James Bond's Walther PPK?

TR Graham said:
Both the Mauser HsC and the Sauer 38H were developed specifically to compete with the Walther PP/PPK.

The HsC was one of the first pistols to employ easily produced stamped steel internal components to ease and speed up manufacture. Incorporating a shrouded hammer that "sealed" the action lockwork, the HsC was specifically designed to be easy to draw from concealment. Another feature over the Walther included an internal slide hold open that would also automatically drop the slide when the magazine was reinserted. Mauser continued production of the HsC until the late 1970's, and the pistol was the basis of the design of both the H&K P4 pistol and a high capacity Italian made "clone" made by Gambia in the late 1990's. However, Walther's established reputation with the PPK, the odd “art deco” styling of the Mauser, and the fact that the HsC had a heel of the butt magazine release (not popular outside of Europe) limited the pistol's popularity.

The Sauer 38H (mentioned in “Dr. No”) was arguably the most highly advanced design of the three, having a much lighter trigger pull than either the Walther or Mauser, and incorporating a novel lockwork mechanism that allowed the shooter to both decock AND cock an internal hammer. This mechanism, modified to only drop the hammer, along with the 38H’s separate pinned breech block design was later used on the SIG series of pistols. The Sauer factory fell behind the Iron Curtain in 1946, and the pistol was never put back into production.

All three pistols highly influenced the manufacture and design of later guns.

TR Graham
The Glocksmith
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Didn't that Sauer multi-function action end up in the HK P9S?
 
Now I may have had nothingbut good exepriences, but the thing that I like about the "real" Walthers (I do not consider the P99 to be worthy to carry the Walther name) is that they are supremely accurate right out of the box, even with short barrels. My P5 with is 3.5 inch barrel is a certifiable tack driver. The factory 25 meter test target had a group that was around 1 inch and, in my experience, that was not a fluke.
 
jdm61 said:
Didn't that Sauer multi-function action end up in the HK P9S?
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Yup. Good catch. Most folks don't know much about the P9S. Excellent pistols that were just "too far ahead" and "spacy" for most people.

TR Graham
The Glocksmith
 
I had a P9s. Outstanding pistol... just like the Walther PPK. :D It is a heavy pistol at that. I traded it for a Glock 17. No regrets.
 
Tom,
Sorry, I misread your earlier post. :)
Catch up, man!
Get a genuine German Walther made in the US by S&W! :D
Denis
 
zenheretic said:
Another flaw is that at the very base of the barrel, where the spring rests, mosture can collect and cause significant rust in the non-stainless versions. But, I'm sure someone of your kurz caliber knew that.
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So what. Glock is arguably the most popular pistol around and its design requires you to break one of the cardinal rules of gunhandling. I don't see you touting it as obsolete even though there are documented incidents of AD's because of this.



What does the PPK have going for it? A fictional character...ooooooo, hold me back. When you can get a 9mm in the same size as a .380, the .380 is obsolete.
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No its not. You may have your 9mm, but if its in a pistol of the same size and much lighter weight than the PPK, you are going to have a bear of a time shooting it. Light is great to carry, but not so hot when shooting.

Any caliber that can kill isn't obsolete. A .380 isn't a hand cannon, but if thats your criteria, you should have brought a rifle to the dance. What my PPK can do is put several rounds of .380 down range, very quickly, very comfortably, and very accurately. ANY handgun that can do this isn't obsolete.

Because something is no longer at the top of the design curve doesn't make it obsolete. Since humans haven't changed or started growing kevlar skin, the PPK is just as deadly today as it was the first day it came out. Other designs may be better, but that has no effect on how well the PPK does what it does.
 
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IMO, a PPK, like a Smith Centennial in the .38 Sp version, is probably about as small a "full bore" pistol as a normal person can get without making certain sacrifices.......like discomfort when shooting or screwy ergonomics. Guns like the scandium Smith J frames (?) in .357 and micro double stack mag Glocks in big bore calibers strike me as brutally punishing answers to a question nobody was really asking. Kind of like that brick/2x4 hybrid, the Desert Eagle.
 
STAGE 2 said:
So what. Glock is arguably the most popular pistol around and its design requires you to break one of the cardinal rules of gunhandling. I don't see you touting it as obsolete even though there are documented incidents of AD's because of this.





No its not. You may have your 9mm, but if its in a pistol of the same size and much lighter weight than the PPK, you are going to have a bear of a time shooting it. Light is great to carry, but not so hot when shooting.

Any caliber that can kill isn't obsolete. A .380 isn't a hand cannon, but if thats your criteria, you should have brought a rifle to the dance. What my PPK can do is put several rounds of .380 down range, very quickly, very comfortably, and very accurately. ANY handgun that can do this isn't obsolete.

Because something is no longer at the top of the design curve doesn't make it obsolete. Since humans haven't changed or started growing kevlar skin, the PPK is just as deadly today as it was the first day it came out. Other designs may be better, but that has no effect on how well the PPK does what it does.
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You'll have to flesh out your "cardinal rule of gunhandling" as it is just gibberish at the moment.

Your other "point" is beyond silly. There is a large grab bag of similarily sized pistols of much larger caliber, and are just as easy to shoot in both revolvers and automatics. This renders the .380 obsolete, the ppk is obsolete based solely on its design. :rolleyes:
 
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zenheretic said:
the ppk is obsolete based solely on its design. :rolleyes:
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Zen, are you willing to sell me your PPK's? I'd gladly take the cobbwebby things off of your hands. :)

However, as they are an "obsolete" design, (which BTW has been copied or has influenced the design of just about every modern double action pistol made today) I would have to give you a VERY discounted price......;)

TR Graham
The Glocksmith
 
zenheretic said:
You'll have to flesh out your "cardinal rule of gunhandling" as it is just gibberish at the moment.
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Someone who doesn't know the 4 cardinal rules of gun handling clearly doesn't have the requisite experience to be commenting on firearms. Since you seem to be deficient I'll post them here for you.

1. Keep The Gun Pointed in a Safe Direction
2. Always assume the gun is loaded
3. Keep Your Finger Off the Trigger until you are ready to shoot
4. Be sure of your target and what's behind it


A firearm that REQUIRES you to pull the trigger to fieldstrip is clearly dangerous and obsolete by your standards as A) there are several documented accidental discharges because of this feature and B) there are all sorts of designs that dont require a trigger pull to field strip.

So lets hear you lump the glock into the same category as the PPK because its clearly more dangerous.


Your other "point" is beyond silly. There is a large grab bag of similarily sized pistols of much larger caliber, and are just as easy to shoot in both revolvers and automatics. This renders the .380 obsolete, the ppk is obsolete based solely on its design. :rolleyes:
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The I'm just going to have to call a spade an idiot because apparently the laws of physics apply to everyone but you. A bigger caliber will mean more recoil. A lighter gun will mean more recoil. A bigger caliber in a lighter gun will mean much more recoil.

And then there's the longevity issue. Most of these wunderguns, the ruger LCP being the latest incarnation, don't have a very long lifespan and are prone to failure. I don't care how large your caliber is, if your gun isn't reliable then its no better than a rock. I'll put 20k rounds down my PPK be just fine. You can try and put 20K through your ruger, keltec. If you do and it breaks, you will get a letter from at least one of those companies stating that the firearm wasn't designed for that type of shooting.

Finally there is the size issue. Not to burst your bubble, but 9mm isn't a "much larger caliber". In fact, a .380 and a 9mm bullet have the exact same diameter. Thats why .380 was and still is a standard caliber for law enforcement over in europe. For some reason, those crazy europeans think that smaller calibers are just fine for killing folks. Now it could be that americans are physiologically tougher, or it could be that .380 and the PPK can kill folks and do it well.

If nothing else, the fact that there is still a place in the defensive market (not 007 wanabes) for this pistol all these years later should be conclusive proof that they are not obsolete.
 
Does it matter if it's obsolete or not?
I mean, frankly, Scarlett.....
Denis
 
Lycosa said:
I had a P9s. Outstanding pistol... just like the Walther PPK. :D It is a heavy pistol at that. I traded it for a Glock 17. No regrets.
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i always wanted a HK P9S .45 a bud had one and i really liked it, started to get one & instead ended up w/a P7 which i liked at 1st but soon begin to not like it as much, it was/is 'ok' though, just not a big fav of mine, wish i woulda got the P9S .45 instead and it was a bit cheaper to boot lol.
 
1A---Those P9's are expensive now!
What's the word on Glock's smallest 9mm?
 
STAGE 2 said:
Someone who doesn't know the 4 cardinal rules of gun handling clearly doesn't have the requisite experience to be commenting on firearms. Since you seem to be deficient I'll post them here for you.

1. Keep The Gun Pointed in a Safe Direction
2. Always assume the gun is loaded
3. Keep Your Finger Off the Trigger until you are ready to shoot
4. Be sure of your target and what's behind it


A firearm that REQUIRES you to pull the trigger to fieldstrip is clearly dangerous and obsolete by your standards as A) there are several documented accidental discharges because of this feature and B) there are all sorts of designs that dont require a trigger pull to field strip.

So lets hear you lump the glock into the same category as the PPK because its clearly more dangerous.




The I'm just going to have to call a spade an idiot because apparently the laws of physics apply to everyone but you. A bigger caliber will mean more recoil. A lighter gun will mean more recoil. A bigger caliber in a lighter gun will mean much more recoil.

And then there's the longevity issue. Most of these wunderguns, the ruger LCP being the latest incarnation, don't have a very long lifespan and are prone to failure. I don't care how large your caliber is, if your gun isn't reliable then its no better than a rock. I'll put 20k rounds down my PPK be just fine. You can try and put 20K through your ruger, keltec. If you do and it breaks, you will get a letter from at least one of those companies stating that the firearm wasn't designed for that type of shooting.

Finally there is the size issue. Not to burst your bubble, but 9mm isn't a "much larger caliber". In fact, a .380 and a 9mm bullet have the exact same diameter. Thats why .380 was and still is a standard caliber for law enforcement over in europe. For some reason, those crazy europeans think that smaller calibers are just fine for killing folks. Now it could be that americans are physiologically tougher, or it could be that .380 and the PPK can kill folks and do it well.

If nothing else, the fact that there is still a place in the defensive market (not 007 wanabes) for this pistol all these years later should be conclusive proof that they are not obsolete.
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Why would assume anyone doesn't know the "cardinal rules"? Asking you to clarify your mumbling is far from lack of knowledge. BTW some would call it a red herring, but I'll call it a non sequitur, we are talking PPKs, not Glocks. The only one mentioning Glocks is you.

As far as 9mm being the same as .380 umm diameter isn't the whole package. You can embrace European law enforcement if you want, but I don't live there, nor hug their philosophy. Since you mentioned physics you might look up the actual differences between .380 vs 9mm, .40 smith/wesson, .357, .357 sig, and .45 like I mentioned above. You know if you can't handle anything more than .380, that is your business, but there are plenty of women cops and female civilians can easily handle the 9mm and above. Since you are so worried about recoil, maybe you should look into the Walther .22 caliber, you might be able to keep that on target.

So lets recap.

We have an old heavy underpowered pistol (rated heavy and underpowered by just anyone but Stage2). It isn't drop safe, with links and gunsmiths opinons in evidence with nothing but heresay to the contrary.

We have multiple options from Ruger, Smith/Wesson, Taurus, Kel-Tec, Kahr, and your favorite Glock to name a few that offer a safer, lighter, more powerful, or some combination of those three features. This renders the PPK obsolete. Once again it still functions, but so does a '57 chevy, but both are obsolete.

We also have a general consensus that the PPK is unreliable for HP bullets.

In your corner it is all personal conjecture. You claim 20k rounds. So what. Any modern pistol will do that. You claim it doesn't need to be carried with a safety, yet it wastes all the weight with one. You claim the .380 is the same power (based on physics) as the 9mm. Face it. The PPK was a great choice when your other option was a full sized .45 or a revolver, now there is better all over the market. It was great for swallowing a bullet when you disgraced the Fuhrer, but a Kahr 9mm, .40, .45, or heck even in that whimpy .380 is a better option.

BTW one of your arguments is the reliability of your PPK...well hopefully it isn't the Smith version...recall

Of course you might be tempted to point out the apparent contradiction of my mentioning the Glocks after stating your point is a non sequitur. It is still a non sequitur, and there is only one cardinal rule of firearm handling, any accidental dishcharge from disassembly obviously failed to follow it. ;)
 
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To its credit, the PPK does have to features that are still worthy. One is the tactical and visual loaded chamber indicator. Few modern pistols do that feature so well, which is a shame. The other is grooving between the sites that help eliminate glare. Rather superfluous for a belly gun, but a nice feature, nevertheless.


As another thought, some would argue that DA/SA is obsolete as well.
 
mwerner said:
I remember a lot of comment about the air pistol when that movie came out. The producers said (rather lamely) that they were trying to show Bond as familiar with all sorts of weapons.
More likely, they just didn't have an appropriate prop gun handy when they did the publicity shoot.

Speaking of props..... In the novel, The Man With The Golden Gun, the bad guy Scaramanga has a highly-decorated .45 colt SAA revolver. He had been a "trick shot" artist in a circus.
In the film, for some reason known only to the producers, they decided to give the Scaramanga character that utterly silly-looking prop gun that looked like a small box with a pipe screwed into one end.
A proper Colt would have been much sexier.... Likely they had trouble getting one.
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The idea behind Scaramanga's gun, silly as it looked, was that it was assembled from innocuous looking components like a cigarette lighter, etc, so that he could easily smuggle it anywhere disassembled, IIRC. Man With THe Golden Gun was not one of the better Bond Movies anyway, IMO
 
The PP series may have some issues feeding some modern HP ammo out of the box, but then again, so do toher older designs. That is easily fixed by polishing the feed ramp. I had the ramp polished on my PPK/s and a trigger job done. Many people also do this on their 1911's. I am and old school kind of guy, but one of the things like I really like about the PP series is that it is not only all metal but STEEL. While I have owned alloy frame guns like the Sig 220 and been very happy with them, I am still a bit wary of guns with major components made from plastic.
 
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