Is this 'batoning' and firewood chopping with a knife a passing trend?

[DOC-CANADA]

It is one thing to question. It is another to denounce. The second has a sharply reduced chance of leading to a profitable exchange of ideas and experiences.

I consider the OP's statement, in clear intent and effect, to be that one does not see batoning when in the company of "expert outdoorsmen." So if you baton, you are less.

We have seen over the years where such words lead. We have had members leave. We have had members banned. Threads have been locked.

Maybe, in the interest of learning, some people should be willing to allow that others may have different opinions and experiences and still be within the range of the acceptable.

Then we might avoid unhelpful comments such as the opinion that if you don't have an axe, need to cut wood, and do so with a knife, you are "ill prepared, or just want to beat on stuff." (Not that some do not baton "just to beat on stuff." Look at the tree being used as a "baton" above.)

I respectfully suggest that if you think you will always have the "ideal tool" in an emergency, you need more experience with Murphy.

Any "expert" who is ignorant of batoning isn't much of an expert. Even if they choose brittle knives or live in a warm climate full of dry sticks, they should at least be aware of age-old traditional techniques. Maybe OP can go back and teach these "experts" something with his new-found knowledge.

:thumbup: Maybe the OP can also teach the likes of Ray Mears, Ron Hood (RIP), Chris Janowsky (RIP), Les Stroud, George Jasper, Jeff Randall, Cody Lundin, Mors Kochanski, and the list goes on that what they consider a viable survival technique is not. Not to mention the manufacturers who consider batoning of their product an acceptable practice defeating the argument that it is using the knife for something it's not intended to do.

I've been playing in the woods in one way or another for almost all of my 67 years and there was a lot of batoning that went on, although we didn't call it that. A totally effective and safe technique if coupled with a bit of common sense. (Maybe that's the problem??)

Axes? I'd love to be able to use one but unfortunately have a herniated disc. I notice that physical restrictions were never mentioned in this thread. Thought I would toss that in. Hatchets? Been there, done that, as they say, just not for me. YMMV.

And has been said before, if you don't like it, don't do it.

Doc

 

[rickc71]

It's a skill. Like any other useful bit of outdoor knowledge. Someday you may need it,most times you probably won't. Knowledge is never a bad thing. I prefer to process wood with a small axe or tomahawk. When I am overnight(or longer)camping or hiking I have an axe or hawk with me. Even on a day hike I usually have a hawk in my pack along with a small to medium (3-5") fixed blade on my belt. It's just my preferred piece of gear,so that is what I use most for wood processing. I have several large choppers and make great use of them when I truck camp with the family,but honestly,even then I prefer a hawk or axe for wood processing. Use what works best for you,others will use what works best for them. Nobody is right or wrong if the work gets done safely and everybody comes home alive and in one piece.

 

[shunsui]

Wetterlings Axes, Julia Kalthoff Interview at SHOT Show 2013

What a cutie. I'd work cheap for her.

I think she just sold an axe or two.

 

[neeman]

What amazes me about this thread is the amount of responses to a topic that has been battoned to death.

 

[panzertroop]

So many miss the point of batoning. It's a skill that can be used when tools are limited. It will also yield a one stick fire very fast. Batoning gets to dry inner wood quickly and then produces kindling quickly with one small belt carried tool. It is a tool in your toolbox and like to practice it.

What's the big deal?

 

[Last Visible Canary]

Saw and knife. Saw is much more efficient than either at falling a tree, and a fixed blade is safer when you are exhausted or hypothermic, as you never once swing it.

Also if you are sugar crashing, or weak to ths point of trembling from hand usage on other tasks, and when you have excellent rounds that are.to big to burn, too thick to split without a big swing, and nowhere or way to stabalize it to split it with an axe without that axe sinking straight into rocky soil.

I can split a peice of fallen wood thats irregularly shaped from having naturally split/fallen/broken off much safer with a long knife than I can with an axe or hatchet. And I dont have to worry about the knife breaking anymore than blowing out my axes edge when it slams into a rock because I have no chopping platform.

 

[neeman]

So many miss the point of batoning. It's a skill that can be used when tools are limited. It will also yield a one stick fire very fast. Batoning gets to dry inner wood quickly and then produces kindling quickly with one small belt carried tool. It is a tool in your toolbox and like to practice it.

What's the big deal?

Absolutely
A 5 minute fire by battoning with a 3" blade

A small folding saw cutting off 2" diameter hand length branches
Split into kindling by battoning, and then feathered
No stress on the knife
And a quick easy fire

 

[Shotgun]

Are you going to carry a suitcase full of different weight cloths of different insulation ratings to match temperature and activity changes or do you wear everything at once?

Are you joking or just arguing for the sake for arguing? A suitcase? How many times have you been camping again? It's not difficult to dress for the weather. That's day one stuff. LOL

 

[midnight flyer]

What amazes me about this thread is the amount of responses to a topic that has been battoned to death.

Yeah, this thread is getting ripe, too. Inevitably, as it has been with all the other threads on batoning, the guys seem to turn on one another making it personal, then the mods come in and shut it down. I think the clock is ticking on this one.

Robert

 

[shanny19]

What amazes me about this thread is the amount of responses to a topic that has been battoned to death.

I think it's because either side has SUCH a hard time picturing the opposing viewpoint.
You either grew up with axe skills or you didn't.
You either recreate where fuel is plentiful or you don't.
I can safely say that I will never, ever baton. EVER.
Some here can safely say they will never, ever pack an axe into the woods. EVER.
To each his own.....

 

[Thomas Linton]

Sadly, midnight flyer is accurate.

What is so hard about understanding that there can be different preferences, each of which works for its advocate? Is it really necessary for axe-first guys (I rarely see it the other way.) to denounce the other guys' preferences as PURE EVIL/TOTAL IDIOCY?

You can watch videos of Kochanski using a hand axe, axe, saw, and knife - including batoning. All good. I suspect he would just say he is teaching us to use what we might have available at the time.

 

[neeman]

Thomas,
Unfortunately too true that some people can only have a valid opinion if they negate the other person, not even the other opinion
An inablity to hold two different opinions simulaniously

But a couple of years ago there was a thread here on battoning
It was a very polite and healthy discussion
I knew very little about battoning, and I asked lots of questions and learnt alot about how to and what are the limitation

And I have incorperated battoning as a very useful skill set

 

[Rat Finkenstein]

I think it's because either side has SUCH a hard time picturing the opposing viewpoint.
You either grew up with axe skills or you didn't.
You either recreate where fuel is plentiful or you don't.
I can safely say that I will never, ever baton. EVER.
Some here can safely say they will never, ever pack an axe into the woods. EVER.
To each his own.....

You can choose not to use common skills. You could also say you will never whittle a stick to a point. EVER.

To baton or not, is like saying to make a fuzz stick or not. Why should I, when I have this lighter fluid?

Grasping simple concepts is easy. Add it to your knowledge base. . . oops, you already have just by knowing what batoning is.
It's also an axe skill. Knowing stuff is not a bad thing.

 

[shanny19]

You can choose not to use common skills. You could also say you will never whittle a stick to a point. EVER.

To baton or not, is like saying to make a fuzz stick or not. Why should I, when I have this lighter fluid?

Grasping simple concepts is easy. Add it to your knowledge base. . . oops, you already have just by knowing what batoning is.
It's also an axe skill. Knowing stuff is not a bad thing.

I agree with you. Knowledge is great. I think that what might strike such a visceral reaction into the heart of non-batoners, is the way that batoning as a survival skill escaped into the recreational mainstream. Most guys who know which grubs to eat in a survival situation don't eat them camping. Most guys who can polish the bottom of a coke can into a firestarter in a survival situation use a lighter camping. And batoning, a great way to split wood without a splitting tool in a survival situation, somehow became an alternative to having a splitting tool. For reasons some practical, but also some faddish. I shouldn't have said I'll never baton. I should have said, I would only baton if I need a fire in a hurry and there's not an Axe around. Which in my line of work, in my style of play, and in my neck of the woods is improbable at best.

 

[Tallahassee]

I grew up on a large farm, split a lot of wood, dropped & cut up a lot of trees, fed many fireplaces for a lot of years, went through Scouts and backpacked all over the USA without ever hearing the term 'baton-ing' until I encountered it on the Internet and knife forums a few years ago.

It seems to be an internet-fueled fad, encouraged by forums and some over the top youTube videos. Nothing wrong with that, and hammering a tough knife through some soft wood is a useful trick to know.

I agree with the other posters that picking up deadwood is usually a much easier/simpler solution. Also, most camping situations, even cold weather emergencies, don't require huge bonfires. Baton-ing is a pretty good way to risk destroying your precious knife in some emergency situation just when you need it most. So, don't.

 

[Tallahassee]

There are some great new folding ultralight wood burning backpacking stoves. They are designed to burn small twigs, pine cones, small wood chips/shavings, the kind of 'tree debris' most areas have in abundance and that would not make good open 'campfires'. Using a stove lets you concentrate the heat in one area for cooking and warmth, shelter it from wind, and when you're done just tap out the ash and fold it up.

My favorite is the EmberLite. 3x4", folds completely flat, sturdy. $39 and 11 oz in stainless steel, $69 and 6 oz in titanium. Using random found twigs it will boil a pint cup of water in about 7 minutes.
Another good design is the Folding FireBox. Vargo also makes one that is very popular, although I prefer the EmberLite by far. Lots of youTube reviews and Amazon reviews for all of these models.

Get one, toss it flat in your daypack and you won't need to baton anything. Just a tip.

 

[Rat Finkenstein]

I agree with you. Knowledge is great. I think that what might strike such a visceral reaction into the heart of non-batoners, is the way that batoning as a survival skill escaped into the recreational mainstream. Most guys who know which grubs to eat in a survival situation don't eat them camping. Most guys who can polish the bottom of a coke can into a firestarter in a survival situation use a lighter camping. And batoning, a great way to split wood without a splitting tool in a survival situation, somehow became an alternative to having a splitting tool. For reasons some practical, but also some faddish. I shouldn't have said I'll never baton. I should have said, I would only baton if I need a fire in a hurry and there's not an Axe around. Which in my line of work, in my style of play, and in my neck of the woods is improbable at best.

texting, tweeting, derping or whatever people do these days is annoying to me, and I can say I will never do it.
As far as batoning goes, I do it sometimes. I used it just the other day with a machete to split a walnut block for a woodcarving. An axe would not have worked. sometimes you need precision.

As to people afraid to break their knife, maybe they should have practiced more, or purchased a knife that is not flimsy and brittle. A mora can baton sticks without damage, so what are people using? Ceramic paring knives?

 

[Thomas Linton]

I grew up on a large farm, split a lot of wood, dropped & cut up a lot of trees, fed many fireplaces for a lot of years, went through Scouts and backpacked all over the USA without ever hearing the term 'baton-ing' until I encountered it on the Internet and knife forums a few years ago.

It seems to be an internet-fueled fad, encouraged by forums and some over the top youTube videos. Nothing wrong with that, and hammering a tough knife through some soft wood is a useful trick to know.

I agree with the other posters that picking up deadwood is usually a much easier/simpler solution. Also, most camping situations, even cold weather emergencies, don't require huge bonfires. Baton-ing is a pretty good way to risk destroying your precious knife in some emergency situation just when you need it most. So, don't.

Hi Florida.

I know it's a slow business to read the posts in a thread before posting yourself, but it helps with context.

I never heard "batoning" until a few years ago. It was "splitting wood with a knife" when I was taught the technique at a formal survival course almost fifty years ago. It is possible that there was a film back then that showed splitting wood with a knife, but there surely were no YouTube videos or Internet forums around. (Although there were some "computers" around - occupied entire floors of buildings.)



Relatively few went into into "wilderness" back then as compared to the Waist Belt era. Packs were suspended form your shoulders only by 1.5" thin canvas straps. Backpacking hurt some. So fewer to be interested in wilderness survival.

I suppose I have used "batoning" a dozen times over the decades. I only used my knife as a shovel once.

"Picking up" dead wood for a fire is something I recall from California. Not so much in Ohio and PA. Even less in western Washington. Situations alter cases, which is good to understand.

The collective experience here and among world-class experts noted above is that, assuming good technique (99% common sense), knives easily baton wood. I have never damaged a knife batoning. Did take a chunk out of an edge chopping - my own damn fault. But, yes, you see some wild stuff on the Internet. (Opinions by those who have never tried are not "experience." They are prejudging.)

Survival is, in pertinent part, about adapting and improvising. That is not a fad. People who say "never" about what they would do if their life was on the line either don't mean it or will have reduced odds of dealing well with the unexpected crisis.

 

[Shotgun]

Sadly, midnight flyer is accurate.

What is so hard about understanding that there can be different preferences, each of which works for its advocate? Is it really necessary for axe-first guys (I rarely see it the other way.) to denounce the other guys' preferences as PURE EVIL/TOTAL IDIOCY?

The real kicker is that this argument of gear and technique is an old argument. Kephart and Nessmuk both wrote how crazy arguments would get around outdoors people. Just rehashing history.

"Picking up" dead wood for a fire is something I recall from California. Not so much in Ohio and PA. Even less in western Washington. Situations alter cases, which is good to understand.

Exactly. You should train on how to start a fire with nothing but if you've lived in my neck of the woods for any amount of time you'll quickly realize you can spend an hour or two babying a fire because everything around you is drenched, or you can split a few sticks and get it going really well in a half an hour. It's simple, effective, and requires you to carry only 1/5th the weight of a hatchet or "the right tool"...whatever that is.

 

[Shotgun]

Baton-ing is a pretty good way to risk destroying your precious knife in some emergency situation just when you need it most. So, don't.

Not to pick on you but I've heard it said often that "you risk breaking your most important tool" when batoning comes up. Can someone clarify that for me? My problem with that statement is 3 fold.

1) I don't believe that a knife is your most important tool. Backpackers all over the world including people who make money doing it don't carry anything but a keychain knife so how important is it really? I like knives and see there value but even I don't place it in my top 5 of must haves when I go for a hike.

2) If a knife did break...so what? I've yet to find a picture of a knife that has disintegrated from batoning. Every pic of a broken knife I've seen has IMO still been useful. Not as easy to use maybe as it once was but a sharp edge is a sharp edge.

3) And the one that really doesn't make sense to me. If it WERE so important, why on earth would you only have one? I mean let's put aside for a moment the fact that this is BLADEforums where you would be hard pressed to find anyone here who only carries one knife in the woods, regardless of need... If this was your A number one most important tool, where's the backup?