Japanese exotic steels

I would love to see the Lum Tanto in Hap40. I have the Stretch and Endura in this steel and am VERY satisfied with what Sal and the crew have done with it. I think the Lum Tanto, with it's obvious linage to far east influence would be a home run with a high performance Japanese steel.
 
Sal Glesser Sal Glesser ,

Can you tell us where the V-Toku2 is going to come in on the hardness scale?

I've some brief experience with it in a kitchen knife that must've come in around 65hrc. I've no way to say for sure, but it was extremely abrasion resistant and according to the owner, had no chipping issues.

Really excited about this run. Definitely picking up a Stretch, maybe a Delica too. (Please, please! Make some kitchen knives in these steels too.)
 
I'm going to give one of the new sprints a try, probably the Endura or Stretch. I never had a SB model and hate the orange HAP40 colors, definitely like the new FRN color. Is it safe to say that V-Toku2 will rust like plain carbon steel effectively speaking?

Also, what is the significance of being made from Swedish ore? Does the knife come with some lingenberry jam and modern furnishings at a reasonable price or what?
 
Jeff O said:
What is the Japanese equivalent of 52100? That would be nice in an Endura.
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With out looking too hard v-toku2 just might be about the closest. There's so many steels out there though that it's hard to tell.
(BTW these graphs come from a 'knife steel composition chart' app. Really good app to have for any knife person.)
Screenshot_2017-12-14-16-52-13-1.png
I also have one more steel to add for the list. I would really like it if the dragonfly 2 could get a damascus blade.
 
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Sigsog226 said:
With out looking too hard v-toku2 just might be about the closest. There's so many steels out there though that it's hard to tell.
(BTW these graphs come from a 'steel composition chart' app. Really good app to have for any knife person.)

I also have one more steel to add for the list. I would really like it if the dragonfly 2 could get a damascus blade.
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In my limited experience I'd call that a fair comparison. It certainly sharpened and patina'd like 52100.
 
Sal Glesser said:
Hi Shawn,

For some reason we couldn't get the 15 and the 13 wasn't super easy and it took a long time to get it to delivery.

Let us know what you think?

sal
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Sal,


They appear to be the same steel except for the difference in carbon content

SRS-15 (1.5% Carbon)

SRS-13 (1.3% Carbon)

I've learned a great deal about Metallurgy over the past 5 years thanks to Dr Larrin.


The lower carbon content contrary to popular belief should actually be superior (better carbon/chromium balance for hardness and corrosion resistance also perhaps finer carbides.)

*Micrographs would be nice to confirm carbide morphology

So I believe SRS-13 is an upgrade over SRS-15 so perhaps why SRS-15 was not available. SRS-13 may have been its replacement.

As far as performance goes i think it will be interesting to compare to SPY27.
 
www.spyderco.com

Mule Team™ SRS13/SUS405 - Spyderco, Inc.

Spyderco’s unique Mule Team Series elevates the concept of a “mule” in-house test knife by allowing our customers to join in the process. Offered without handles or sheaths, our Mule Team blades are also popular “kit” blades f...
www.spyderco.com www.spyderco.com
 
tried it just now and the system still said only 1 is allowed. Isn't Spyderco changing it to 2 per household?
 
I don't care as long as it's pretty corrosion resistant, easely sharpened with a Sharpmaker and takes a good edge for a reasonable time, and it doesn't cost an arm and a leg.
 
I am very interested in these Japanese steels! I want to try something in Super Blue or Shirogami, I associate these steels with the Higonokami and love the idea of them. Supposedly they are more gentle cutters that one should avoid putting lateral force to, and are valued for ease of sharpenability? This is what I was able to garner. I have the base SK steel Higonokami, and one that is Aogami Super Blue. I have a couple of Spydercos in Japanese steels, too.

Why are these steels cladded when other carbon steels are not, like M4 or REX 45?
 
Hashishiin said:
I am very interested in these Japanese steels! I want to try something in Super Blue or Shirogami, I associate these steels with the Higonokami and love the idea of them. Supposedly they are more gentle cutters that one should avoid putting lateral force to, and are valued for ease of sharpenability? This is what I was able to garner. I have the base SK steel Higonokami, and one that is Aogami Super Blue. I have a couple of Spydercos in Japanese steels, too.

Why are these steels cladded when other carbon steels are not, like M4 or REX 45?
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The Shiro (white) and Ao (blue) steels are valued for their purity. This leads to many favorable characteristics; both in the traditional art of bladesmithing and for intended use. The carbon content allows for high hardenability, which gives these steels their high attainable sharpness. This high hardness along with minimal alloy content means while you can acheive extreme sharpness within the blade (and with ease), it will be susceptible in its brittleness, with low to very low resistance of apex deformation upon impact (toughness); hence, "gentle cutters". This will result in fracture (chipping) rather than rolling of the edge and can definitely cause a blade to facture if too much lateral torque is stressed upon the blade, as these steels are mainly intended for the separation of soft tissue (proteins). In Japan, they keep a higher awareness and consideration in the presentation and molecular structure of the foods they prepare. Take the preparation of sushi as an example. Deliberate and precise without hammering down with forceful impact onto a cutting board, or other surface. A gentle, gliding separation of material. This attributes to texture and flavor; keeping a whole, undamaged end product.

As for the cladding, it is tradition in Japan to jacket a very hard carbon steel core with a tougher material. This is known as San Mai, referring to the three layers (jacket/core/jacket). The jacketing material can be iron, or a stainless steel and is done to increase toughness and/or corrosion resistance of the extremely hard core steel. Another reason may also pertain to a finite amount of available resources, once upon a time being more real than the bloat of available materials today. Awareness, minimalisation of waste and utmost utility of resource, I'd like to think.

A huge thanx to sal & Spyderco and the makers in Japan for their continued efforts in bringing these steels to market for us consumers to get a taste.

*Edit for context
 
weeping minora said:
The Shiro (white) and Ao (blue) steels are valued for their purity. This leads to many favorable characteristics; both in the traditional art of bladesmithing and for intended use. The carbon content allows for high hardenability, which gives these steels their high attainable sharpness. This high hardness along with minimal alloy content means while you can acheive extreme sharpness within the blade (and with ease), it will be susceptible in its brittleness, with low to very low resistance of apex deformation upon impact (toughness); hence, "gentle cutters". This will result in fracture (chipping) rather than rolling of the edge and can definitely cause a blade to facture if too much lateral torque is stressed upon the blade, as these steels are mainly intended for the separation of soft tissue (proteins). In Japan, they keep a higher awareness and consideration in the presentation and molecular structure of the foods they prepare. Take the preparation of sushi as an example. Deliberate and precise without hammering down with forceful impact onto a cutting board, or other surface. A gentle, gliding separation of material. This attributes to texture and flavor; keeping a whole, undamaged end product.

As for the cladding, it is tradition in Japan to jacket a very hard carbon steel core with a tougher material. This is known as San Mai, referring to the three layers (jacket/core/jacket). The jacketing material can be iron, or a stainless steel and is done to increase toughness and/or corrosion resistance of the extremely hard core steel. Another reason may also pertain to a finite amount of available resources, once upon a time being more real than the bloat of available materials today. Awareness, minimalisation of waste and utmost utility of resource, I'd like to think.

A huge thanx to sal & Spyderco and the makers in Japan for their continued efforts in bringing these steels to market for us consumers to get a taste.

*Edit for context
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This is a very informative comment, thank you for writing this out! I am excited to try Shirogami, what seems to be the nicest carbon steel they make on a Higonokami, but I would be psyched to try either blue or white on a Spyderco blade. Had my eye on that cladded HAP40, as well. It seems like it is for very good reasons that Japanese smithing concepts are still so well-regarded today.
 
Jim malone said:
I don't care as long as it's pretty corrosion resistant, easely sharpened with a Sharpmaker and takes a good edge for a reasonable time, and it doesn't cost an arm and a leg.
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You should look elsewhere. Where Japanese steel shines iMO is those carbon steel or semi stainless steel. They will rust if not cared well.
 
Hashishiin said:
This is a very informative comment, thank you for writing this out! I am excited to try Shirogami, what seems to be the nicest carbon steel they make on a Higonokami, but I would be psyched to try either blue or white on a Spyderco blade. Had my eye on that cladded HAP40, as well. It seems like it is for very good reasons that Japanese smithing concepts are still so well-regarded today.
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You are welcome. There is much information to be found on these steels all over the internet. Research is your best resource, aside from experience.


The best examples of these steels will certainly be in Japanese kitchen knives. I would recommend a gyuto in either 210mm (~8.25") or 240mm (~9.5") blade lengths. If you don't like to cook in the kitchen, these may change your mind. Murray Carter has good advice on fundamental sharpening with minimal set-up necessary for maintaining your edge on these simpler Shiro/Ao steels. The rabbit hole is deep when it comes to sharpening and looking at every and all approaches is wise. Murray is a good place to start. Another excellent resource is actually a member here who has posted just a ways up in this same thread (DeadboxHero, Shawn Houston/Triple B Handmade Knives). He is also an excellent resource regarding steel and heat treatments. I hope he doesn't mind the plug.



Spyderco has a collaboration with Murray Carter, which happens to feature their (Spyderco) only consistent offering in White or Blue steels, being Super Blue in the Itamae series. Spyderco have never offered White steel in their line-up, to the best of my knowledge. The Murray Carter collabs are kitchen knives and are quite expensive. White and Blue steels can be had at different prices throughout the web, so it would be best to gather as much intel as you can, depending on what you require for your kitchen. I have seen some knives geared towards the outdoors in Blue (usually Blue 2) steel, though these are usually clad in iron (highly corrosive), rarely finished in more than a paracord-wrapped handle and can be expensive as well.


Spyderco has run a select number of their folding models in what they consider sprint (limited) runs in Super Blue, though the last run was a number of years ago (Calypso Jr.) and I have rarely seen any offered on the secondary market for sale. The HAP40 they offer is still circulating in certain models and is a very good steel; offering more alloy content in the mix, which will give different characteristics versus White and Blue steels, whilst still offering a relative ease in sharpen-ability to a very high level of sharpness. In fact, I ran across my Stretch run in HAP40 a few days ago and started carrying it once again, rekindling my interest in the model. For as much as the HAP40 sprints were knocked for being run lower than "optimal" (read maximal) hardness, it still performs exceedingly well; especially considering it is a pocket knife. I recall at least the Delica and Stretch models of the original run (Burnt Orange FRN) being ground thinner in blade-stock. This will aide in performance. Thin to win, baby. If you can find a blade that connects with you and the price is right, I highly recommend you give it a try.
 
I could use some more Japanese steel.
I think hap 40 is the best I have used.
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