It's not much...

i keep losing blades on ebay :( two ultra fine mandau in the past month , goooone to other people than me

love the second one
 
Great finds Blue, quite an addition to your collection. I just don't seem to be able to convince myself to take a risk on buying antique weapons based on pictures online.

Hope your new ones turn out to be legit and in good shape.
 
Just watched a documentary on a Viking sword (+VLFBERH+T) made of crucible steel over a thousand years ago supposedly between 800-1000AD. Origins of the sword and inscription really speculation French and German? The smith actually makes crucible steel and forges the blade with inlays like the ancient ones used then. Blue and Gehazi esp: I thought you might like this if you havent already seen it.
[video=youtube;FKvRHaJ2w6w]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FKvRHaJ2w6w[/video]
 
Amazing ndoghouse. Great video. So about that time we have +VLFBERH+T made from crucible steel. True Damascene (not the pattern weld stuff we are left with) and Bullat from the Russians of the similar era. And ALL have lost the skills of how to make this. Seems like humans really aren't as bright as we think we are eh?
 
Thanks for the video, I haven't watched it before. I'm watching now. I've read before about crucible and damascus/wootz steel before, it's a fascinating subject.

I read a study done at some university where they actually did comprehensive destructive tests on 6 or 7 ancient wootz/damascus steel spears and swords and compared them to average modern steel made in Solingen. As I recall they found that across the board on all types of tests that the best wootz steel was only about 75% as good as the run of the mill modern steel when it came to hardness, flexibility, etc. So those ancient crucible steels are amazing for the technology and artisanship it took to make them, but the modern steel in your pocket knife is probably better quality than whatever they made Charlemagne's sword from.

On the other hand other people say that these kinds of tests aren't accurate because of the weird molecular structure of wootz steel. If you test a wootz steel sword with a file you're only going to find it has a hardness of like 40RC. But because of the way the molecules are aligned (or something, I don't understand the science behind it) the hardness of the blade over the length of 2 or 3 inches is much higher. So the strength of the segment of blade that you're slicing something with is much higher than what you'd expect by just testing 1mm of it with a file.
 
Furthering my quest to buy every worthless rusty piece of metal ever created, I picked these two guys up. The prices were quite low and nobody bid against me, so I'm of course worried that they're obvious fakes and I'm the only one dumb enough to bid on them.

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First one appears to be a gile knife made by the Afar people, who live in Ethiopia and that area. These things turn up on ebay all the time, but this one's a little more ornate than the usual ones. They're almost always post WW2, I don't think I've ever even read of one being older than that. It sounds like these folks didn't have access to much steel until we started exporting tons of scrap metal. Apparently it's common practice for Afar tribesman to sell their old worn out giles to tourists in the capital and then buy themselves a new one. Since the belt on this one appears to be made of red pleather, I doubt it's that old.
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Second one is a Jambiya from Yemen I assume. I've always wanted one of these, I like the shape of the blade. The belt's cool too. It doesn't look like there's much signs of wear on the belt so it may be a tourist piece that was never used. They're still worn by tribesmen over there but more for their cultural significance than for actual use. I read that the markets over there has been flooded with cheap Chinese made plastic hilted Jambiyas. Since it's a rather poor country the locals have stopped buying the locally made "real" ones. It sounds like the real ones cost like 10 times as much as a plastic one and most folks over there just can't afford it. There's only a few guys left making the real ones now and it doesn't sound like they'll be in business much longer. I have no idea if this one's real or plastic or what.
 
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blue lander said:
Thanks for the video, I haven't watched it before. I'm watching now. I've read before about crucible and damascus/wootz steel before, it's a fascinating subject.
On the other hand other people say that these kinds of tests aren't accurate because of the weird molecular structure of wootz steel. If you test a wootz steel sword with a file you're only going to find it has a hardness of like 40RC. But because of the way the molecules are aligned (or something, I don't understand the science behind it) the hardness of the blade over the length of 2 or 3 inches is much higher. So the strength of the segment of blade that you're slicing something with is much higher than what you'd expect by just testing 1mm of it with a file.
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That would make sense to me. There are many materials in nature that have that characteristic of being harder in one direction than in another (Kyanite,mica, talc...) Its because of the different atomic bonds in the material. If you take for example Mica which is a thin layered rock that peels off in sheets. It is used as an insulator for many older electronics you may have seen (Blues old stereo equip comes to mind) and is also used for high heat windows, among many other things. Anywayz you can peel it apart in one direction with you fingernail because it has a week bond (Van de wahls) in that direction. If you try to pull it apart in another direction it would be practically impossible because of the stronger bond (covalent) in that direction. I dont see why steel in certain alloys and conditions could take on the same or similar structure.

Theres a similar method they use to make Samuri Katanas which demonstrates a phenomenal amount of work. The end results are incredible!

[video=youtube;Jt97sGtZX4s]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jt97sGtZX4s[/video]

I found it very interesting in the way they make the traditional Japanese Samurai Katana versus the way the Everest Katana (Kathimoda) are made. The HI Katana is made using traditional Khukri methods and is convex grind and the Samurai appears to be flat ground. Video is a bit long but not long enough for me:D Very cool stuff!
This all got my attention because the edge of my Katana had a few spots that needed touching up (in my opinion) and I feel fine about having the skills to do that on a Khukri but on a real Japanese Samurai....No way! These guys go to school for half their lives to learn how to do it! Now I feel dumb as a rock!
 
What I found most interesting about that video is that while the narrator is talking about these "mystical" steels, the bladesmith himself is more interested in edge geometry. I think steel chemistry is not nearly as important as temper/hardening and the shape of the cutting edge.

Also, a lot of the effort that they put into making a Katana is because they had to start with really terrible quality iron with tons of impurities in it.
 
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Basically the theory behind the wootz steel is that it contains versions of carbon nanotubes running between the layers of steel that supposedly was what made it have the true damascus look (not the pattern weld stuff we do now and call damascus) that supposedly made it much much stronger than ordinary steel. The carbon allotropes however over time would have broken down as the steel oxidized and due to ionization depending on how/where the blade was stored and so the current destructive tests not taking into account a number of things. The only real way to test it would be if we had the actual recipe and could create new steel with the same method and properties and then attempt destructive tests over larger areas. Steel chemistry IS very important, as you mention Blue, if you start with crap steel you have more work to do to make it useful. If you start with chains of carbon nanotubes, you have very little work to make a stable blade.
 
Almost forgot to mention your point about the bladesmith. Keep in mind that today's bladesmiths are not judged the same way as the ones from older history. A smith these days tries to make his blade as sharp as possible because most of the judging of quality is based on how sharp can I get it and can I cut a bunch of bamboo mats with it? In historical usage, A strong, flexible blade that could keep a decent edge brought your customer back to buy another blade because he survived, where a brittle sharp blade would mean finding a new living customer LOL. Edge geometry plays a part, you can't have a sharp edge with no backing, but steel type, and temper quality/type were also important. I just think at this point modern bladesmiths don't get as into the steel as the other because there are so many steels all in about the same range and you pick one based on exactly what you want for qualities. You don't usually forge your own steel from base iron these days.

BTW I would love it if they locked my into that storage room overnight (the one seen in the video above at about 5:55.
 
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Very good points, I hadn't considered that age might have rendered existing wootz steel to be weaker than it was when it was first made. You read stories of people cutting through a cannon barrel or an entire person and the horse beneath them with a wootz blade. Did that ever happen or is it just myth and legend? Swords broke constantly in battle, even good ones. We think of legendary blades being passed from father to son for generations. But most swords were never used, they weren't your primary weapon in battle even in medieval times, and those that were used were in no condition to fight another day. It's interesting that working "machete" style blades often show signs of decades of usage and multiple resharpenings to the point that most of the original edge has been ground off. You hardly ever see signs of that on a purely fighting sword. You'd think that if they clashed swords inbattle after battle there'd be signs of multiple resharpenings.

There was a guy in the 1950's I think who made knives that could baton through an iron railroad spike several times and were still sharp enough to shave the hair off your arm. He'd travel around the country and do demonstrations. What kind of steel did he use for these miraculous knives? 1095. Their strength came from the heat treatment and edge geometry, not from some mystical steel. As I recall he sold them for around 10 bucks a pop, they're of course worth a fortune now.

On the flip side, the Jambiya I posted above were usually made from extremely soft steel. So soft that they'd sharpen them by pounding the edge with a hammer. It supposedly gave them a sharper edge than you could ever get by traditional sharpening. They could cut skin and clothing better than any other dagger you could find, but the edge would roll if you tried to cut anything harder than flesh.
 
More than likely the cutting cannons or guns in half or cutting a person and horse in half are serious exagerations. Wootz steel probably was not significantly stonger or perhaps not even as strong as the stuff we currently use like 1095. The thing to keep in mind is what kind of steel was commonly used in the cannons and blades of the day? In most cases cannons weren't even steel, brass was used a lot for them so 1095 in those days would have been mystical steel. Think about the entire environment not just the particular blade being used but what is it used on. Also keep in mind most battle swords were not razor sharp. They were fairly dull actually. Here is a video of a guy proving that a blunt bastard sword cuts bamboo almost as well as a katana.

https://search.yahoo.com/search;_yl...ng bamboo comparison katana vs european sword

so sharpening a blade to razor sharpness wasn't in the best interest of anyone. You want to cause huge ragged tears to the opponent and crush through his armor, a scalpel isn't as useful in battle unless you are extremely accurate and can guarantee you are cutting major arteries. Japanese Samurai started as mounted archers. The swords were their backup and their personal protection for when the enemy got close. Secondly they acted as their weapon of choice when enforcing the laws. Usually the people they were hacking up weren't wearing armor such as the Europeans so a sharper sword worked great. European swords such as a bastard sword were not usually sharpened very much at all.
 
Impressive video! Although does that mean a blunt broadsword is almost as effective as a katana, or does it mean bamboo cutting is a poor test of the effectiveness of a sword? It seems like swords were always "plan B" in war rather than the primary weapon. Your plan A would be a poleaxe, pike, spear, axe, etc and later a firearm of course. You'd only whip your sword out if somebody got too close to use your primary weapon.

The European swords I have are all no older than mid 1850's and they're never sharpened. But I think nobody bothered to sharpen them because they were virtually never used in combat even by the early 1800's. Everybody carried them as a symbol of command or whatever, but very few people got the opportunity to use them. It sounds like even bayonet use was pretty rare. Surgical Experiences and Observations as an Ambulance Surgeon in Bulgaria During the Russo-Turkish War of 1877-78 recounts the experience of a field medic who saw thousands of wounded soldiers but only a handful had wounds caused by sword/bayonet. It sounds like if you were infantry and you were overrun by the enemy, you'd either keep shooting at them or you'd run away, and the only use the bayonet got was finishing off soldiers who had been wounded and couldn't retreat. An excerpt:

The first point I would call your attention to is the fact that only very few of the wounded, in modern wars, are wounded by cuts or stabs, so few, indeed, that to one who reads, in newspaper accounts of battles, of desperate charges with the bayonet, of fearful hand-to-hand fights at the taking of redoubts, and so forth, where the imagination pictures the wounded from bayonet stabs at hundreds or more, the real number must appear absurdly, even incredibly, small. In the late Russo-Turkish war, where I had the opportunity of seeing thousands of wounded men, I am sure I did not see more than half a dozen suffering from sword, or sabre, or lance, or bayonet wounds. And all the enquiries I could make did not enable me to come across any one whose experience differed much from my own.
Click to expand...

He goes on to say the bayonet is a crummy weapon anyways and we'd be better off equipping soldiers with khukries or bowie knives.
 
So we have basic concepts, but the sword was used in significantly different ways in Europe vs Asia for styles of warfare then within Europe depending on the timeframe as well. Therefore comparisons can be made but will not really be apples to apples as the way the swords were used were not similar so the "perfect" sword would be different for the different needs.

But yes I guess what i was getting at is that cutting bamboo isn't really a good test of a swords usefulness at the time it was developed. but about all we can do to compare them now.

Also having gone through bayonet training in the army, I can tell you that the recognized way to use them these days is basically stab anything you have already shot to death to make sure. Hand2hand with a bayonet is a joke and likely to get both participants shot by a third party. The only reason they were thought to be more useful than a bowie ect is that mounting them on the end of the rifle basically gives the reach of a spear. So it was a replacement for a spear not a hand2hand blade which is my the usual bayonet was a spike shape not a cutting blade shape. The knife bayonets came about in an attempt to provide 2 weapons for carrying one. Used as a utility knife most of the time, but then mounted for a spear when necessary. from what I have read about WWI trench warfare that is about when the bayonet use began to become obsolete. Prior to that many armies still mounted bayonet charges and that is the reason battle rifles were made excessively long prior to WWI to create advantageous reach during bayonet attacks.
 
Interesting to hear a "first hand" perspective. It seems like military minds used worry a lot about stuff like swords vs bayonets, pistols vs cavalry sabers, straight sabers vs curved sabres. Then WW1 happened and they realized pointy pieces of metal didn't matter much anymore. Cavalry charges and bayonet charges stopped being effective long before WW1, it just took leadership a long time to adjust to the new realities of war.

I've killed about a whole day reading that http://bowieknifefightsfighters.blogspot.com/ blog. It's basically a collection of historical records like newspapers and biographies from the 1800's that have anything to do with knives or swords. It's primarily concerned with newspaper records of bowie fights, but he's got a little bit about everything. Here's a bit about the kind of damage a Jambiya can do to a fellow. It sounds like a skilled user could slice your body cavity open with one strike, cutting your guts in half too.

The corpse was chiefly interesting to me as illustrating the frightful nature of the wound which the terrible jambiyah (Bedawi knife) will inflict. There was a gunshot in the head, and the body was much mutilated with sword-cuts; but the jambiyah wound would have been judged by any one not acquainted with the weapon to have been made with a broad axe. The thorax and abdomen were laid open from just below where the left collarbone joins the breastbone down to the left groin, and all the viscera interposed were severed as with a razor.
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A razor sharp sword might not have been important in battle, but it seems to be a different story when it comes to smaller blades for personal protection. Arabs never parried with their jambiyas nor were they using them to attact armored enemies, so no worries about the strength of the edge.

The Arabs are very expert in its use; they hold it point downwards with curve inward, and in attacking always aim at the supra-sternal notch at the base of the neck, a blow which, if rightly placed, splits open the whole chest wall and is instantly fatal
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Here's another articleabout the one of the first European doctors to teach anatomy in Egypt. Apparently the students thought dissecting a corpse was sacreligious, and one of his students attacked him with a Jambiya. It sounds like you had to hit a guy in exactly the right place or his rib cage would stop the blade...

When Clot-Bey laid out a cadaver before his class and began opening it up, one fanatical student attacked him with his jambiya, slashing downward at his chest. According to his obituary in the Boston Medical and Surgical Journal:

The blade glanced upon the ribs. Clot-Bey felt that he was not seriously hurt. He drew a bandage from his case, and while adjusting it upon the wound, thus addressed the students: - "We were about to speak of the relations of the sternum and the ribs. I will now, however, explain to you why a blow from above, downward, is not likely to penetrate."
Click to expand...
 
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LOL. Love the quote from Clot-Bey as he bandaged himself up. Me, I would have been still running away.

As for the razor sharp blades. That is where the Katana is most impressive. Used as a police weapon (Samurai were the defacto police of that era) against criminals who were wearing regular clothing they were extremely effective. The Arabs rarely wore armor as well, though a few may have had metal rings sewn into thier clothes. So an extremely sharp blade would again be very useful. So the middle east in general would fall more towards the Asian side of arms and armor than the European side. Even though during the Crusades the Moors did use Saracen mail. Very similar to the plated and chainmail of the Europeans and the swords they used were also larger, heavier and blunter as with the European arms.
 
I find it a bit hard to believe you could land the tip of a jambiya square between somebody's rib cage and slice them open lengthwise like that. Especially if it's a moving target. If you missed by a mm or two the blade would be stopped by your ribs like it did with Clot Bey. In that other description of finding a person sliced open with a jambiya, he was also shot in the head and had several other sword wounds. They must have cut him open after they had already incapacitated him. Maybe he was already dead.

View attachment 425111

Still waiting for my jambiya to arrive in the mail, but in the mean time I bought this modern version. The government of Jordan commisioned Scorpion Knives in the UK company to make a modern "tactical" version of the jambiya for their elite soldiers. This is the $20 Chinese knockoff version of it. It's a mean looking dagger, sharp on both edges, full tang with a metal skull crusher spike on the back. But it's really, really heavy probably because of the thick full tang. It's an awfully large and heavy piece of metal to carry around for such a small cutting edge, and most of the weight/size is in the hilt.
 
What is that hilt made of? It looks like it is almost 1 piece casting with the hilt sort of a thin molded over material. I wonder if the original commissioned ones are the same or if they are more of a full length rat tail peened over to create the skull crusher and the hilt a lighter material. Love how they kept the entire hilt looking like an ancient version instead of a "tacti-cool" version even though they made it out of tactical materials.

weight wise it will be interesting to see how it compares to your original one when it gets there. Also interesting to see how the balance is comparing the 2. I am guessing the original will be heavier towards the front of the hilt, the modern version appears to be heavier middle of the hilt.
 
The hilt is full tang, the scales appear to be G10 but they could be any kind of plastic. The tang is probably 1/4th inch thick. The tang is about as long as the blade, but the blade is of course much lighter because of the back edge. I've never handled such a hilt heavy knife. It doesn't make it awkward or difficult to use, it just adds needless weight, slowing you down without adding any extra force to your blows.

The edge grind on it is very un-jambiya too, it's more like a Moroccan koummya http://www.vikingsword.com/ethsword/koummya/. It's like a jambiya and a koummya had a baby.

I am very interested in comparing the weight and balance to the original one, because I can't believe anybody would deliberately design a knife to be so hilt heavy, it has to just be carelessness by the Chinese manufacturer. We'll see how it compares to my "traditional" jambiya. On the other hand, I don't think jambiyas have been used for combat since the 1960's. These days they're just a fashion accessory. I have no idea if my jambiya was made recently or back in "fighting" days.

As much as I'm looking forward to my jambiya, what I really want is an Omani khanjar. http://www.omaninfo.co.uk/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=27:omani-the-khanjar&catid=11&Itemid=127&lang=en they just cost too dang much because of all the silver. The Chinese make cheap ones that are replacing the real ones, but I can't find a place that sells them.

Here's more khanjars: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=14878. I think they're officially my favorite looking knife. They're almost Scifi looking, like something out of Star Wars or Aliens.
 
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I do so dig the ethnographic arms board. though I don't participate, the archives and threads are really really interesting. Hehe, considering the khanjar's malecentric culture, I wonder what they would do if I got one. They are really pretty and since they are mostly fashion these days... lol. I hope you can find one in your budget. I personally have my pocketbook full being an HI noob, but I notice that the HI blades have led me to think pretty interesting thoughts about looking for other well made blades of other cultures. A friend supplied an e-nep already to expand the collection a bit. And I have always had european arms, since hubby collected those. Maybe I will add some Sub-Saharan weaponry to reflect my own heritage though I tend to favor Maghreb weaponry in that realm and truely prefer Asiatic over all. But I have a LOT of HI wants/needs that I prioritize before any of that LOL. I am a noob collector so I have to keep my focus or I could just spin around and around looking at all the pretty weaponry.
 
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