Is waterjetting a no no in custom handmade knives?

sirupatespecial said:
Nothing wrong at all with Mid-tech. But somewhere they cease to be "handmade". Busse and Survive come to mind. Emerson and Brous? in folders. Bunch of examples. Great knives. But not handmade. In My Opinion!!

I personally like supporting "the little guys". But heck, you could grow into the next Busse!
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See that's the thing... The values come up again here. I have no real interest in ever taking on an employee! Introducing more tech/automation into my process is interesting for me because it would potentially allow me to reach a wider audience while still maintaining quality and 100% ownership (and responsibility) for what comes out of my shop.

That means I can make sure the everything going out meets my standards, and if something goes wrong then I can fix it because ultimately it was me that made the mistake. Everything will still spend quite a bit of time in MY hands and I think that's important.
 
Kevin Jones said:
As far as degree of sophistication, comparing a power hammer to a CNC machine is like comparing a manual typewriter to a laptop.
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And I think we would both agree that neither one of them produces a hand-written document. Just like neither a power hammer nor a CNC machine produces a hand-made knife.

So I am glad that you see my point. :p


Kevin Jones said:
In addition, using a power hammer still requires an abundance of knife making skill from the operator to profile a good blade. The machine is just reducing the manual labor as opposed to swinging a hammer.

On the other hand, the operator of a CNC machine is more using technical skills to program the machine and the machine is profiling the blade.
A substantial difference IMO.
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Why do you call someone who comes up with a three dimensional knife design, and then translates that three dimensional design into a series of operations to be performed, and then translates each of those operations into a set of instructions for the CNC machine to perform in order to realize a knife that achieves that three dimensional knife design, merely an "operator."

Although he is using a milling machine rather than waterjetting, I think that Nathan the Machinist's recent WIP thread here is relevant. Did you happen to read that thread? In it, one can see all of the thought he has to put into how he programs the machine to operate so it can produce the knife he wants with the profile that he has designed for it, the custom jigs or fixtures he has to make, the decisions regarding which tool to use at what point, how to orient the blank for each of the various steps, whether to use a coolant or not, etc.

I think Les George's post on that thread said it well: "No way! I hear that when you have a CNC the machine does all the work for you! Youre supposed to be drinking coffee and screwing knives together... You must be doing it wrong!!!"

I don't think I would merely consider him an "operator." Nor is he merely a computer programmer writing some kind of C+ computer program. It seems like there is a wee more to it than that.

However, I do not consider the result to be a hand-made knife. Any more than I consider a knife made using a power hammer to be a hand-made knife. IMO, both require "an abundance of knife making skill." Not a knock on either tool, and I have knives made by a lot of different methods, including using power hammers, using waterjets, etc. But I just do not believe that either one is truly hand-made. Of course, YMMV
 
The Virginian said:
Why do you call someone who comes up with a three dimensional knife design, and then translates that three dimensional design into a series of operations to be performed, and then translates each of those operations into a set of instructions for the CNC machine to perform in order to realize a knife that achieves that three dimensional knife design, merely an "operator."
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Because that's what they are; an operator with a great amount of skill as I stated in a previous post. I guess you missed that one. ;)

Merriam-Webster
op•er•a•tor; noun \ˈä-pə-ˌrā-tər, ˈä-ˌprā-\ : a person who uses and controls something (such as a machine, device, or business) : someone who operates something

Kevin Jones said:
Running and programing a CNC machine takes a great amount of skill, however more of a technical nature than traditional knife making skills. My point was not that that it didn't require skill to run a CNC machine but that the CNC machine profiles the blade, the power hammer just provides the force to help the knife maker physically profile the blade.
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I'm all for CNC and water jetting, as being in construction such machines make my life much easier in being able to mass-produce items with a great degree of accuracy. All I'm saying is that personally, I consider a knife made utilizing water jetting - CNC more a 'Custom Knife' as opposed to a 'Handmade Knife'.
 
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So, I kinda threw something out earlier about the distinction perhaps being about a knife being a "One-Of-A-Kind" piece. Perhaps the words, "Custom" and "Hand-Made" are misleading and too generalized. What do you think of that?

For instance, I have a neck-knife I'm getting laser-cut and commercially heat-treated. I don't consider these to be one-of-a-kind knives like my forged-integral kitchen knives. I grind, sharpen and wrap the neck-knives, but they all look the same and are even interchangeable in their sheaths. Perhaps we can agree that knives made with CNC, laser, water-jet where multiple patterns of the same knife are made are not "one-of-a-kind." In a collector's mind that might make a big difference. (Obviously, there is some more thinking that needs to go into this.)
 
The Virginian said:
Why do you call someone who comes up with a three dimensional knife design, and then translates that three dimensional design into a series of operations to be performed, and then translates each of those operations into a set of instructions for the CNC machine to perform in order to realize a knife that achieves that three dimensional knife design, merely an "operator."
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That person is a designer, a programmer and operator. Operating the machine is is easy part!


An artist is not paid for his labor but for his vision.

James Whistler
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Michael Rader said:
Perhaps the words, "Custom" and "Hand-Made" are misleading and too generalized. What do you think of that?
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I thing you are right.
There's just too many terms in custom knives without consensus as to definition. Try to define "Bowie" and see what hornet's nest you stir up. :confused:;)
 
Still an original no matter how the profile is cut. I would cut all my knives with a water jet.... If I had 1 lol
 
I don´t use water jet, but thats just because I have not gotten there yet. I´m going to do it in the near future to save time and be able to offer a more affordable product to my customers.

I spend a lot of time with Stanley Stoltz. In the knife making community he is mostly known as an engraver, but he is also a master gunmaker (he taught with Fabbri) and makes some incredible and very unique knives. In short he is a master with all kind of hand tools. Roughing out things with bandsaws, grinders and manual labour as opposed to using water jet or cnc milling, is something he describes as "work without value". He will much rather spend his limited time on precise handfitting and other operations where the manual labour offers an advantage to the end product.
This is regardless whether we are talking knives or guns.

For me, full disclosure about the way I make my knives, is all that matters. Then the customer can decide whether he wants my product or not.

Brian
 
Gody said:
For me, full disclosure about the way I make my knives, is all that matters. Then the customer can decide whether he wants my product or not.

Brian
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Well said. There is a particular knife podcast out there that spent several hours debating terms and definitions in the hopes of coming up with a set of terms (handmade custom, handmade tech, custom tech, handmade midtech, semi custom, etc etc etc) to for every possible combination into a box.

I asked them why they bothered and they said 'so people can know how the knives are made'. I said, why not just make up a list of like 5-10 questions someone can ask a maker (or put it in survey form and send them out to makers) and let people decide for themselves.
 
Gody said:
Roughing out things with bandsaws, grinders and manual labour as opposed to using water jet or cnc milling, is something he describes as "work without value". He will much rather spend his limited time on precise handfitting and other operations where the manual labour offers an advantage to the end product.


Brian
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Truly, and very well said
 
I spend my time designing & bevel grinding my knives. As mentioned, Bandsawing and grinding ut the same patterns is num skull work.

I have my patterns water jetting of my designs of modern stainless steels and have those Hted by Paul Bos.

I do everything else and tell my customers exactly that! Nuff said!
 
Per the above recent sentiments, I guess we can call Bark River knives a "custom handmade knife maker". What makes you all different, the fact that one to three people do the finishing work, as opposed to ten to fifteen?
 
brownshoe said:
Per the above recent sentiments, I guess we can call Bark River knives a "custom handmade knife maker". What makes you all different, the fact that one to three people do the finishing work, as opposed to ten to fifteen?
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Customs knives can and do come out of handmade cutlery shops, they did it in Sheffield England as well as Soligen Germany for years. Bark River knives are handmade knives and sometimes turn out custom work.
 
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brownshoe said:
Per the above recent sentiments, I guess we can call Bark River knives a "custom handmade knife maker". What makes you all different, the fact that one to three people do the finishing work, as opposed to ten to fifteen?
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Did you drink, eat or smoke some kind of an abrasive agent today? Just wondering?
 
Ever read Ed Fowler? I just read his most recent column in Blade. I do not like his knives but I do share his opinion that there is too much "sameness" in what people call "custom, handmade or art". In his article he was speaking of how "knife world opinon" drives people to imitate and not find their true voice.

He was speaking about knives that were fully hand made. Taking a bunch of precut blanks and handles and using them to make identical knives except for handle material does not meet some people's idea of art or craft.

I have a lot of respect for Bob Terzula who has taken some of these concepts to perfection. When I ordered a ATCF he called it "building" a knife.
 
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