Is the Sebenza the best folder that money can buy?

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A framelock works by having part of the frame jam itself in the way of the blade, keeping it open. The more it's jammed in there, the tighter it locks. Thus, if you squeeze the knife harder, it's more likely to lock tighter, not close.
 
oh i see. Is it possible to over-engage (not sure if thats the word) the lock and have the blade slip past the lock?
 
RedEdge77 said:
oh i see. Is it possible to over-engage (not sure if thats the word) the lock and have the blade slip past the lock?
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Nope, when the frame lock is against the other scale/frame and cannot move in any more, the frame lock is still plenty thick enough to engage the blade. This is why you can squeeze as hard as you like.

I think I said that right...
 
RedEdge77 said:
oh i see. Is it possible to over-engage (not sure if thats the word) the lock and have the blade slip past the lock?
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Seen that happen on very cheap poorly designed knives, but with the big old slab of a well designed frame lock. That is not going to happen.

I am still trying to understand. Is finish only irrelvant on Sebenza's or irrevelant on all "working" knives? I think you might have the term finish confused with embellishment.The makers I know do not consider cosmetics as a part of finish. Cosmetics are embellisment. Finish is the transition of one material to another and the degree of corseness of abrasive used on the knife blade as well has the handle and parts. Handle material choice, fancy fastners (screws and pins) inlays (the cosmetic stuff that you speak of as finish) is more widely acknowledged as embellishment and if that is really what you ment from the beginning (what a round-a-bout way to get there ;)) then I totally ageee with you that embellishment is irrelevent to a working knife.

As far as application of logic a brush-up course is needed in a very big way.
 
large/classic/dual thumblug


thanks for your patience with these threads!

:foot::yawn::barf::eek:


:rolleyes:
 
Planterz said:
You also cut up aluminum and steel cans. It got scratched? No kidding! Everybody here knows your "testing methods" go way beyond reasonable reccomended use. Don't pretend otherwise.
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I don't quite get the concept of "reasonable recommended use", a term I've read here more often than in any other forum. What exactly does it mean? Or does it mean, like I suspect, lots of different things to different people?

Seriously, I've yet to see many manufacturers spelling out in detail what you can do and what you can't do with their knives. Why should they (apart perhaps from covering their backs)? In fact, I'd be somewhat amused if a manufacturer were to tell me that I shouldn't cut up some cardboard because it may damage the finish of the blade ..:)

What it comes down to is plain ol' common sense (like in "heavy prying isn't *really* a good idea with a thin folder") and some user awareness that some of the things one might do or attempt to do may damage the finish of a knife or indeed destroy it. So, if I decide to cut up steel cans I know that'll screw up the finish of the knife. Big deal. I'd be surprised if I didn't. I won't complain that I ruined the finish of the blade.

The only exception to this is when manufacturers claim their knives can do things they can't, like when manufacturers, usually those who are particularly fond of the word "tactical", claim you can do basically *everything* with their knives. And if a manufacturer claims one can use their knives to cut up at least a dozen tanks before the blade becomes blunted I'd be pretty unhappy if I found the blade became blunt after only two tanks. :D

Now, if someone decides to compare how knives do when you use them really hard, much harder than Joe Average and thus much harder than what most people find "normal", or "reasonable", and finds some significant differences between them, that's fair enough. I may not use my knives like that, but I'm still interested in the results.

Hans
 
the possum said:
On a big knife that will see hard use, especially one made of carbon steel, I believe a decent finish is required or gunk and sap will really stick to it and cause rust pretty quickly.
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I think it was the Basic #7 my brother took the coating off a few years back and it had a really coarse undergrind, shaping grit I would assume. He did some work (chopping mainly) and complained it was "sticky", I gave him a sanding block and in less than five minutes he resurfaced the blade.

He didn't achieve a mirror finish, it wasn't even a decent satin, all he wanted to do was get it to the point where the finish would be similar to the scratches from use so he just broke the coarse grit. How much would you actually give him to do that to a blade, probably not a lot.

With my large blades, I just let them get burnished smooth in use and sharpening. When I reprofiled my large custom 5160 parang I left the entire primary grind with the as belt finish, which was 80 or 100 grit. If you look at it now it is very smooth, just from chopping and the sharpening.

You can't tell it apart surface wise from my SHBM which had a very nice finish NIB, aside from the handful of scrapes from being banged around in the shop which I was made aware of when I bought it, and could not care less about.

But this is a pretty radical example, no one actually sells blades with this level of finish anyway, so it is in context of what is seen, and specifically here what is seen comparing a Sebenza to a 710 or Paramilitary or Rat Trap. Is that level of increased finish productive?

I would argue that even the level of finish on the other three is a waste of time on a working knife let alone on the Sebenza.

RedEdge77 said:
do framelocks close on your hand if you squeeze to tight?
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They can both cause the lock to engage more or less depending on the grip and nature of the lock, left handed vs right handed on the same lock for example.

Planterz said:
You also cut up aluminum and steel cans.
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That isn't as hard on the blade finish as cutting cardboard and used rope. The cans can be harder on the edge, but the metal is softer than the abrasives in the cardboard and used rope and the cardboard and rope grate along the entire primary grind whereas the metals usually just make contact with the edge.

Everybody here knows your "testing methods" go way beyond reasonable reccomended use.
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Nothing I have done with the Sebenza so far would be a problem for a SAK. That is a pretty lame standard for a $350 hard use working folder promoted as being made from optimal materials with optimal performance.

Put blue 3M painter's tape over the blade next time and you won't scratch it.
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The tape would make contact with the stone and gum it up immediately. When you apply high relief grinds you really can't expect to not effect the finish of the blade, but this is secondary to the damage from use anyway which is why I don't tape the blade, and of course it doesn't effect performance anyway and as noted this is about working knives not safe queens.

By the time knife needs to be sharpened the primary is full of scratches anyway, and no it doesn't take extreme use to do so. I sharpen blades for friends all the time, none of them are "high speed operators" just normal guys, and their blades are always heavily scratched. While what I did with the Sebenza may seem extreme to you, it is nothing unusual for a tradesmen who will do it with a $5 Olfa knife all day long.

The only concern I have sharpening the Sebenza is not grinding off the stud which is one of the reasons I prefer opening holes. If you are going to put them on at least make them easy to remove like ER does.

Bastid said:
I think you might have the term finish confused with embellishment.
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No, we simply see if differently. If I bought a table and one of the legs was a different height so it as off level I would not see this as a finish issue but a major construction flaw. I have never yet had a maker say "Oh, you don't care about finish? I have a blade here with a severe warp then and the scales are cracked."

Now if you want to define finish as including severe construction defects then that is different, but that was not how it was used in context of this thread which is what you were contending, plus I would really like to see you try to argue that perspective of the term to the tradesmen I know.

Now you could argue that the term finish means something different in the knife industry, as does the term custom for example, which has a pretty convoluted defination. However as noted, it isn't universal because I never had a maker take the approach you describe.

They always understand and I never defined it in detail, I usually just say something like "No, it is a user, don't do any finish work." when they ask how I want the blade finished and not once have they ever argued it or sent me blades with major flaws and said "Well you said finish doesn't matter."

And yes, as I stated earlier I would not pay to increase the finish on a working knife, for the same reason I would not pay to have a mirror polish applied to a sledge hammer.If someone wants to do it fine, I would not pay to have it done.

Simply because it takes more time does not mean it automatically is worth more, again from the point of view of a working tool. And again as noted, if you take that logic it leads you to odd places just like your defination of prejudice makes every decision/statement ever made a prejudiced one.

-Cliff
 
I strongly suggest a refersher course in basic logic 101. To determine if you can make assumptions on my logic. Trust me I use logic in my profession of software development of 30 + years and the extension that you are making is not valid. As a matter of fact both times you have exteneded it shows exactly how ludicrous the extension is.

Prejudice = pre judged. Sorry Cliff that is the definition. If you have not had experience with something and give an answer that should be based on experience. The answer is pre judged by the lack of experince. That is basic and simple.

As far as finish there you go in circles again.

Blade Satin finish, etc. You stated finish has no effect on a working knife.
That is not a correct statement and it does not matter if you only directed it towards a Sebenza or all working knives.

Handle finsish - I am not talking about materials here I am talking about the finish on a handle no matter what the material. You stated finish has no effect on a working knife. That is not a correct statement and it does not matter if you directed it towards a Sebena or all working knives.

I noticed that you neglected to answer two yes or no questions. I wonder why.
 
And yes, as I stated earlier I would not pay to increase the finish on a working knife, for the same reason I would not pay to have a mirror polish applied to a sledge hammer.If someone wants to do it fine, I would not pay to have it done.
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Seems that you do not grasp the actual point that I have been making from the very beginning. I am not asking if you would pay for it. :rolleyes: That has nothing to do with the point.

Let me restate my point very clearly so that it can be understood. (So far it is obvious that you have not understood my point.)

Identical knives on a table made by same maker/factory except for finish.

One has a finer finish than the model of the same knife. (This has been done.) Your refusal to answer that leads me to conclude that you do not expect to pay for the difference, I would expect to pay more for the finer finish if that is what you/I wanted.) Cliff just pretend that you wanted the finer finished knife. Are you saying that you do not expect the price to be higher. (That has nothing to do with wanting it or paying for it.)

I'll leave it up to anyone who reads this as to whose expectations are more reasonable, but I think it is quite obvious.

Bottom line. My point is that finish is relevant on any knife "working or non workign" (including Sebena).
 
Bastid said:
I strongly suggest a refersher course in basic logic 101. To determine if you can make assumptions on my logic. Trust me I use logic in my profession of software development of 30 + years and the extension that you are making is not valid. As a matter of fact both times you have exteneded it shows exactly how ludicrous the extension is.

Prejudice = pre judged. Sorry Cliff that is the definition. If you have not had experience with something and give an answer that should be based on experience. The answer is pre judged by the lack of experince. That is basic and simple.
. . .
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I defer to you, Sir, regarding computer programming, but in commonly accepted English usage, coming to a conclusion based on incomplete/incorrect data is not necessarily "prejudice."

It may be wrong, but not "pre-judged." Any number of people can come to different - if incorrrect -decisions based upon the same incomplete/incorrect data.

Unless they have a preconcieved judgment based upon overgeneralization, they are not exhibiting "prejudice." (An example of prejudice would be, "Cliff/Bastid says it so it must be wrong.")

Indeed, a prejudiced judgment may reached inspite of complete and correct data because the overgeneralization trumps the data.

Is it important to call people correct names when name-calling? Probably not.
 
I'll defer to you on the language :).

Is an incorrect answer to a question based on limited experience a prejudiced answer?

My thought and it might be wrong is that the answer is prejudiced by the experience.
 
Good god, the amount of pedantic nitpicking is amazing.
When every single little point has to be specifically spelled out instead of people using common sense, what is the point?
How could anyone find bickering like that entertaining or get any enlightenment of any kind?

Obviously the frickin' fit & finish on the Sebenza jacks up the price, and the point is if you are going to acually use the thing like an average knife person, it's pointless to pay for it because it's immediately destroyed.

Of course, if your use is cutting thread and a sandwich or two every now & then, and maybe even opening a box, well, needless to say the finish will last quite a long time for your friends to admire. This type of use is typical, as seen in numerous threads here. So, I guess for most it's not quite pointless to pay for the fit & finish on a couple of slabs of Ti and a piece of steel, but for the average user who actually uses a knife as a tool, it's completely pointless.
That point was obvious, and yet some just don't seem to understand even the basics.
 
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