Is "Scales" a Misnomer?

You guys are are still going?!

Jack Black said:
Lewis M Bement’s ‘The Cutlery Story’ uses ‘Handle’.
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This is one of the examples that I showed but you omitted the use of "covers" ("having outside covers, or handle")

supratentorial said:
One book that has often been referenced is the Cutlery Story published by the Associated cutlery industries of America in 1950 (list of companies in the second photo). AG Russell's encyclopedia uses this book as one of its main sources.

In the diagram, it uses "handle" but in the text it says "besides having outside covers, or handle, attached". The diagram uses the words "scale" or "lining" for the metal parts.

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supratentorial said:
Do you have examples of ad copy with "scale" used instead of "covers" prior to 1930 in the USA? I have old examples of "handles" but I don't recall seeing "scale" in place of "covers" in ad copy from the USA.

I don't know the origin of "liners" but some old ad copy used "lining" instead of "scales".
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I hadn't previously seen examples of the use of "scales" in ad copy in the USA. Doing searches, I have now seen some examples of the use of "scales" in US patents. The most common term that I've seen is "handles", as originally mentioned.

I think it is likely that the Cutlery Story was a widely used reference by US manufacturers since its publication by the Associated cutlery industries of America in 1950.
 
supratentorial said:
You guys are are still going?!
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It got kind of 'compulsive' after a while! :D :thumbsup:

supratentorial said:
This is one of the examples that I showed but you omitted the use of "covers" ("having outside covers, or handle")
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Oops! Sorry about that Jake, took a bit of finding :oops:

supratentorial said:
I hadn't previously seen examples of the use of "scales" in ad copy in the USA. Doing searches, I have now seen some examples of the use of "scales" in US patents. The most common term that I've seen is "handles", as originally mentioned.

I think it is likely that the Cutlery Story was a widely used reference by US manufacturers since its publication by the Associated cutlery industries of America in 1950.
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Patents are are good place to look Jake :thumbsup: Handles does seem to be the most common in the US. I did get the impression from the solitary US patent I looked at that 'handles' might have been used because the applicant was trying to explain something to people who had little knowledge of the cutlery trade, if any. Catalogues and adverts may have used that term because it could be easily understood? Maybe it was the case that the parts were only given names by the cutlers themselves? I'm afraid I didn't save a date for that Keen Kutter advert, (I dare say I could find it), but it must be pretty early. I'm sure that the Sheffield cutlers who moved to the US would have used the term 'scales', but then barely anyone could understand a word they were saying anyway! :D Of course there's a big gap between that period and the publication of 'The Cutlery Story' (1950). It may well have been influential, I don't know, it reads like it's written for children to me, and has a lot of shortcomings. Let's hope that more traditional knife enthusiasts invest in some good books rather than relying on stuff like that :thumbsup:

Bartleby said:
I thought as much, but couldn't resist the allusion, thanks for your patience.
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I love jokes like that Bart, and never grow tired of them! :D :thumbsup: My kids (grown-up) tolerate them - sometimes! :D :rolleyes: :thumbsup:
 
Jack Black said:
I'm sure that the Sheffield cutlers who moved to the US would have used the term 'scales', but then barely anyone could understand a word they were saying anyway!
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Likewise, the German immigrants that worked in several of the New York and Pennsylvania cutlery factories may well have influenced the word choice preferences in the States as well (one wonders if "handle" as a more generic word made communication easier).
 
Jack Black said:
I did get the impression from the solitary US patent I looked at that 'handles' might have been used because the applicant was trying to explain something to people who had little knowledge of the cutlery trade, if any. Catalogues and adverts may have used that term because it could be easily understood? Maybe it was the case that the parts were only given names by the cutlers themselves?
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Good point about writing for a specific audience. This is a big factor in writing for any subject.

Jack Black said:
I'm afraid I didn't save a date for that Keen Kutter advert, (I dare say I could find it), but it must be pretty early.
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I have the same ad from 1930. They were often used over and over. I haven't looked to see if I have an earlier copy. In the 1890 Maher and Grosh catalog, handles was used.

Jack Black said:
I'm sure that the Sheffield cutlers who moved to the US would have used the term 'scales', but then barely anyone could understand a word they were saying anyway! :D
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This is the main reason that I changed my mind.

Jack Black said:
Of course there's a big gap between that period and the publication of 'The Cutlery Story' (1950). It may well have been influential, I don't know, it reads like it's written for children to me, and has a lot of shortcomings.
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I think it's common in writing. In school, I was taught that public writing for newspapers etc is best written at the 3rd grade level. There's a big difference between popular science writing and technical science writing.

I've heard the book was sometimes used as a reference for new employees in manufacturing and sales. I can't verify it though.
 
Bartleby said:
Likewise, the German immigrants that worked in several of the New York and Pennsylvania cutlery factories may well have influenced the word choice preferences in the States as well (one wonders if "handle" as a more generic word made communication easier).
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Yes, I'm afraid I don't know what the German cutlery term are Bart. That could indeed be the case, though the term 'handle' was used in Sheffield catalogues too (annoyingly, the earliest ones are so sparse on information that they don't use any terms at all) :thumbsup: Hopefully, the German cutlers picked up English quicker than the Sheffield fellers apparently did! :D :thumbsup:
 
supratentorial said:
I have the same ad from 1930. They were often used over and over. I haven't looked to see if I have an earlier copy. In the 1890 Maher and Grosh catalog, handles was used.
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I wonder if it was a seminal moment! :) I love tracking down when words or phrases were first coined. I do like the term 'coverings', it's kind of quaint and olde worldly :) In terms of what Bart said, I wonder if there could have been some German influence, I'm afraid I don't know what the traditional/historic German name would be though :(

supratentorial said:
This is the main reason that I changed my mind.
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I guess a lot of the old words the Sheffield cutlers used maybe didn't pass over Jake. Clearly they were a big influence, but their language must have been hard for anyone else to understand. My favourite parts of the GEC book are the tales about the old Sheffielders, but there's one tale where the grandson of one of them is relating some bit of Sheffieldish he remembers hearing (I should go and find it out really). He thinks he finally understood what they were talking about, but actually he's completely wrong, and yet I could understand it myself perfectly :D :thumbsup:

supratentorial said:
I think it's common in writing. In school, I was taught that public writing for newspapers etc is best written at the 3rd grade level. There's a big difference between popular science writing and technical science writing.

I've heard the book was sometimes used as a reference for new employees in manufacturing and sales. I can't verify it though.
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I must say, it makes me cringe reading it, especially the 'historical' stuff. But then, when was advertising ever accurate or complex? :rolleyes: :thumbsup:
 
Jack Black said:
Yes, I'm afraid I don't know what the German cutlery term are Bart. That could indeed be the case, though the term 'handle' was used in Sheffield catalogues too (annoyingly, the earliest ones are so sparse on information that they don't use any terms at all) :thumbsup: Hopefully, the German cutlers picked up English quicker than the Sheffield fellers apparently did! :D :thumbsup:
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I also am lacking in German terminology. Just putting it forth.
 
Well on a fixed blade knife - "Griffschalen / Platterl"!

(http://www.wolf-borger-messer.de/tips.htm)

Probably translates as "Covers / Scales"! :D :thumbsup:

Edit - Ah, I just didn't scroll down enough! It's "Platinen". 'Plates' I guess? So not a lot of help really in terms of our discussion! :D Unless the old guys used a different word? :confused: ;)

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FWIW, a handy online translator renders "Griffschalen" as "handle shells" (as Jack predicted, a compound word :D).
My personal opinion carries no historical weight on these matters of terminology, but from a purely descriptive standpoint, I like "handle shells" at least as well as any of the other terms in this thread! :rolleyes:

(Unfortunately, "Platinen" gets translated as "sinkers" or "circuit boards"!? :confused:)

- GT
 
5K Qs said:
FWIW, a handy online translator renders "Griffschalen" as "handle shells" (as Jack predicted, a compound word :D).
My personal opinion carries no historical weight on these matters of terminology, but from a purely descriptive standpoint, I like "handle shells" at least as well as any of the other terms in this thread! :rolleyes:

(Unfortunately, "Platinen" gets translated as "sinkers" or "circuit boards"!? :confused:)
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Thanks GT :D Looks like we can't blame 'covers' on the poor old German cutlers! :D :thumbsup:
 
pertinux said:
Great stuff, guys! I was aware of the liner || scale nomenclature, but am really enjoying some of the finer distinctions and historical references. :thumbsup:



Will, if you still have the image on your Photobucket? When you copy its link here, remove any text after .jpg, and add ~original. The formatting within the IMG brackets should look something like at the end,

willcatalog.jpg~original

And your image *should* show here. For now. Give it a try? I'd like to see what you're describing. :)

~ P.
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YES!

IMG_1934.jpg~original
 
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