial said:
Iron Age 1900: "Then, they must have German silver for the boisters and brass for the lining of the Knife. ... We now have all the materials for the Knife except the cover."
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Sorry, what's that Jake?
 
Ace Rimmer said:
FWIW, Google translate gives "boards" for platinen and "grips" for Griffschalen.
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Might be lost in translation but it is two separate words, not the same for both. It's also one example. The words may have changed over time.

It would be interesting to research the origins. The relevance of the 1834 date in the oxford dictionary is not readily apparent to me. And it would take a lot of digging to find origins for "scale" and "cover". It would also be interesting, as Jack noted, whether the written word and the spoken word was the same or different in the USA. It would also be interesting to research the same in the UK. That would take some interviews of old timers and there's no one still around from as far back as 1834.
 
“Excuse me Mr Platts, what do you call these parts here?”

“Thawot yungun?”

“I said what do you call these parts of the knife?”

“Tha’s no need shout, a’m not [bleep] deaf thanooaz!”

“Can you tell me what these parts are Mr Platts?”

“Them’s scales tha daft ‘apporth?”

“I’m very sorry Mr Platts, I couldn’t understand that.”

“Tha’ll understan' back o’ mi’ ‘and in a minit! “

“Sorry?”

“A’l cover thi in welts an’ chuck thi in t’goit!”

“Did you say 'Covers'?”

“Duz tha wont mi boyt up thi erse ?”

“I’m going Mr Platts. Thank you.”
 
supratentorial said:
It would be interesting to research the origins. The relevance of the 1834 date in the oxford dictionary is not readily apparent to me. And it would take a lot of digging to find origins for "scale" and "cover". It would also be interesting, as Jack noted, whether the written word and the spoken word was the same or different in the USA. It would also be interesting to research the same in the UK. That would take some interviews of old timers and there's no one still around from as far back as 1834.
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I suspect the use of ''scales' goes back a long way before that date. The records of the London and Hallamshire cutlers go back before that too, but I'm not sure I want to wade through anymore! :thumbsup:
 
I don't think it would be too hard to find out when scale-makers first began to appear in number in Sheffield, but I think it would have only become a separate trade around the same time as grinders, for example, became a separate trade. Prior to that, cutlers did all their own work, and many continued to do so even after the different trades became established.
 
But, have the scales fallen from any eyes yet?:D:thumbsup:

The Shorter English Dictionary is only 2 vols. The Complete Oxford is many vols and it may have the source in full. But, it might simply boil down to usage,habit and variety of English along the lines of Pavement/Sidewalk/road surface, Biscuit/Cookie etc.:cool: Mind you, the Traditional Forum, correctly, expends more time on this type of consideration. Vive la difference!
 
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Jack Black said:
“Excuse me Mr Platts, what do you call these parts here?”

“Thawot yungun?”

“I said what do you call these parts of the knife?”

“Tha’s no need shout, a’m not [bleep] deaf thanooaz!”

“Can you tell me what these parts are Mr Platts?”

“Them’s scales tha daft ‘apporth?”

“I’m very sorry Mr Platts, I couldn’t understand that.”

“Tha’ll understan' back o’ mi’ ‘and in a minit! “

“Sorry?”

“A’l cover thi in welts an’ chuck thi in t’goit!”

“Did you say 'Covers'?”

“Duz tha wont mi boyt up thi erse ?”

“I’m going Mr Platts. Thank you.”
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Leave it to you Jack to lighten the mood.:rolleyes::D:thumbsup:

Seriously, another great read this thread. I had no idea the amount of cutlery literature out there. Not having those I came at it with a more general consideration of definitions:

- Scale, the most relevant of several disparate definitions being the hard regular covering of fish and reptiles, or of mineral deposits on the working surface of boilers and the like. This comports with the external pieces of the non-working knife end, not an internal piece.

- Cover, self-explanatory.

- Handle,
'the part by which a thing is held, carried, or controlled.
synonyms: haft, shank, stock, shaft, grip, handgrip, hilt, helve, butt;
knob e.g. "the knife's handle"
That is, the entire non-working knife end.

- Liner (to throw in one more)
'a lining in an appliance, device, or container, especially a removable one, in particular.
  • the lining of a garment.
  • a replaceable metal sleeve placed within the cylinder of an engine, forming a durable surface to withstand wear from the piston.
    noun: cylinder liner; plural noun: cylinder liners'
(Source: Google dictionary)

I'm generally a moderate conservative regarding philology, ie that form, structure and definitions are important for communication, but also, that change gradually occurs and becomes generally accepted. (This is a long winded nod to the real experts here;)) I thus find that these general definitions make the most sense in the present and to most people, 'cutleriphiles' (oh boy there I go, broke my own rule:D) and the general public.
 
We've gone from modern usage to 100 years ago to the origin! Bigger and bigger undertakings! There are at least examples of Americans using "cover" at least in US patent writing. And there are some examples of inside and outside "scales" in US patent writing. The language was likely influenced by English and German immigrants. Language may have changed over time. Collectors may have popularized some knife terms like "liners" instead of "scales" or "lining". As Eric noted, there are differences in net talk and factory talk. GEC favors a particular use and since the forum favors GEC, it may make sense to favor their language as well. Eric and CSC also use the same terms. But using the right or wrong word (if there is a right word) won't stop discussions or the internet.
 
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Will Power said:
But, it might simply boil down to usage,habit and variety of English along the lines of Pavement/Sidewalk/road surface
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It could indeed be that Will :) Language fascinates me, and I've noticed in the past, examples of English slang terms, which were imported into America with early immigrants, but then eventually fell out of favour, sometimes taking a long time to do so. I know slang is quite different to technical language, but America is such a big place, large enough for separate language to develop, witness all the different names for 'Mumblety Peg', or the bottle-opener/cap-lifter thing :)
 
supratentorial said:
GEC favors a particular use and since the forum favors GEC, it may make sense to favor their language as well.
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Sorry Jake, but that absolutely horrifies me! We've been discussing hundreds of years of knife history, how long have GEC been around (the GEC we're talking about), and since when did they get to decide what language is OK on this forum?! o_O

(Bad enough to have George Schrade passed off as a Sheffielder! ;) )
 
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