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The BladeForums.com 2024 Traditional Knife is ready to order! See this thread for details: https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/bladeforums-2024-traditional-knife.2003187/
Price is$300$250 ea (shipped within CONUS). If you live outside the US, I will contact you after your order for extra shipping charges.
Order here: https://www.bladeforums.com/help/2024-traditional/ - Order as many as you like, we have plenty.
It's not much...
- Thread starter blue lander
- Start date
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Sweet re-handle job. Pugs. I love the look of the copper.
Looks like I will be waiting on a Parang for a bit. Went back and forth 4 times but never got a chance to buy one. Even asked him to just send me the payment info on whatever one was still available. By the time we got done playing tag all of them were sold.
Good news for my HI collecting though. Means my budget is ready for a small nibble should I happen to be watching when one of those DOTDs comes up (any later and they are already gone)
Looks like I will be waiting on a Parang for a bit. Went back and forth 4 times but never got a chance to buy one. Even asked him to just send me the payment info on whatever one was still available. By the time we got done playing tag all of them were sold.
Good news for my HI collecting though. Means my budget is ready for a small nibble should I happen to be watching when one of those DOTDs comes up (any later and they are already gone)
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- Aug 16, 2011
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- 1,386
Ugh, that stinks! I didn't get one my first time around either, though. I put myself on the mailing list so this time I was the very first in line.
That Bidor rehandle looks awesome. I've always planned on doing micarta for the handle on my other Bidor, but that wood is giving me second thoughts...
What's the deal with deer paw knife handles anyways? You see them all the time on old German hunting knives. Are they just decorative? I can't imagine they'd be usable.
That Bidor rehandle looks awesome. I've always planned on doing micarta for the handle on my other Bidor, but that wood is giving me second thoughts...
What's the deal with deer paw knife handles anyways? You see them all the time on old German hunting knives. Are they just decorative? I can't imagine they'd be usable.
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- Oct 21, 2009
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- 1,977
Alright Pugs! What else you got stashed over there? HI ParangThats a new one on me! I buy one of them in a sec. very nice!
I know nothing!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
the handle is from a cherry limb, when sanded I did not like the color so I painted it flat black then wrapped the epoxied twine around it, guess it does look like a deer hoof.
Thank you, the copper was just what it needed.
these are great blades, I have beat the snot out of them and they are always ready.
Thank you, the wood is so easy, look for a tree limb that kinda shapes to my hand left or right and go from there, my handle is just a slight to the right and fits my left hand perfectly ans is comfy in the right as well.
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- Aug 26, 2010
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My dad used them for gun racks. I remember all the deer feet sticking out of the wall! Always wondered where the rest of the deer was
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- Aug 16, 2011
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Speaking of wood carving, here's another video showing how they make the sheaths for the parangs
[video=youtube;V6F5J1DHnMo]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V6F5J1DHnMo[/video]
at about the 2:35 mark he uses an interesting looking "raut" knife to carve the channel in the sheath.
Here's another video of their "traditional" style furnace.
[video=youtube;bGDf5TmTKE8]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bGDf5TmTKE8[/video]
The beginning of the video mentions that they don't really use these kinds of furnaces anymore and usually buy their tools from a local village. Another video, the one with the hand cranked bellows, said something to the same effect, that they buy parang blades from the local town and just do the tempering and heat treatment in the village. So I gather these parangs were forged in town in a more modern facility, but the heat treatment and sheath/handle are made in the village.
[video=youtube;V6F5J1DHnMo]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V6F5J1DHnMo[/video]
at about the 2:35 mark he uses an interesting looking "raut" knife to carve the channel in the sheath.
Here's another video of their "traditional" style furnace.
[video=youtube;bGDf5TmTKE8]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bGDf5TmTKE8[/video]
The beginning of the video mentions that they don't really use these kinds of furnaces anymore and usually buy their tools from a local village. Another video, the one with the hand cranked bellows, said something to the same effect, that they buy parang blades from the local town and just do the tempering and heat treatment in the village. So I gather these parangs were forged in town in a more modern facility, but the heat treatment and sheath/handle are made in the village.
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- Aug 16, 2011
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- 1,386
Some goodies arrived today...
View attachment 426214
The Fashienmesser and Manding sword!
View attachment 426215
The ciphers on the guard are pretty clear. I believe the big crown is for Frederick William of Prussia. The little crown I think is an inspection proofmark, will have to research more. That "6" should be the date when it was made. It looks like there's a 7 poorly stamped next to it, which would put it at 1867 during the reign of William I. Frederick William IV died in 1861, so maybe it's a 1 rather than a 7?
View attachment 426217
I have no idea what the CH here means, probably another inspection mark.
View attachment 426218
There's another mark on the spine but I think it's too corroded to ever make out. This thing is thick! It's a heavy beast of a blade. There's no fullers and very little distal taper. I bet it was one hell of a chopper. The edge is all dinged up so I guess it saw a full lifetime of use.
View attachment 426219
I'm not sure what to make of the Manding sword. From a distance it looks like a European saber, but the curve of the blade and the point of the tip don't look right at all. The blade's nice and thick, but there's striations and file marks all up and down the blade. If you run your fingers down the sides of the blade you can feel lots of bumps. I wonder if it's a native made blade that was shaped by griding it with a file rather than forging. Or maybe somebody cleaned it very harshly at some point and ground off all the corrosion. The blade doesn't seem to have much patina to it. The scabbard is nice enough, the upper half and the hilt of the blade are both nice and shiny while the bottom is dry and dull. I assume that's from somebody handling the upper parts and rubbing the oils in their hands into it.
View attachment 426214
The Fashienmesser and Manding sword!
View attachment 426215
The ciphers on the guard are pretty clear. I believe the big crown is for Frederick William of Prussia. The little crown I think is an inspection proofmark, will have to research more. That "6" should be the date when it was made. It looks like there's a 7 poorly stamped next to it, which would put it at 1867 during the reign of William I. Frederick William IV died in 1861, so maybe it's a 1 rather than a 7?
View attachment 426217
I have no idea what the CH here means, probably another inspection mark.
View attachment 426218
There's another mark on the spine but I think it's too corroded to ever make out. This thing is thick! It's a heavy beast of a blade. There's no fullers and very little distal taper. I bet it was one hell of a chopper. The edge is all dinged up so I guess it saw a full lifetime of use.
View attachment 426219
I'm not sure what to make of the Manding sword. From a distance it looks like a European saber, but the curve of the blade and the point of the tip don't look right at all. The blade's nice and thick, but there's striations and file marks all up and down the blade. If you run your fingers down the sides of the blade you can feel lots of bumps. I wonder if it's a native made blade that was shaped by griding it with a file rather than forging. Or maybe somebody cleaned it very harshly at some point and ground off all the corrosion. The blade doesn't seem to have much patina to it. The scabbard is nice enough, the upper half and the hilt of the blade are both nice and shiny while the bottom is dry and dull. I assume that's from somebody handling the upper parts and rubbing the oils in their hands into it.
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- Feb 20, 2014
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Fashienmesser was a sapper blade and used for cutting earthenworks as well as personal protection wasn't it? So I undertand the reason it was thick and no fullers. The Manding is pretty long for one of those isn't it? I always thought they seemed to be shorter than a European sabre. This thing looks at least as long as most and longer than some. Would the bumps ect? be part of the hammered scale finish that was then filed smoother but not completely smooth so as to not change the blade shape/thickness too much?
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- Aug 16, 2011
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Yup, it's primarily a tool and only a weapon of last resort. I do wonder why they didn't just equip them with small hatchets, though, since it almost weighs as much as one. Probably because the fashienmesser looks cooler as part of their uniform. Still, it seems like a useful tool and it's quite sturdy. If I sharpened it up it'd probably make a good camping tool.
From what I read Manding swords were almost always made from surplus French and English sabers since the Manding weren't very good blacksmiths. However, I've followed at least 10 Manding sword auctions and I haven't seen a single one with a European saber blade. They were all obviously indigenous and very crudely made. That's why I jumped on this one. I'd say this one is the average length of a European infantry or artillery saber, but it's much more curved than what you usually see in the mid/late 1800's. The bumps are actually more like waves, like the thickness of the blade keeps fluctuating. Maybe it was forged but the blacksmith just wasn't very good at keeping the blade thickness consistent. Or somebody took a file to the blade and scraped off a lot of material, leaving it uneven.
I'm 50/50 on it being a European blade. If it is European, then it was HEAVILY reworked by the Mandings. Like, maybe they took a saber and went to town on it with a file to drastically alter the shape of the blade. The edge is covered in file marks from sharpening and the whole blade is covered in deep grooves I assume from some very harsh cleaning with something like steel wool. I am convinced the tip of the blade was definitely reshaped at some later date. Besides the unnatural looking curve to it, look at the way the fuller ends right before the false back edge starts. One one side the fuller comes to a nice rounded end before the back edge starts.
View attachment 426367
Now, look at end of the fuller on the other side. The back edge starts before the fuller ends so part of it is ground off. I suppose this could just be sloppy craftsmanship, but to me it says the blade once had a "normal" saber end that was later filed down to its current pointy tip.
View attachment 426368
From what I read Manding swords were almost always made from surplus French and English sabers since the Manding weren't very good blacksmiths. However, I've followed at least 10 Manding sword auctions and I haven't seen a single one with a European saber blade. They were all obviously indigenous and very crudely made. That's why I jumped on this one. I'd say this one is the average length of a European infantry or artillery saber, but it's much more curved than what you usually see in the mid/late 1800's. The bumps are actually more like waves, like the thickness of the blade keeps fluctuating. Maybe it was forged but the blacksmith just wasn't very good at keeping the blade thickness consistent. Or somebody took a file to the blade and scraped off a lot of material, leaving it uneven.
I'm 50/50 on it being a European blade. If it is European, then it was HEAVILY reworked by the Mandings. Like, maybe they took a saber and went to town on it with a file to drastically alter the shape of the blade. The edge is covered in file marks from sharpening and the whole blade is covered in deep grooves I assume from some very harsh cleaning with something like steel wool. I am convinced the tip of the blade was definitely reshaped at some later date. Besides the unnatural looking curve to it, look at the way the fuller ends right before the false back edge starts. One one side the fuller comes to a nice rounded end before the back edge starts.
View attachment 426367
Now, look at end of the fuller on the other side. The back edge starts before the fuller ends so part of it is ground off. I suppose this could just be sloppy craftsmanship, but to me it says the blade once had a "normal" saber end that was later filed down to its current pointy tip.
View attachment 426368
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Hehe, Well at the very least it sure is entertaining trying to determine some basic history/pedigree for the Manding. SO I am guessing since you don't mention any, that there are not any markings at all or any that were there have been filed off during the rough "maintenance" it has recieved. THough I think your idea about the rework of the tip certainly appears to be accurate based on the fullers you show. If only there was a way these blades could tell us what their history was...
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Nope, no identifying marks. But if there were any marks they'd be on the ricasso. Assuming this is a European saber and it has a ricasso, that part of the blade is covered by the leather hilt. So if there are any marks they're hidden.
That's why I like these "converted" blades, especially the broken-sword-to-dagger ones, for the story they tell. Once it was a European sword, then it was broken some how (battle?), then it made it to Africa somehow and was made into something else completely. Moroccan swords with European blades are particularly interesting because that's where the Barbary pirates were based. They often raided European ships for slaves and supplies. So a Moroccan sword with European blade might have been acquired in a pirate raid. No way to prove it, but it's fun to think about
That's why I like these "converted" blades, especially the broken-sword-to-dagger ones, for the story they tell. Once it was a European sword, then it was broken some how (battle?), then it made it to Africa somehow and was made into something else completely. Moroccan swords with European blades are particularly interesting because that's where the Barbary pirates were based. They often raided European ships for slaves and supplies. So a Moroccan sword with European blade might have been acquired in a pirate raid. No way to prove it, but it's fun to think about
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So after consulting with people who know about this stuff, it seems like the consensus is that the kind of fuller and blade geometry would not have been something an indigenous blacksmith could have done by hand. So it's most likely a European saber blade, but most likely a parade or dress one rather than an actual combat one. I easily bent the tip of the blade by hand so it wasn't hardened/tempered for actual use. I bent it back straight just as easily, thankfully. These are some side by sides I took.
Between my other Manding sword and an Austrian saber
View attachment 426859
Close up of the two Manding swords. Vastly different workmanship is obvious. The scrap metal Manding sword actually flexes nicely without staying bent, though, It's probably spring steel. I'd rather use it than the European bladed one.
View attachment 426860
The Manding between two other African daggers with Euro blades, all with tips that were ground down to be double sided and pointy.
View attachment 426861View attachment 426862
Up on the wall it goes. I'm out of space again so the Kaskaras go back in their scabbards. I much prefer displaying them with the blades out, so time to do some reshuffling.
View attachment 426863
Between my other Manding sword and an Austrian saber
View attachment 426859
Close up of the two Manding swords. Vastly different workmanship is obvious. The scrap metal Manding sword actually flexes nicely without staying bent, though, It's probably spring steel. I'd rather use it than the European bladed one.
View attachment 426860
The Manding between two other African daggers with Euro blades, all with tips that were ground down to be double sided and pointy.
View attachment 426861View attachment 426862
Up on the wall it goes. I'm out of space again so the Kaskaras go back in their scabbards. I much prefer displaying them with the blades out, so time to do some reshuffling.
View attachment 426863
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Awesome that you got so much info. LoL. Your going to have to line the other walls with peg board again 
btw, I just missed a beautiful authentic Jambiya from Yemen on that auctionthingy place. was exactly what I had been looking for and I was in it till 17 mins left when someone took it WAY over my budget. What the heck?!? I mean the price jumped over $300 above my "winning bid" in the last 17 mins.
But I have found a new place that sells some and they aren't an auction so I can take my time and decide if the piece and the provenance is worth what they are asking. Looking bad for my checkbook LOL/
btw, I just missed a beautiful authentic Jambiya from Yemen on that auctionthingy place. was exactly what I had been looking for and I was in it till 17 mins left when someone took it WAY over my budget. What the heck?!? I mean the price jumped over $300 above my "winning bid" in the last 17 mins.
But I have found a new place that sells some and they aren't an auction so I can take my time and decide if the piece and the provenance is worth what they are asking. Looking bad for my checkbook LOL/
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Huh, I was throwing the box out and look what popped out.
View attachment 427223
I think I'll just tie it on to the scabbard with some twine or a rubber band. I was thinking to glue it on but I want to make sure it's reversible.
View attachment 427223
I think I'll just tie it on to the scabbard with some twine or a rubber band. I was thinking to glue it on but I want to make sure it's reversible.
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Cool that adds quite a bit of character to the hilt. I agree that you probably want to use a non-permanent solution. Perhaps museum putty? that way it won't be as obvious as a rubberband but still it would allow you to remove it completely if you chose later?
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I have a link with that region myself. My Y chromosome haplogroup is E1b1a7a. 23andMe says "The E1b1a branch of haplogroup E predominates in Africa south of the Sahara, where it spread about 4,000 years ago in conjunction with the expansion of Bantu-speaking people out of western Africa."
Don't know much about the culture though.
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I wish I had known this old lady before she went to any "antiques roadshow" there is enough taken hair on this mandau to open an extension shop-- this is museum quality ! -- also I did that thing too howard, I am pretty much western european (99 percent)with a dash of jewish.3 caucasian.7?( still trying to figure out that one)-- go back far enough and I am pretty sure we are all 100 percent african 
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/roadshow/video/201106W12.html
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/roadshow/video/201106W12.html
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