James Bond's Walther PPK?

[STAGE 2]

As far as 9mm being the same as .380 umm diameter isn't the whole package.

I never said it was the whole package. YOU said that 9mm was a "much larger caliber" than .380 when in fact its not larger at all. Its more powerful due to the powder charge, but those weren't whe words you used.

It isn't drop safe, with links and gunsmiths opinons in evidence with nothing but heresay to the contrary.

Again, this is why I call a spade an idiot. Both California and Mass have drop tests for handguns that are to be sold in state. Guess what. The PPK is sold in both CA and MA. That means it passed both tests and is LEGALLY considered drop safe.

Ironically, the only thing I've heard to counter this is your base opinion. We even have a gunsmith here telling you its drop safe.

We also have a general consensus that the PPK is unreliable for HP bullets.

So are series 70 colts in stock form. Are they obsolete too?

In your corner it is all personal conjecture. You claim 20k rounds. So what. Any modern pistol will do that.

No they won't. Ruger will outright tell you that the LCP isn't designed for that amount of shooting. I have serious doubts that a kel-tec will hold up to that as well.

You claim the .380 is the same power (based on physics) as the 9mm.

Outright lie. Please show me where I said the .380 was the same power as 9mm.

BTW one of your arguments is the reliability of your PPK...well hopefully it isn't the Smith version...recall

That is a safety recall because of improperly manufactured pistols. It has no effect on reliability. However if recalls is the standard that we are to judge pocket pistols, the PPK stands head an shoulders above anything from ruger or keltec.

 

[Bronco]

A friendly reminder, gentlebeings - while no topic can inflame the passions like discussions of our favorite firearms, let's remember that the W&C forum remains the destination of choice on this board for pointing out the relative 'kurz'comings of other members. Thank you.

 

[zenheretic]

Nothing like selective argumentation...
90-100 grains of .380 vs. 115-147 grains of 9mm...sure same size, right. You think you make a point at my poor choice of words of "much larger caliber"? Really? You already admit the .380 lacks the power of the larger calibers so um what are trying to argue exactly?

http://hunting.about.com/od/guns/l/aast9mmv380a.htm

Still no links to prove your conjectures drop safe or otherwise.

I've already shown it isn't drop safe, what have you shown?

Yes the series 70 is obsolete.

Nice selective pairing of pistol expected logevity, again no links to back up your claims (ignoring Glocks and Kahrs and Smiths and other Rugers, for example).

Ruger and Keltec offer the same cartridge in a lighter package. You might shoot the ppk 20000 times, but it is highly unlikely anyone else will. Even if your carefully selected refutation ignores all the parameters set forth. Remember "to name a few that offer a safer, lighter, more powerful, or some combination of those three features" I'll throw safer as well as I forgot to recap that.

You mentioned the Ruger is prone to failure, I show proof that so is the PPK, you claim that it is irrelevant. LOL

 

[BlackHills]

This has been interesting reading to say the least. I'll just say I'm one who considers the PP/PPK to be a fine weapon and not obsolete. But then I own 1911s and P-38s so maybe I'm a curmudgeon.

TR Graham, if you want to talk "spacy" pistols how about the VP-70?

 

[DPris]

As a wise man once said- Obsolete is as obsolete does.

Roughly translated that means if ya don't want one, don't get one.

I've heard that my three Colt Peacemakers are obsolete, too. They remain un-for sale.
Ditto my 96 Swedish Mauser, my 1955 Enfield No2MK2, my Shiloh Sharps, my Walther P-38, my five Colt 1911s, my three .30-30s, my Remington Rolling Block, my Walther PP & PPK/S, and several others I could mention.

Each will perform at least as well in their intended function as they did in their own eras, better in many cases with current ammunition, and it makes zero difference to me whether there are more modern designs that may send a bullet faster, farther, heavier, or harder.

They each fit a role, and if others dislike any of them, it matters not at all in my universe.

Arguing over them to the point of insult is almost as useful as arguing over the Chicken & Egg thing.

Denis

 

[TR Graham]

This has been interesting reading to say the least. I'll just say I'm one who considers the PP/PPK to be a fine weapon and not obsolete. But then I own 1911s and P-38s so maybe I'm a curmudgeon.

TR Graham, if you want to talk "spacy" pistols how about the VP-70?

Ditto....the designs may be "dated" compaired to more "modern" guns, but they will still get the job done.

The VP-70? Now yer talkin' Buck Rodger's ray guns....

TR Graham
The Glocksmith

 

[TR Graham]

I've heard that my three Colt Peacemakers are obsolete, too. They remain un-for sale.
Ditto my 96 Swedish Mauser, my 1955 Enfield No2MK2, my Shiloh Sharps, my Walther P-38, my five Colt 1911s, my three .30-30s, my Remington Rolling Block, my Walther PP & PPK/S, and several others I could mention.

Denis

Damn. And here I thought I'd be able to take all that old "obsolete" iron off your hands......cheap.

TR Graham
The Glockn'obsoletegunlovinsmith...

 

[zenheretic]

My word. The old saying, "We can't have a conversation until we define our terms." rears its ugly head once again.

Obsolete. I'm not sure what meaning y'all are using but this is the one I'm utilizing:

Obsolescence is the state of being which occurs when a person, object, or service is no longer wanted even though it may still be in good working order. Obsolescence frequently occurs because a replacement has become available that is superior in one or more aspects.

It appears when the thread readers see "obsolete" they are only considering functional obsolescence, and not technical obsolescence. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obsolescence

I'll add Springfield to the list of producers who offer a product that renders the PPK obsolete.

 

[zenheretic]

I've heard that my three Colt Peacemakers are obsolete, too. They remain un-for sale.
Ditto my 96 Swedish Mauser, my 1955 Enfield No2MK2, my Shiloh Sharps, my Walther P-38, my five Colt 1911s, my three .30-30s, my Remington Rolling Block, my Walther PP & PPK/S, and several others I could mention.

Each will perform at least as well in their intended function as they did in their own eras, better in many cases with current ammunition, and it makes zero difference to me whether there are more modern designs that may send a bullet faster, farther, heavier, or harder.

This exactly illustrates my point in my last post. Your examples are not functionally obsolete, just technologically obsolete.

You should carry the Peacemaker on an empty chamber and it is single action...technologically obsolete, even if they function correctly.

That doesn't mean you should dump them in the rubish bin. You acknowledge their limitations and can use and enjoy them.

It is important for someone considering purchasing a PPK to know this beforehand.

 

[jdm61]

This exactly illustrates my point in my last post. Your examples are not functionally obsolete, just technologically obsolete.

You should carry the Peacemaker on an empty chamber and it is single action...technologically obsolete, even if they function correctly.

That doesn't mean you should dump them in the rubish bin. You acknowledge their limitations and can use and enjoy them.

It is important for someone considering purchasing a PPK to know this beforehand.

Interesting, considering that some the most "high tech" sniper rifles in the world have Mauser based actions and the vast majority of the pistols that you have mentioned use a 100+ year old Browning operating system. Maybe not so technologically obsolete, eh? While the Glock may have been marginally evolutionary in its use of plastics, it's design is really rather conventional and somewhat pedestrian. Arguably, the only new feature on the gun is the safety system on the trigger, and I am not so sure about that. Lets be honest. A "hammerless" single action autopistol is nothing new.

 

[zenheretic]

Interesting, considering that some the most "high tech" sniper rifles in the world have Mauser based actions and the vast majority of the pistols that you have mentioned use a 100+ year old Browning operating system. Maybe not so technologically obsolete, eh? While the Glock may have been marginally evolutionary in its use of plastics, it's design is really rather conventional and somewhat pedestrian. Arguably, the only new feature on the gun is the safety system on the trigger, and I am not so sure about that. Lets be honest. A "hammerless" single action autopistol is nothing new.

Rifles aren't compact carry pistols but if you insist on discussing them you should be aware that just because an action or design was invented 70 years ago, doesn't mean it is obsolete. BTW, these days the difference between the bolt and the semi-auto is quite slim. If it isn't already, the bolt action will soon be obsolete as the best choice for a sniper rifle.

The Browning operating system isn't obsolete unless you ignore the 100 years of advancements that have been put into the system.

IMO, it could be further improved by a bastardization of the Kahr barrel system, and the stiker hammer, along with the 1911 ergos and thumb safety/single action.

 

[DPris]

Tom,
Thanks for the offer.
Think I'll just hang onto 'em.
Along with the Nagant revolver, the little I Frame S&W .38 Smith & Wesson made in 1927, the first & second gen Glocks, the Yugo 8mm Mauser, the '66 Winchester repro in .44-40, my .22 Marlin levergun from about 1915, and the .38 S&W Enfield snub.

Denis

 

[MORIMOTOM]

boy, this thread sure has wriggled off in to the bushes.

re: walther pp series pistols, i like the way the feel and they are accurate. everyone ive shot bites my hand, though.

re: ruger lcp, i have been carrying one since last summer. it most definitely is not prone to failure. i have over 500 rounds through mine, and the only failures were induced (3 total iirc). one shooter wrapped his left thumb over the top of the slide looking for a comfortable grip. the others were the result of a failure to fully reset the trigger.

we now authorize them for back up carry, and about 20 officers have picked one up. i think it is a great gun.

 

[STAGE 2]

You already admit the .380 lacks the power of the larger calibers so um what are trying to argue exactly?

That your knowledge of firearms is limited by your statement that 9mm is a "much larger caliber". Caliber is a specific designation indicating the diameter of the barrel, and consequently the cartridge. The 9mm is not a much larger caliber. In fact it is an identical caliber since it is referred to as the 9mm kurtz, denoting the shorter length.

Still no links to prove your conjectures drop safe or otherwise.

In MA and CA the PPK is drop safe. Legally it is drop safe. There isn't anything you can argue here. In a court of law this testing would be admissible as evidence proving that the PPK is a drop safe pistol.

I've already shown it isn't drop safe, what have you shown?

No you havent. You've merely given your opinion which has been contested both by gunsmiths as well as state testing.

Yes the series 70 is obsolete.

Then why is it still the choice pistol of competition shooters, LEO's, and certian parts of our military? Explain that.

You mentioned the Ruger is prone to failure, I show proof that so is the PPK, you claim that it is irrelevant. LOL

A defective safety has zero effect on the reliability of the pistol. I can shoot my walther all day long without incident with the defective safety. I simply can't rely on it because it was improperly installed.

Ruger has had at least two recalls on its LCP both related to function. If you don't believe me, head over to their website.

 

[zenheretic]

That your knowledge of firearms is limited by your statement that 9mm is a "much larger caliber". Caliber is a specific designation indicating the diameter of the barrel, and consequently the cartridge. The 9mm is not a much larger caliber. In fact it is an identical caliber since it is referred to as the 9mm kurtz, denoting the shorter length.

.

Ahhh as suspected, when a person has no real rebuttal to the overall message they argue the minutia, the irrelevant. When shown larger means much more than diameter you cling to diameter, even when a clarification was offered. LMAO.

I noticed you once again ignored the other information delivered. Just like you mention gunsmiths yet conveniently ignore those who state otherwise regarding drop safe.

Just like when asked to show proof of your Cali test you ignore that...as if a legal market definition has any bearing on 70 years of mechanical reality.

Just like you ignore Series 70 getting 1000s of dollars of upgrades to make them reliable and accurate, just like ignoring the military not using series 70 but the newer versions, just like ignoring the police who do the same. The series 70 wouldn't be history if it wasn't obsolete, nor would it have allowed a foothold on the 1911 market for competitors such Kimber, Les Baurer, Ed Brown et al. if it wasn't rife with the inequities of that version.

Ironic you argue series 70 is great and then turn around and argue two early production recalls somehow invalidate one specific Ruger design, then turn around and ignore the recall of the PPK, then turn around again and ignore all the other makers who offer non obsolete pistols that fit the concealed carry niche of the ppk without recalls.

Rather pathetic actually.

 

[SIFU1A]

Someone who doesn't know the 4 cardinal rules of gun handling clearly doesn't have the requisite experience to be commenting on firearms. Since you seem to be deficient I'll post them here for you.

1. Keep The Gun Pointed in a Safe Direction
2. Always assume the gun is loaded
3. Keep Your Finger Off the Trigger until you are ready to shoot
4. Be sure of your target and what's behind it


A firearm that REQUIRES you to pull the trigger to fieldstrip is clearly dangerous and obsolete by your standards as A) there are several documented accidental discharges because of this feature and B) there are all sorts of designs that dont require a trigger pull to field strip.

So lets hear you lump the glock into the same category as the PPK because its clearly more dangerous.




The I'm just going to have to call a spade an idiot because apparently the laws of physics apply to everyone but you. A bigger caliber will mean more recoil. A lighter gun will mean more recoil. A bigger caliber in a lighter gun will mean much more recoil.

And then there's the longevity issue. Most of these wunderguns, the ruger LCP being the latest incarnation, don't have a very long lifespan and are prone to failure. I don't care how large your caliber is, if your gun isn't reliable then its no better than a rock. I'll put 20k rounds down my PPK be just fine. You can try and put 20K through your ruger, keltec. If you do and it breaks, you will get a letter from at least one of those companies stating that the firearm wasn't designed for that type of shooting.

Finally there is the size issue. Not to burst your bubble, but 9mm isn't a "much larger caliber". In fact, a .380 and a 9mm bullet have the exact same diameter. Thats why .380 was and still is a standard caliber for law enforcement over in europe. For some reason, those crazy europeans think that smaller calibers are just fine for killing folks. Now it could be that americans are physiologically tougher, or it could be that .380 and the PPK can kill folks and do it well.

If nothing else, the fact that there is still a place in the defensive market (not 007 wanabes) for this pistol all these years later should be conclusive proof that they are not obsolete.

though a 9MM and a .380 are ~ the same OD the 9MM has quite a bit higher velocity with a heavier bullet and is quite a bit more powerfull, & while a 9MM is imho plenty of calibre for SD with modern HP ammo like the ranger or gold dot the .380 is not a service calibre and is more like "barely" adequate regardless of the ammo. for example a .380 IIRC shoots ~ a 95gr bullet at 950fps or so while the ranger 127gr +P+ is at 1250 or so, more than a little bit of difference as you can see, or the std pressure ranger 147gr is ~ 950 to 1000fps.

my 5'3 110lb wife loved her 9MM kahr PM9 and i dont see why anyone couldnt learn to use 9MM if they can use .380 ok, come on now lol.

and while i dont know about the PPk being obsolete you cant make a silk purse out of a sows butt by saying the .380 is in any way comparable to a 9MM.

 

[Sid Post]

In context of when the Walther PP/PPK was a relatively new firearm, it was modern and safe. Comparing it out of context for the time period it was developed in is great for arguments but, really misses the point if you want the "best" available today.

The classic Walther PP/PPK falls into the same class of historic firearms as a Colt SAA or the legendary 1911 which really became famous from its military use for several decades.

In terms of safety, all of these pistols were used by huge numbers of people successfully without a huge number of catastrophic accidental discharges.

In today's litigious world, firearms manufactures have added large numbers of safety's to deal with careless gun handling and general stupidity IMHO. One of the most irk-some to me personally is the magazine disconnect safety.

Back to the original topic of James Bond firearms, the Walther and earlier Beretta were period correct for the books. For the modern movies, I would think one of the pistols from the various German police pistol trials would be a good choice to update this iconic book/movie franchise. I would pick one currently in use by a large European police force or military. The HK P30/P30L comes to mind as one modern candidate.

 

[zenheretic]

(directed to Stage 2, obviously)

Yeah I always listen to the state of California when it comes to matters of firearms.

Perhaps you don't post the link because it takes away as much or more to your arguments than it adds.

For example, there are armloads of 1911s that are no longer allowed. Were they deemed unsafe, or were their applications expired like the list indicates? So is the list definitive for safety or mearly a list of firearms makers who paid the taxes to get the guns allowed? Another example, I noticed the Glock is allowed yet you were trying to say it was unsafe...something about violating fundamental safe weapons handling or some such...

Hmmm, must really grate you that your CA list agrees with you on one side and not on the other.

http://certguns.doj.ca.gov/

Or perhaps deep down, you realize your CA list allowed a pistol that can fire a round without the trigger being pulled. So much for the CA list as an indicator of safety..

ppk not drop-safe

 

[zenheretic]

In context of when the Walther PP/PPK was a relatively new firearm, it was modern and safe. Comparing it out of context for the time period it was developed in is great for arguments but, really misses the point if you want the "best" available today.

The classic Walther PP/PPK falls into the same class of historic firearms as a Colt SAA or the legendary 1911 which really became famous from its military use for several decades.

In terms of safety, all of these pistols were used by huge numbers of people successfully without a huge number of catastrophic accidental discharges.

In today's litigious world, firearms manufactures have added large numbers of safety's to deal with careless gun handling and general stupidity IMHO. One of the most irk-some to me personally is the magazine disconnect safety.

Very good points Sid. I acknowledge them as such, but will carry on with the discussion.

Frankly though, I'm having a hard time finding a link that is definitive one way or the other for drop safety. Plenty of people seem to "know" it isn't, but no actual manufacturers articles that would remove all doubt. But I'll keep digging.

 

[Charlie Fox]

Wow...talk about a hijack! I thought this was about James Bond's PPK. Certainly he doesn't care if it's drop safe in CA or MA or that it's obsolete. He only cares that it will do the job - he just uses the tool given to him. I must note that, while the whole .380 vs 9mm discussion is facinating rolleyes that James Bond's PPK was a .32 (or as Major Boothroyd put it "Seven point six five mil") and I don't think anyone here will argue that the .32 is not like "a brick through a plate glass window", whatever that is supposed to mean. However it has been killing people in Europe for quite a few years, just not quickly - except for James Bond. One round from his trusty PPK and the bad guys are down for the count!

The PPK is an old design. It has been technologically surpassed by a great many guns. But there must be a market for them because S&W can't keep them on the shelves (recalls not withstanding) and Walthers are fetching high prices. This is where product placement in movies lives! Remember Dirty Harry? You couldn't find a Model 29 after those movies came out. How about the old cowboy movies...everyone had to have a Peacemaker. That's why you can't touch an actual Colt model for under $1200 - and that's cheap!

I think James Bond would look at this thread and laugh. He is a professional at what he does, he uses the tools given to him while knowing and accepting their limitations - just like the REAL spies, cops, soldiers and other brave folks that keep us safe...so we can have these inane arguments