Is the Sebenza the best folder that money can buy?

A well designed custom knife made to your specs would be the best knife for the money. You are the one using it, so why not have it designed and made specifically for you?

The Sebenza is one of the top productions knives around though.
 
Have never seen nor handled a Seb, so I can't add anything constructive to the initial question as to whether or not it's the "best folder".
My only 2 observations on this matter are:
1. They hold their value on the secondhand market.
2. Chris Reeve must love all of the free advertising that he gets from this site - These Sebenza threads will only increase his sales. Any publicity, good, bad and especially controversial, is good publicity. Controversy is a fantastic marketing tool to use and I'm sure Mr Reeve would not object.
 
So you are saying finish makes no difference. If I ever have surgery I hope that the doc uses a finely finished blade. I am going to heal quicker due to less tissue damage.

Depending upon the medium and task a finely finished blade will perform differently at times than one with a rough finish. So finish is not irrelevent at all.

Also better belts are more expensive good belts come in varying grits too so the time spent becomes moot to the point that I am makeing that finish is relevant rather than than the statement that it is not.

The finish on a handle can also have a maked effect on the use of a knife for a long period of time. (That is relevant to me).

Also, you can twist it around any way you like but it is a given that an answer to a question such as this is prejudiced by the fact that the answer will be based on the experience. You neglect to address logic you used to take that and extend it to "The question should not be asked." :rolleyes:
 
I'll say the Sebenza is the best production folder that money can buy for several reasons:

It is definitly built to last.

It is made of top-notch materials.

The craftsmanship and attention-to-detail is legendary.

The knife actually performs very well from all accounts that I've heard or read.

The CR customer service is great from all accounts I've ever heard.

And the resale value is very good.

So I do think that the Sebenza is THE BEST...however, I'm not sure by what margin.
I'm not sure that it is that much better overall (and it is definitly inferior in some ways) than a Spyderco Military, or a Benchmade 710, or a Benchmade Skirmish, or a Buck/Strider Mayo TNT, or a Kershaw/Ken Onion Bump, etc...

It might be the best, but when you consider the asking price for a new Sebenza, most knife uses can easily live with a knife that is SECOND BEST.

Allen.
 
Cliff Stamp said:
Mathman, if you wade through some searches you will come up with three common arguements used as to why the Sebenza is "best" in its price range :

-the consistency of execution
-the level of fit and finish
-bushing and stop pin sleeve

Are these worth the increase in price, they are to some, some will argue that any of them alone define it in another class. I don't think so because :

1) Nothing is perfect, they all have problems, my Sebenza's edge was half of spec, I have not seen that much variance on a Spyderco, though I don't doubt they probably exist. I have seen a few dozen high end folders and the defect rate is low, like one and some would argue it wasn't a defect anyway (liner lock on Military being white knuckle instable). Plus it isn't like you are stuck with the defect, you just return it and get it fixed, so customer service is critical.

2) Finish is irrelevant on a working knife which is how this knife is promoted, my used Sebenza looks horrible finish wise compared to any NIB FRN model which will also open and close smoother.
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1. No, nothing is perfect, but by almost all reports (I'd say all reports, but aparently there's exceptions...or exception, yours being the only one I've ever heard), the Sebenza and any of CR's products are as close as you're going to get from a manufacturer, and consistantly. They don't win awards every year in this catagory because of fanboys on internet forums. And they have the customer service to back it.

2. Finish is irrelevant? If I buy a $350 knife, the finish'd better be effing perfect. It might be irrelevant to you, so maybe the price isn't worth it to you. And just because you beat the crap out of your knives doesn't mean everybody else does.

In any case, even on a worker, a knife should be well finished (especially a $350 one). Are you going to buy a brand-new Ford F250 with scratches? Bad paint? Holes worn in the seat?

If you don't want to spend $350 on an impeccably finished knife, buy a cheaper one or a used one. If you don't care about the way your pickup looks, buy a used one and save. Just because something is irrelevant to you, that doesn't mean it's irrelevant to everybody else.



If a Spyderco Endura is a Toyota, then a Sebenza is a Mercedes S600. Yes, both will carry groceries home from the store. Yes, both will take your 2.3 kids to soccer practice and back. If that's all you're looking for, don't go bitching to me that you spent 10X as much for your Mercedes when all you needed was a Toyota.
 
NeedleRemorse said:
What defines best?
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This can easily be defined objectively and lead to a productive discussion.

A great slicer can't be a great chopper
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Use one of Ray Kirk's bowies.

You point though that there are tradeoffs is perfectly valid, this doesn't mean the entire matter is subjective and simply opinion, and even if this was the case, it doesn't hold that the question should not be asked as was argued in the above.

bhyde said:
Why aren't you making knives?
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I don't enjoy grinding metal nearly as much as I do actually using the knife. I have however done it in the past to make a point about geometry vs steel in regards to performance. I do a lot of mods, usually flat/convex and may pick up a wheel to do hollow grinds in the future. I am more interested than exploring performance though than actually selling knives, so if I ever did actually start making them it would be similar to how Alvin does it, but I don't see that as likely, there are lots of makers who can do what I want to see.

Bastid said:
So you are saying finish makes no difference.
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No, I said the proclaimed superior finish of the Sebenza which people argue for its increased cost makes no functional difference in a working knife because any superior finish aspect will be erased trivially in use.

If I ever have surgery I hope that the doc uses a finely finished blade. I am going to heal quicker due to less tissue damage.
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Assuming the user knows how to sharpen his knives, this isn't a significant benefit, and it isn't like the Sebenza can claim a superiority in NIB sharpness over Spyderco and other similar knives anyway.

In fact the ease of sharpening of the Sebenza is actually lower, not higher, on many jig and similar systems, compared to Spyderco's due to the difference in initial edge angle.

...the time spent becomes moot to the point that I am makeing
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You specifically stated in the above that since it takes longer for the maker to raise the finish you can argue the price from that point alone. This I noted would lead to odd paths such as paying more money for a maker who is inefficient or who has low QC.

The finish on a handle can also have a maked effect on the use of a knife for a long period of time.
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It isn't like Reeve's finish is actually superior in this or any of the other effects you noted to the knives it gets compared to. Reeve does have a few aspects which do influence performance such as the rounded spine which improves ergonomics and you could easily argue would increase cost, but it would be hard to press it to his price level and I would call that design rather than a finish issue, similar to square tang notches.

...an answer to a question such as this is prejudiced by the fact that the answer will be based on the experience.
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And as I noted, if you want to take that stance then it becomes universal. Your defination makes every decision and statement prejudiced, even your actual statement itself.

Planterz said:
...yours being the only one I've ever heard
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As soon as I asked about the edge grind someone noted immediately they had seen the same variance in edge thickness on a large Sebenza, other problems have been noted on the forums.

To actually argue the consistency is significantly higher you would want
to at least do a forum search and present a higher defect rate for knives like the 710, Paramilitary and Rat Trap in comparison.

And just because you beat the crap out of your knives doesn't mean everybody else does.
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I carried the small Sebenza in my pocket for a few days, the handle was immediately scratched up. I used it to peel some potatoes, cut up some cardboard and used rope and the blade was filled with deep scratches.

I sharpened the blade adjusting the edge angle and the coarse SiC slurry which again increased the cosmetic damage to the blade. None of this I would call "beating the crap" out of the knife.

But after just a brief period of use the finish is much worse than on an inexpensive FRN knife, which is why as noted I think finish is irrelevant on a working knife.

-Cliff
 
Cliff,

Please note I have not mentioned the Sebenza in my post except that to say for some it is the best knife money can buy and for others it is not.

You wrote in a previous post that finish is irrevelant on a working knife.

My point is that finish is very much relevant on a working knife. You can twist this around any way you wish bring a manufacturor into it, but the above is true and I think you know that.

If you now think finish is relevant on a working knife, I have gotten the point I was trying to make across.

As far as cost. It is also a fact that many belts are used to obtain a fine finish. It starts off with a course belt at stops where the maker wants to stop. More belts used = more time and yes I expect to pay for a knife. It is not a matter of using one belt over another. It is a matter of the time (progression of belts) and materials it takes to produce a fine finish as opposed to a rougher one. Fact is it does take longer to produce a knife with a fine finish than to produce an identical knife with a rough finish.

Are you saying that if a maker/factory offers the same knife in different finish grades that you do not expect to pay for the higher grade of finish. If so I think the expectation is not reasonable.
 
2) Finish is irrelevant on a working knife ...
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That is the first part of the sentance you used and it just is not true.
 
Cliff,

Honestly, there can be no best knife, it's silly to think otherwise. If your use is filetting then you want a thin knife, but that filleting knife sure can't chop wood very well, now can it? To say "That knife is the best" is like saying "That screwdriver is the best". Well, guess what? Maybe that #2 phillips is made out of the best materials and is ergonomic etc. but the fact is it can't turn a 3/8" regular screw head very well. So when asking if a knife is the best, there has to be a limiter such as: "Is Sebenza the best knife available for (insert use eg. light cutting chores)." If you say my tradeoff point is valid, how can you then say that there can be a best knife if there is no specific usage suggested? I hope you're seeing my point. I agree that if a specific duty can be assigned, then perhaps a best could be found, but there are so many uses of knives that to try to quantify "best" would be trivial.

In other words, daily we see posts asking for a good chopper. I know we're talking folders, but when we suggest a BK7 or Camp Tramp, we're suggesting them because of their hefty blades and solid construction. Someone else might want a kitchen knife, and we'll suggest something appropriate. But if they say "What's the best fixed blade?" then we can't say "Becker BK7" or say Busse or CRK because Forschner makes better kitchen tools.
 
Bastid said:
You wrote in a previous post that finish is irrevelant on a working knife.
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Yes in the context of the Sebenza being the best knife of its class and this being one of the reasons it gets this label. So what is at hand is the advantage it has in this respect compared to the other working knives.

Now you can extend this to all finish issues such as sloppy handle slabs, uneven primary grinds, etc. which all influence performance, but this isn't in context with the arguement because the Sebenza can't claim that level of advantage.

Fact is it does take longer to produce a knife with a fine finish than to produce an identical knife with a rough finish.
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It would also take more time if the maker had less skill, thus by your logic as makers get more experience or better tools people should expect to pay less for their work.

Are you saying that if a maker/factory offers the same knife in different finish grades that you do not expect to pay for the higher grade of finish.
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When I buy customs I request no finish work. Makers don't take this to mean they can be as sloppy as they want with construction and assembly, they simply understand there is no cosmetic work done to improve the looks of the knife.

It is the difference between a finish carpenter and a regular carpenter. It isn't that a regular carpenter has lines off level, nothing hangs perpendicular, joins over lap, etc. . Construction is solid, however you would not pay for a finish carpenter to do framing work.

I recently ordered a production knife and was told that all that was in stock was cosmetically damaged (edge and flats) and I didn't hesitate to get it because that is again irrelevant to its performance so as a working tool it doesn't matter.

When I had Krein mod the U2 I even asked him not to sharpen it and he could leave the grind with the as shaped finish. No I would not pay any money to have a better finish applied to a working knife for the same reasons I would get a mirror finish on a hammer.

This is why I noted awhile ago in the custom forum I would like to see makers offer user grade pieces because all the effort which goes into finish to raise the looks of the knife is irrelevant to its performance as a cutting tool.

Now as you argued well doesn't a mirror finish cut smoother, and it does in some media, specifically if you slice with the knife across the grind lines, however again in a working knife the mirror finish is quickly scratched and worn so its benefit can hardly be argued to be functional in a working tool.

As for what they charge and what I expect, I would expect them to price the knives so as to maximize profit, and this rarely critically dependent on the time and materials but mainly an issue of what the market will support.

-Cliff
 
Cliff we are going in circles.

Is finish or is it not relevant to a working knife.

It is a question with a yes or no answer. If you answer is yes we agree, if your answer is not then we have to agree to disagree.

The maker of the knife is not the issue being addressed in that question. I am trying to make a the point that finish is very relevant to a working knife in many ways and it appears from the things you have written that it is irrevelant.

Once we finish this, I will start looking for how the best knife for the money question can accurately be answered. I'll start that one by saying that it can not be answered accurately, but it can be answered according to the experience of the person who is answering the question. :D.
 
As far as profit, it is defined as what is left over after the cost of production, distribution, marketing and other expenses are factored in.


If the cost of production rises (as it will on a fine finished knife as opposed to a rough finish identical knife) profit lessens unless a corresponding price rise goes into effect. That is very simple and basic economics and there is no point in arguing the point that if more goes into finishing a knife (i.e. production expence is greater) then it is quite reasonable to expect to pay more for that knife.)

It has nothing to do with skill or efficiency. I.E. it is quite silly of you to extend my logic to say that I would expect to pay more for a knife from a source that can not produce it efficiently. All you did here was introduce two variables into the logic (efficiency and a different maker). When you to that to a logic the logic is invalid. So it very much follows that the extesion of the logic that you made that I would have no problem paying more for a knife that was made inefficiently is not even a legitamate application of logic. It stands for what it is (a poor extesionsion of a sound logic by introducting new variables.) That type of "proof" is not sound, but you being a physics expert already know that.

Cliff narrow your argument to the exact same knife made by the same person or factory. Are you saying that the finely finsihed knife should cost the same as the more rough finished one. I am saying that the price should be different, you are saying that it should not. We can let anyone who reads this decide.
 
I'm gonna weigh in with some thoughts related to the direction this thread has taken, but they aren't necessarily in regards to the Sebenza.

The issue of finish on a working blade has been brought up, and someone else mentioned things like straight and even grinds.

On a big knife that will see hard use, especially one made of carbon steel, I believe a decent finish is required or gunk and sap will really stick to it and cause rust pretty quickly. A mirror finish is not a bad thing, but it's probably not worth the extra effort since the blade will be scratched up in use anyway. But just don't leave it rough straight off the grinder. My big blade has a finish of around 320 grit, and it's really stained and scratched up now.

I firmly believe that the primary grinds do need to be straight, even, and crisp, with no ripples or dips. Not for aesthetics, but for function. For example, take this quote from Joe Walters after he heat treated my big bowie:
Your blade has excellent lines and geometry. There was no warpage at all because everything was ground so evenly...
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Did ya'll catch that? Cause...... and effect. Just a slight variation in the thickness could cause warpage during heat treating. Even if your blade still looks straight, (Paul Bos once told me he has to straighten a large percentage of blades before shipping them back to customers) the stress is still there in the steel, and it can warp or bend the first time you make a bad cut. This has happened to me in the past because of hidden stress.
 
NeedleRemorse said:
To say "That knife is the best" is like saying "That screwdriver is the best". Well, guess what? Maybe that #2 phillips is made out of the best materials and is ergonomic etc. but the fact is it can't turn a 3/8" regular screw head very well. ... I agree that if a specific duty can be assigned, then perhaps a best could be found, but there are so many uses of knives that to try to quantify "best" would be trivial.
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Hear, hear!! 'Bout time someone brought some reason to this inane argument.

There's some innate pathology in the human mind that craves one perfect tool, that's good for everything under the sun. Fact is, it doesn't exist, never has, never will.

Arguments like this one are why I stopped reading and posting to rec.guns: the flamewars over which one single gun/caliber/bullet/powder/whatnot was "The One". As if any single gun could ever be ideal for long-range target shooting AND close range self defense AND squirrel-sized varmints AND Africa's Big Five.

Rather than trying to find the One True Knife, take a lesson from the shooting folks: put together an "arsenal" of knives that tackle the tasks you actually use, or expect to use, them for. If you're honest about what you need, and smart about what you buy, this shouldn't take many different knives; just be realistic about the strengths of each, and about the compromises each represents.
 
Cliff Stamp said:
No, I said the proclaimed superior finish of the Sebenza which people argue for its increased cost makes no functional difference in a working knife because any superior finish aspect will be erased trivially in use.
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People who buy a CRK Sebenza aren't paying $350 for an unfinished knife. Get this through your thick hairy skull.

I carried the small Sebenza in my pocket for a few days, the handle was immediately scratched up. I used it to peel some potatoes, cut up some cardboard and used rope and the blade was filled with deep scratches.
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.

You also cut up aluminum and steel cans. It got scratched? No kidding! Everybody here knows your "testing methods" go way beyond reasonable reccomended use. Don't pretend otherwise.

I sharpened the blade adjusting the edge angle and the coarse SiC slurry which again increased the cosmetic damage to the blade. None of this I would call "beating the crap" out of the knife.
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It's not the Sebenza's fault you suck at sharpening. Put blue 3M painter's tape over the blade next time and you won't scratch it.

But after just a brief period of use the finish is much worse than on an inexpensive FRN knife, which is why as noted I think finish is irrelevant on a working knife.
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Again, just because you treat your knives the way you do, that doesn't mean the rest of the world does too. So you think the Sebenza costs too much for a working knife with irrelevant fit and finish? Well, you're probably right. So don't buy one. But that's just your opinion. It's not CR's fault that their knife doesn't match your needs at a specific price. Don't buy one, simple as that. And if you do (did), don't bitch about the price, it's your own damn fault.

It would also take more time if the maker had less skill, thus by your logic as makers get more experience or better tools people should expect to pay less for their work.
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That's just retarded. That's your logic, not Bastid's.

A highly finished knife takes more time. That's a fact. But what you're paying for is the end product. You're not going to spend an equal amount of money on a badly finished knife that took the same amount of time. Why would you spend less on a highly finished knife simply because it took an experienced maker less time?
 
Here's the thing, Cliff...

It's not your opinions that are pissing me and many other people off. It's the way you present your opinions as definitive irrefutable fact, and then fault the maker when they don't conform to your opinions.

You could simply say something like:

"I don't think the Sebenza is worth my money, as I don't need to pay extra money for a highly finished knife, which I feel, for my uses, isn't necessary in a working knife."

I can't argue with that. Nobody can. In fact, I feel the same way. I don't own a Sebenza and probably never will. I'm trying one out (in a couple weeks) in a Passaround, since I'd like to see what the buzz is about, but I'll probably never buy one. My BM710HS is everything I want right now.

But that's not the way you're saying it. You say it like:

"Sebenzas are overpriced, overrated, and inferior to cheaper knives because finish is irrelevant on a knife that I cut steel cans with, and it's all CR's fault because the don't cater to my needs even though I bought one of their knives."

That might be your opinion, but you're presenting it as fact. Then you continue to argue it as though everybody else's opinions (on whether or not the Sebenza is worth the cost) is wrong simply because it isn't the same as yours.

I'm not going to tell you to STFU. That's not very democratic. I will however suggest (as has been suggested to you many times before) that you realize that you are not the final voice in knife testing. You are one opinion in an ocean of opinions. Stop your irrational vendettas against companies that don't kiss your ass or jive with your specific knife needs. It's not Chris Reeve's fault you don't like Sebenzas.
 
the best production does not exist yet - but I'll explain it to you. Its the CRK sebenza and BM AXIS collaboration! Its a large reg sebenza, except one of the slabs (w/out pocket clip) is g-10 and it sports an AXIS lock. :cool:
 
love4steel, why would you want to complicate a great knife defined by the simplicity and directness of its design? :D
 
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