Is this 'batoning' and firewood chopping with a knife a passing trend?

sodak said:
Right here is one of the unspoken causes of disagreements. a 2 lb axe is completely different than a hatchet. They cannot be put into the same category...
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Sure they can. Why not? Both are edged tools designed to chop and split. One weighs a pound, the other two. No team of forensic examiners would be able to say with any certainty which piece of split or chopped wood was cut by which.
 
Blackie Scantling said:
Sure they can. Why not? Both are edged tools designed to chop and split. One weighs a pound, the other two. No team of forensic examiners would be able to say with any certainty which piece of split or chopped wood was cut by which.
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And one guy was worried about carrying both a lighter and a firesteel because of the extra weight...
 
"What if you don"t have . . . .?" The existence of that question is a major factor in the presence of a survival situation,. After all, if you have everything you need, what's the problem?

Splitting wood with a large knife blade (froe) shingled most of the buildings on this continent before the invention of the modern shingle. And the method was brought from Europe. So, being centuries old, it is not exactly a recent fad. Obviously, some knives are better than others, but you have what you have WTSHTF.

I was taught the technique over fifty years ago in survival training at Barstow, California. The MGS instructing emphasized caution and demonstrated how easy it was to break a MK II with poor technique. I have used the method since as needed and with no adverse consequences to any blade.

Wood can also be split using a saw - if you know the simple technique. I've done that too.

Welcome here, where there are "expert outdoorsmen" with wider knowledge, collectively, and open minds.
 
Blackie Scantling said:
Sure they can. Why not? Both are edged tools designed to chop and split. One weighs a pound, the other two. No team of forensic examiners would be able to say with any certainty which piece of split or chopped wood was cut by which.
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If you can't see the difference between a full sized axe and a hatchet, then then I'm wasting my time here. I'll leave you with this:

IMO, a 2 lb axe is utterly useless and unnecessary dead weight for camping. Period. I also have knives that will out-chop any hatchet that I have (and probably any that you have) by a wide margin. I have saws that are very light to carry that will go through wood much faster than either knives or hatchets.

I'm building a campfire, not a log cabin.

Do whatever you like. I certainly will.
 
sodak said:
If you can't see the difference between a full sized axe and a hatchet, then then I'm wasting my time here. I'll leave you with this:

IMO, a 2 lb axe is utterly useless and unnecessary dead weight for camping. Period. I also have knives that will out-chop any hatchet that I have (and probably any that you have) by a wide margin. I have saws that are very light to carry that will go through wood much faster than either knives or hatchets.

I'm building a campfire, not a log cabin.

Do whatever you like. I certainly will.
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No, you're wasting my time when you say I can't see the difference between an ax and a hatchet. What I'm saying is they're not "completely different" as you said which is complete baloney and a further waste of my time. I've taken, used and have known others who have been on long campouts and canoe trips who have taken and used an ax.

John Graves wrote in his legendary book "Goodbye to a river" how he would beach his canoe, set up camp and start cutting his firewood with, like so many before him that pioneered that river, his ax. There is no mention of some cool boomerang shaped gurkha blade knife or him wishing he'd brought one because the ax he used to cut and split drift logs of cottonwood and other dead trees was all of a sudden "utterly useless." Adios.
 
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Blackie Scantling said:
Well maybe it's a regional thing Midnight Flyer. Because I grew up hunting and working with a rowdy element called cedar choppers, a bunch of Scots Irish woodsmen that haven't evolved much since their ancestors shot and cut their way through the Appalachians. They make their living with chainsaws and axes which includes selling firewood that includes split firewood. Some of the older ones still use wood stoves. I've never seen one of them use a knife to "process" wood, even when we were camping. Here in Texas, other than cedar which isn't considered fireplace or stove wood, our oak and mesquite are too hard and fine grained to split with anything but an ax or maul.
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Too true. Folks don't realize how diverse our weather is here and there are places in the northern end of the state that are completely frozen over many times a year. Covered with snow and ice, staying at home with no work, planning my schedule around the weather isn't for me. I live in the southern end of the state in San Antonio. Around here (as you probably know) we have plenty of oak and mesquite, and both are miserably hard, gnarly and knotty. (Our oaks are not the majestic oaks seen in the northeastern USA.) Many is the time I have buried a splitting wedge followed by another halfway into a stump of live oak that won't cleave. Great for small wood projects, tool handles, and mallets, mesquite and our Texas oaks are miserable for just about anything else but barbecue.

The only time I see it as firewood these days is when it is saw cut and split with a hydraulic splitter. I have split a lot of oak and mesquite when I didn't have money for heat in my youth, but even with its excellent burn qualities it is much more trouble than it is worth do split manually.


chiral.grolim said:
If mesquite is so difficult to split, I'm thankful it ain't around here! But what are those Texans heating against?? 40-50 degrees? Spending the effort to harvest heat from wood like that against temperatures that high... seems like your putting more energy IN than you get OUT :o
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Depends on where you are in the state. In the panhandle it gets around zero a few times a year. Down south in my end, never. I hits the teens for a few days every few years, and about 75 miles north of here is snows every year. For the most part, our winters are pretty moderate with 20s being considered pretty cold (tonight the forecast is 28F).

But your assessment is correct; you put more into the wood than you get out if you are splitting oak and/or mesquite by hand. There simply is no "processing" of that stuff.

Robert
 
My modified Ontario machete easily chops, fells, limbs,, clears brush, batons, carves, shaves feather sticks, throws a spark, and works as a drawknife. But I use it for bushcrafting, not for commercially processing the petrified forests of that frozen wasteland that is Texas, with over-compensating irishmen right out of a monty python skit.
 
Shotgun said:
<snip>

I've also had too many conversations with backpackers who are more hardcore than I am who wouldn't even consider something more than a sak for a week long trip in the middle of winter in the Cascades. If you're focus is on your cutting tools rather than your insulating layers than you BET you've already started the trip making bad decisions.

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Its been my experience that backpackers here tend to carry everything they need with them , and yes , a SAK is probaly overkill since the hardest thing they would need to cut is their sammich they made with the stuff they haul with them .. , often enough ( and I love em for it ) they have a no traces philosophy more or less , they haul their crap in , they haul it out again with them

their knife needs will be geared toward opening packets and making sammiches , their energy spent on humping pack around I guess .

People who camp / spend time outdoors not backpacking , may have different knife needs , more directed to their activies .

This isnt saying that humping pack is wrong , or that not humping pack , hardcore humping or not , is wrong either

Just observing different needs based on different styles of living outdoors .

I dont get the bit about focus on layers , its topping 90F at 9pm here .. no breeze and really high humidity ... Im taking your word for it that Im off to a bad start :)
 
Myal said:
....they have a no traces philosophy more or less , they haul their crap in , they haul it out again with them...
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Everyone of us who enjoys the outdoors should have as little impact and leave as little trace as possible. That's just practicing good stewardship.

It truly bothers me to see trees needlessly chopped down. I see posts on BF to the effect of, "I chopped down an X inch tree with nothing but my knife." My first thought is, "Why?" or "That Sucks."


And "wood processing"? Come on, folks. There are valid reasons our fathers and grandfathers used terms like "cutting" and "splitting".
 
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I grew up around the Great Lakes and when I would cut firewood for my parents, I kept a chainsaw, axe, wedge, bow-saw, hatchet and splitting maul in the back of my truck.

I split my time between the Upper Mid-West and the Caribbean now. I don't cut firewood anymore but yesterday I was clearing some trees that had fallen on a downhill path. The trees were covered with vines and were both hard and soft wood. I had a 20 inch bow saw, an axe and a 14 inch chopper with me. I was only about 100 yards from my garage.

I found that for clumsy stances while cutting; cutting off thick branches that I had to hold in one hand while chopping with the other; and cutting through the thick growth of vines that were at shoulder height, the chopper wasn't the ONLY tool that I could use. But it was the only tool that I WANTED to use.

It was also easier keeping up with just the one tool.
 
I would venture a guess that batoning has taken a foothold due its technique safety. Stopping the inertial energy of a knife mid swing in an emergency (ie you are about to chop your thumb/foot/whatever off) is easier than an axe because the weight of a knife is balanced from butt to tip pretty evenly when compared to the universally head heavy axe whose inertial energy is almost impossible to stop once launched ( the very principle that makes it efficient to process wood).
 
BigBert said:
Use whatever tool will get you off your couch and out into the woods!!
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Amen.

I like knives. I get more enjoyment chopping down a tree with my BIG KNIFE than I would with a hatchet. Hatchet feels like work, knife feels like fun.
If you will get up and get out there to go chop some stuff with your knife, that's all the reason that is needed. I myself have small trips out in the woods just to do some light clearing/chopping with my new knives.
 
Dirtknap said:
My modified Ontario machete easily chops, fells, limbs,, clears brush, batons, carves, shaves feather sticks, throws a spark, and works as a drawknife. But I use it for bushcrafting, not for commercially processing the petrified forests of that frozen wasteland that is Texas, with over-compensating irishmen right out of a monty python skit.
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"Frozen" wasteland? I think you have your map turned upside down.
 
Jim Bowie took on four men in the famous "sand bar fight" in what started as a fair one-on-one knife duel. He killed or maimed all four with his soon to be famous big knife which was a Natchez looking blade without guards. One assailant supposedly got his head baton'd.
 
Blackie Scantling said:
John Graves wrote in his legendary book "Goodbye to a river" how he would beach his canoe, set up camp and start cutting his firewood with, like so many before him that pioneered that river, his ax. There is no mention of some cool boomerang shaped gurkha blade knife or him wishing he'd brought one because the ax he used to cut and split drift logs of cottonwood and other dead trees was all of a sudden "utterly useless." Adios.
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If you haul everything around in a canoe or truck than you might as well throw in a 2 lb. axe, especially if you spend a long time traversing a large area. I keep one in my truck just in case. Good luck finding a place to do any canoeing like that in Texas now without being arrested for trespassing:D I love my "cool boomerang shaped gurkha blade knife(s)". They perform well enough on living and dead mesquite. I don't chop down large trees though. Small seasoned mesquite logs split easily enough with these knives as well. Live oak? That stuff is so dense it hardly burns. It just smolders forever then puts itself out! It is definitely better suited to powertools. In Texas, I personally believe the large blade or machete to be a lot more useful for hiking or weekend camping. Unless car camping, I can't imagine carrying an axe. A nice light khukuri or ESEE Junglas will take care of the brush you're most likely to encounter here and remove small limbs from trees if needed. I can't imagine using an axe to clear a trail. The large knife will also peform plenty well at handling typical short-term campsite woodworking chores.

With all that said, you may have tons more experience camping than I do and have a lot to teach me/us. The great thing about BladeForums is folks can come here and learn from everyone else. The bad thing about BladeForums is I log on to enjoy some reading and photos while drinking my coffee, and instead get regularly told that if I do something one way or use a certain tool it's because my "skills" suck or I'm just stupid. And since it's the internet I never know if the person telling me I'm dumb is qualified to make that call (special forces SERE instructor Vietnam hero mountain explorer), or if it's an eigth-grader in Sheboygan stirring up crap:) I much prefer to see how others are doing things and decide for myself if I'm stupid;) Take care.
 
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