Junk Steel

[K.O.D.]

Personally, I prefer a blade that stays sharp for a long time. Though I enjoy sharpening, I don't always have the time to mess with it. I generally make enough money that I rarely spend less than $100 on a knife. At that price range, I expect something better than 154cm.

Most of the steels I won't buy is because they are below my price range.

As far as premium knives go, I will never buy S30V again. I'm ok with S35VN in my TSF Beast, but S30V chips way too easily.

I've dealt with the S30V in my PM2, just because I like everything else about the knife. But I swear the blade was made by Frito-Lay and not Crucible.

I have three knives in Elmax, and I like it.

CTS-XHP is my favorite though.

 

[Charr]

I've never had issues sharpening S35VN but can't say the same for M390 and Elmax (although I have no problems with their use, edge retention and corrosion resistance)... I wouldn't purposely stay away from either, but I don't seek them out like some do. I actually choose S35VN when the option presents itself simply because I find it cheaper than most high end alternatives (especially M390) and like the ease of sharpening.

Now to your original question, I stay away from S30V simply because I see S35VN as an overall improvement on it... It's a fine steel, but knowing an arguably upgraded version exists in S35VN, I can't bring myself to settle for it.

If you're trying to use a traditional or (for lack of a better word) "cheaper" sharpening system, then M390 won't get along all that well with you, especially when you first start sharpening it.
I find M390 MUCH easier to sharpen than the vast majority of steels in the same category (with the exception of Vanax 35, though it has special properties), and much easier to maintain in general as it takes well to a strop and a 15 degree per-side edge performs insanely well.

M390 is my personal favorite for stainless steels in an EDC, primarily because it does everything very well, while not being too good at one perticular thing at once. By comparison, S90V holds an edge longer than M390 generally, but is much more tempermental if not properly heat treated (will become very chippy), and is extremely hard to machine and sharpen, while only holding a fine edge for a short time. It holds a very good working edge and like I said will hold it for a very long time, but does not like a fine polished edge, and is extremely hard to polish in the first place.
M390 on the other hand works very well polished or with a coarse edge, and will hold an edge for almost as long as S90V, but in either a fine or coarse edge. In addition, it has an insanely fine grain structure, so it takes a polish quite well for a high-carbide steel, and it is much easier to sharpen than most of the steels that fall under the banner of "super steels". It also has exceptional corrosion resistance, and is much easier to machine than S90V, S110V, Elmax, etc, while still maintaining good toughness and overall performance. In addition, you will not find a stainless steel that cuts more agressively than M390 out there. It's small but extremely hard carbides make it just devour most materials without effort.

S35VN is still a very good steel, and is easier to sharpen, but I would take M390 over it any day I can. In terms of the knives I've handled and the different heat treatments I've seen for both, M390 will outperform S35VN in all categories seemingly without fail. The only steel I find is overall better than M390 is sometimes Vanax (aka Vanax 35), but it is much harder to get, much more expensive, and generally isn't going to be in a knife most people would be willing to really use. Which is unfortunate, because it is an amazing alloy.

Keeping with the thread, I do not like S30V or most of the 440 series of steels. S30V has chipped on my much more than I like to admit, and like others have said, overall S35VN seems like a better steel. The 440 series of steels are overused, and while 440C has it's uses, there have been numerous improvements to it in various forms, and those are much better choices to me than the original. It works fine for some people, and I respect that, but definitely not me.
Another that bothers me, but I certainly don't hate, is CPM154...which I know may get me in trouble with some people, but its true. There are way too many insanely expensive knives in CPM154, and while the steel is good, that's about it. It is very good at taking finishing work, and is easy to machine while offering good edge retention and corrosion resistance. For knives that are not entirely meant to be used, but more admired with the potential tobe used, yeah, it works very well. For me though, I don't buy a knife without at least the inention of using it. Because of that, I would much prefer the use of a steel like Vanax, M390, M4, 3V, S110V, S125V (though that has its own set of issues), etc. on a knife in the range of $1000+.
Again, I think on most knives, the steel is fine, but once you get into the more sought-after and prized customs...no.

End of rant...my fingers are a little sore form that

 

[drrickso]

good read chard- i actually have a wicked edge system and have no issue sharpening- im just reffering to the time it has taken me to reprofile a BM 581 and ZT 0350 in m390 vs what it has taken me to do on several s35vn blades. they arent impossible by any means but it took me almost twice as long to get to 40 inclusive with those m390 blades than it did an rhk skinner in s35vn for example.

i understand that the original grind and angles vs where i was going to also plays a role in how long it takes but getting to a finished product on s35 has been much easier in my experience even with similar starting angles

 

[Screwdriver]

When I started using knives in the early 70's, you had knives that said "stainless" and ones that did not. I dressed deer, whittled, cut rope, cardboard and tried to throw them into trees. I used a stone to sharpen and all was good.

This thread has been an interesting read.

 

[stonproject]

I'm always interested to see the alloys some folks consider to be substandard for creating cutting edges. 420HC is often attacked as are 440C, D2, and most recently, S30V and Elmax. So here's a simple question. Are there any knives you would refuse to purchase based on their blade alloy alone? If so, which alloys are on your hit list and why?

oh good lord, if it cuts, it cuts... lol.

people need to realize its just a pocket knife. were not using our super knifes for brain surgery incisions, so if it cuts, it cuts...

the only steels i dont like, are "mantis'" and "quartermasterrs" mystery steels...

 

[afishhunter]

440C

All the knives I've owned that *supposedly* had a 440C blade, be it a $3.00 gas station special (I'm old) to a Buck or Gerber, were nearly impossible to sharpen, would not take an edge, dulled very fast, and seemed "soft" or poorly heat treated; if they were heat treated at all.
I think the Gerber I have had since 1970 something, is the worst. slicing warm butter is enough to dull it, and that is not an exaggeration.

I would throw it away, but the fear that someone would fish it out of the trash, thinking it is a "good" brand, prevents my tossing it Maybe if I drop it in the middle of a river or deep lake ...

That is the first and last Gerber I will buy, too.

 

[drrickso]

oh good lord, if it cuts, it cuts... lol.

people need to realize its just a pocket knife. were not using our super knifes for brain surgery incisions, so if it cuts, it cuts...

the only steels i dont like, are "mantis'" and "quartermasterrs" mystery steels...

and i can do my work with pen and paper instead of a typewriter... a typewriter instead of a computer. i could ride a horse to work instead of a bike... a bike instead of a car

as technology improves i look to make my job easier... i'll never fault someone for having simple needs and being content with that, but if my knife stays sharper a bit longer, is easier to sharpen, holds a better edge, wont chip or break as easy, etc, then i'm going to pick that because it's available to me over a cheaper steel. if it cuts it cuts, sure... but THIS one cuts better for longer so why not

 

[kimengbk]

Not to crap on your analogy but there are horses and bicycles that cost more than some cars...

Butttttt to stay on topic I wont buy anything below AUS8, or buck 420hc. Of course my wallet wont let me buy a new carbon fibre bike, but my 1986 fuji palasade made of " valite" still gets me from point a to point b.

 

[killgar]

I'm always interested to see the alloys some folks consider to be substandard for creating cutting edges. 420HC is often attacked as are 440C, D2, and most recently, S30V and Elmax. So here's a simple question. Are there any knives you would refuse to purchase based on their blade alloy alone? If so, which alloys are on your hit list and why?

I think posts like this^ might very well give people inaccurate impressions and promote "steel-snobbery". I can just imagine people reading such a post and thinking that such steels are officially regarded as "substandard" and "junk". After all, a guy on Bladeforums said so.

Are those steels really "often attacked" and regarded as "substandard"? "Substandard" compared to what, and based on what criteria? And who is doing the attacking? Are they people who have a lot of experience actually USING knives made out of such steels, or are they people just regurgitating something they read on the internet (like the post quoted above). Or are they perhaps people who just suck at sharpening and declare such steels as "junk" because THEY can't put a decent edge on them?

I've used 440c (Entrek Cobra), D2 (Wilson Tactical model 25), and s30v (Bradley Alias) as WORK knives (shipping dock, construction) for several years without any complaints or issues. Speaking from years of experience, I certainly wouldn't describe such steels as "substandard". At least not in the knives I have used.

 

[drrickso]

Not to crap on your analogy but there are horses and bicycles that cost more than some cars...

lol no problem- a fun conversation just the same. there are knives that contain inferior steels that cost more than others using the "super steels" too based solely on marketing but my point remains: if im given a choice ill take the upgrade to make my job easier. if you prefer ill use the car only analogy that ive seen said here a few times- if my choice is between a toyota and a porsche- ill pick the porsche everytime.

edit: i totally understand your point about budget though- i cant afford a porsche so thats not an option. IF i can afford the upgrade ill take it i should have said

 

[killgar]

if my choice is between a toyota and a porsche- ill pick the porsche everytime.

Ahh, but then you have to consider the MUCH higher cost of insurance on that Porsche, the MUCH higher cost of maintenance, the possible difficulty in finding a mechanic qualified to work on a Porsche, the difficulty and expense in obtaining parts, and the increased risk that some thief might shoot you in order to steal a highly desirable car that will sell on the overseas black market for a small fortune.

Sometimes "luxury" ain't all it's cracked up to be.

 

[kimengbk]

lol no problem- a fun conversation just the same. there are knives that contain inferior steels that cost more than others using the "super steels" too based solely on marketing but my point remains...

Agreed, I just recieved a case 6265 from my Uncle, that i would gladly use alongside any of my blades with higher end steel. To your point of making a job easier, maximizing utility always the logical end. I fEel that a lot of steels deemed as unacceptable are probably the standard for 70% of normal users.

I use all of my knives, i love the higher end steels as much as the lower end. I see sharpening blades as a relaxing activity and enjoy it thuroughly. One mans trash steel is another mans enjoyment.

 

[drrickso]

Ahh, but then you have to consider the MUCH higher cost of insurance on that Porsche, the MUCH higher cost of maintenance, the possible difficulty in finding a mechanic qualified to work on a Porsche, the difficulty and expense in obtaining parts, and the increased risk that some thief might shoot you in order to steal a highly desirable car that will sell on the overseas black market for a small fortune.

Sometimes "luxury" ain't all it's cracked up to be.

very true! the analogies themselves have holes for sure, especially without some base assumptions like being able to afford the cost and accepting any potential risks. to your point, a $5000 knife may sound great but if it falls out of my pocket i'd be a lot more upset than losing a kershaw leek. likewise someone is more likely to want to steal the expensive knife than be bothered with trying to take the $40 production blade. but we can say the same thing about any luxury item- it requires you to be more careful and have the means to afford and protect it.

 

[kimengbk]

Which makes me realize...

There are some serious philiosophical dilemnas involved with this hobby.

 

[killgar]

very true! the analogies themselves have holes for sure, especially without some base assumptions like being able to afford the cost and accepting any potential risks. to your point, a $5000 knife may sound great but if it falls out of my pocket i'd be a lot more upset than losing a kershaw leek. likewise someone is more likely to want to steal the expensive knife than be bothered with trying to take the $40 production blade. but we can say the same thing about any luxury item- it requires you to be more careful and have the means to afford and protect it.

Indeed.

Whenever I consider buying what I regard as an expensive item, I always ask myself "Can I afford to lose it?". By that I mean, can I afford the loss of money, and can I afford to replace it.

The most I have ever spent on a knife was $300. I've done it three times, twice on work knives (two of which I mentioned in my earlier post). Being that they were work knives there was always the possibility that I might drop them, tip down, on cement. And on one occasion I almost lost my Alias when it snagged on a piece of packing strap and got lifted from my pocket without me knowing it. But when I bought those knives I did so with the knowledge that I could go out the next day and buy another one.

Several years ago I was in the market for a wristwatch. I considered a gold Rolex, I could afford it at the time, but instead I went with a MUCH less expensive stainless steel watch. It told the time just fine, and it wasn't a thief magnet on my wrist just begging for some punk to shoot me, crack my skull, or stick a knife between my ribs for a quick score.

But as always, to each their own. I have my personal criteria when it comes to purchases, and other people have theirs. And as far as I'm concerned, no one's personal criteria is wrong.

 

[Charr]

good read chard- i actually have a wicked edge system and have no issue sharpening- im just reffering to the time it has taken me to reprofile a BM 581 and ZT 0350 in m390 vs what it has taken me to do on several s35vn blades. they arent impossible by any means but it took me almost twice as long to get to 40 inclusive with those m390 blades than it did an rhk skinner in s35vn for example.

i understand that the original grind and angles vs where i was going to also plays a role in how long it takes but getting to a finished product on s35 has been much easier in my experience even with similar starting angles

Ah I see. Yeah, I'll give you that M390 is not fun to reprofile, but really no high-carbide "super steel" will be any fun to reprofile (in fact pretty much all of them will be WORSE than M390). And like you said, beginning edge geometry plays a large role in that as well.

I do find it interesting that you chose a 40 degree inclusive for M390 though, as my experience and the majority of the people I've talked to have said that a 30 degree inclusive works best as a balance of edge stability and cutting geometry for M390. I would be very intersted to know more about your use on that edge and its performance if you have the time, and can PM or email me about it sometime. I love collecting data on steels, and performance is one of the harder things to get a variety of information on

I think if you plan on reprofiling the edge on a knife and have the skill and tools to do regular upkeep, then S35VN is likely going to be a better overall choice for you than most steels out there because it very carefully balances grandability and performance as a knife steel as long as it is treated properly.
If you want a higher end steel, look for Vanax (35), as it is almost 100% stainless, has better edge retention, and is often no harder to grind or sharpen, while still taking a spectacular edge. Lie, I said before though, hard to come by and not cheap when you can find it.

 

[Charr]

Indeed.

Whenever I consider buying what I regard as an expensive item, I always ask myself "Can I afford to lose it?". By that I mean, can I afford the loss of money, and can I afford to replace it.

The most I have ever spent on a knife was $300. I've done it three times, twice on work knives (two of which I mentioned in my earlier post). Being that they were work knives there was always the possibility that I might drop them, tip down, on cement. And on one occasion I almost lost my Alias when it snagged on a piece of packing strap and got lifted from my pocket without me knowing it. But when I bought those knives I did so with the knowledge that I could go out the next day and buy another one.

Several years ago I was in the market for a wristwatch. I considered a gold Rolex, I could afford it at the time, but instead I went with a MUCH less expensive stainless steel watch. It told the time just fine, and it wasn't a thief magnet on my wrist just begging for some punk to shoot me, crack my skull, or stick a knife between my ribs for a quick score.

But as always, to each their own. I have my personal criteria when it comes to purchases, and other people have theirs. And as far as I'm concerned, no one's personal criteria is wrong.

I just want to say that this is a very well-thought-out and constructed post, and I agree with you entirely on it. I can't say I always live by the same ideal (have you tried to buy a shirogorov 95T M390? It's hard...very), but I think it's an excellent philosophy for knife users to (attempt to) live by
Even for me, there is a definite limit to how much I can have invested in a knife and still vary it, with only 2 exceptions, and those are Grail knives that I have yet to actually own.

And I will say I do very much do the same with watches. I've had the money for much more expensive watches, and the desire to get them, but I always pick something cheaper, though after a LOT of consideration and time spent making sure it is functionally what I want and worth the money.

 

[marthinus]

Nothing? Elmax is good to go? That's good news.

As others have stated in this thread. IT DEPENDS ON THE HEAT TREAT AND WHAT THE KNIFE IS DESIGNED FOR

Lets take VANAX as an example.

Typical C N Si Mn Cr Mo V
analysis % 0.2 1.9 0.3 0.3 20.0 2.5 2.8

Vanax performed in Category 3 of Ankerson's initial testing at HRC of 59.5.

Ankersons test

" Uddeholm VANAX has the performance of ELMAX,
combined with the corrosion resistance of 300
series stainless. "

"If corrosion resistance is most important, Uddeholm VANAX is
the choice. "

Bucorp FAQ

http://www.uddeholm.com/stainless_knife_steel.htm

Recommended heat treatment Austenizing Cryo treatment Tempering Aim hardness

UDDEHOLM VANAX 1975 oF (1080 oC)1 -320 oF (-195 oC) 390 oF (200 oC)a 58 HRC

Now at 58HRC it would give you good corrosion resistance. This is emphasized in the following paper.

Effects of tempering on corrosion properties of high nitrogen alloyed tooling steels in pyrolysis oil - Ashkan Reza Gholi

"Tempering at 200°C for 2h is too short for any secondary precipitations, this explains for a high corrosion resistance at 200°C. No corrosion pits were observed at this temperature. "

By all accounts it is a good knife steel.

However, since so many people advocate secondary hardening lets take that into consideration.

Vanax with secondary hardening would increase the HRC and its wear resistance and is advocated by many in the knife world if that is the properties you want, however, from the paper above higher tempering temperatures where secondary hardening takes place is detrimental to corrosion resistance in Vanax. This is an important aspect if you want a steel that is highly corrosion resistant.

"Corrosion pitts were seen on Vanax samples which were tempered at 400C°
and 450°C, with slightly more corrosion attack on 450°C. A decreased
corrosion resistance of the material at these temperatures was explained by
chromium depletion from the matrix as a result of secondary chromium nitride precipitations."

"At 500°C Vanax failed to passivate due to a high chromium loss from the
matrix. There were a lot of secondary chromium nitride precipitations at
500°C. The rate of general corrosion attack on the samples which tempered at
500°C was high at all temperatures of exposure. "

Now lets say a person receives a Vanax knife from a maker. His first custom knife, the customer wanted Vanax and high HRC ground thin with intended use being to use as a fishing knife. The maker explains the limitations of higher HRC on the particular steel and advocates a lower HRC or even another steel but the costumer feels since Vanax is hailed as a "highly corrosion resistant steel" secondary hardening would not be an issue with regards to corrosion resistance. "Just look at its properties".

The costumer receives his/her new custom piece and goes out and uses it as intended. The knife performs with good edge holding capabilities, however, the costumer does not clean the blade since it is a "highly corrosion resistant steel" only to find that after some time it has developed rust.

Now the customer swears off Vanax for ever, says it is a bad steel since it "rusted" not giving any more specifics.

Is it really a bad steel or was there too much expectations placed on the steel due to marketing rather then understanding the limitations?

 

[drrickso]

I do find it interesting that you chose a 40 degree inclusive for M390 though, as my experience and the majority of the people I've talked to have said that a 30 degree inclusive works best as a balance of edge stability and cutting geometry for M390. I would be very intersted to know more about your use on that edge and its performance if you have the time, and can PM or email me about it sometime. I love collecting data on steels, and performance is one of the harder things to get a variety of information on

...

If you want a higher end steel, look for Vanax (35), as it is almost 100% stainless, has better edge retention, and is often no harder to grind or sharpen, while still taking a spectacular edge. Lie, I said before though, hard to come by and not cheap when you can find it.

I've stuck to 40 incl because the factory bevels were so large and I didn't want to compromise the integrity of them... granted I could go lower, but the knives I've gone to 40 on I used for utility and not specialized slicers. I find the 40 on most of my blades allows me some extra wiggle room for various cutting tasks and since I don't have to remove as much metal, I'd think I'd get some extra life out of it. I've gone as low as 20 incl on a blade, but that was a pain to get to, and when I had done 30 I hadn't noticed much of a difference in light duty use vs 40 incl, so I opted for what I thought was a stronger angle. The only time I've ever had chipping issues was when I first started using the wicked edge on crap kitchen knives- I found out that a lot of them couldn't handle 30. Part of my deciding on mostly using 40 also came from seeing what 30 did to those knives- granted I'm using better steel in my pocket knives though.

I've never used or even seen a vanax blade before... I'll keep an eye out for it- Thanks! Feel free to email/PM me anytime btw.

 

[bld522]

I'm always interested to see the alloys some folks consider to be substandard for creating cutting edges. 420HC is often attacked as are 440C, D2, and most recently, S30V and Elmax. So here's a simple question. Are there any knives you would refuse to purchase based on their blade alloy alone? If so, which alloys are on your hit list and why?

I think posts like this^ might very well give people inaccurate impressions and promote "steel-snobbery". I can just imagine people reading such a post and thinking that such steels are officially regarded as "substandard" and "junk". After all, a guy on Bladeforums said so.

I fear you missed the purpose of that post, killgar. I intended it to be controversial and spark a healthy debate. Looks like it worked, too.

For what it's worth, even 420J2 has its uses. And as Paul Simon stated so eloquently, one man's ceiling is another man's floor.