Junk Steel

[Gator97]

Do you know for certain that's a common myth? Have you done some testing in this area or are there tests to which you can direct us? I ask in all seriousness because if it is truly a myth it's one I have believed, and if you have done some tests and studies that can disprove it, I'd change that outlook (although I'd still always love Opinels just the same).

Based on all the testing I've done, to me the picture is very clear About 15 years of doing it. And I've had a chance to test quite a bit of different steels as well. Custom knives, Kitchen knives, fixed blades and folding knives.
For the record, I am quite good at sharpening, and I have rather large selection of sharpening equipment, which isn't really necessary to maintain my collection, but I was interested in learning and comparing different sharpening methods and equipment.

In order to keep let's say X50CrMoV15 steel at the same level of sharpness as Aogami 1, I'd have to touch up and sharpen it about 5-7 times more often, that's a conservative number. To keep up with CPM 10V with low alloy steel, the same... Now, you can actually leave dull edge on later, and continue pushing through with greater force, but that's not really a comparison. I've had more than one person very seriously arguing with me that their favorite cutco (440A steel, about 56HRC) NEVER needed sharpening in 20 years of use. I beg to differ, but no matter, the owner(s) are happy and it's not really important what physics/chemistry/metallurgy says.

In short, if you keep your knife sharp, and it is one of the mid/low range alloys which are easy to sharpen, then it will wear faster compared to high end steels, which doesn't necessarily mean high alloy either. In fact X50CrMoV15 isn't low alloy by any standard.

As for the rest, everyone chooses the steel/knife according to their taste, budget and preference. That isn't really subject to argue about. If it works for you, who cares? Does it necessarily have to outcut someone else's more expensive knife, or vice versa?
However, stating that modern alloys are just marketing ploy and "my 120 year old knife does just as well" isn't anywhere close to truth either. Neither physics nor metallurgy supports that.

 

[David Martin]

I still will process a animal each year. A beef, lamb, deer or hog. etc.. I could use most any knife steel for these tasks. Yet, my ole reliable is a few well heat treated knives with 440C blades and micarta handles. Their performance is always dependable and I'm usually tired before they get dull. DM

 

[RedLynx]

Based on all the testing I've done, to me the picture is very clear About 15 years of doing it. And I've had a chance to test quite a bit of different steels as well. Custom knives, Kitchen knives, fixed blades and folding knives.
For the record, I am quite good at sharpening, and I have rather large selection of sharpening equipment, which isn't really necessary to maintain my collection, but I was interested in learning and comparing different sharpening methods and equipment.

In order to keep let's say X50CrMoV15 steel at the same level of sharpness as Aogami 1, I'd have to touch up and sharpen it about 5-7 times more often, that's a conservative number. To keep up with CPM 10V with low alloy steel, the same... Now, you can actually leave dull edge on later, and continue pushing through with greater force, but that's not really a comparison. I've had more than one person very seriously arguing with me that their favorite cutco (440A steel, about 56HRC) NEVER needed sharpening in 20 years of use. I beg to differ, but no matter, the owner(s) are happy and it's not really important what physics/chemistry/metallurgy says.

In short, if you keep your knife sharp, and it is one of the mid/low range alloys which are easy to sharpen, then it will wear faster compared to high end steels, which doesn't necessarily mean high alloy either. In fact X50CrMoV15 isn't low alloy by any standard.

As for the rest, everyone chooses the steel/knife according to their taste, budget and preference. That isn't really subject to argue about. If it works for you, who cares? Does it necessarily have to outcut someone else's more expensive knife, or vice versa?
However, stating that modern alloys are just marketing ploy and "my 120 year old knife does just as well" isn't anywhere close to truth either. Neither physics nor metallurgy supports that.

Oh I don't think modern alloys are a ploy by any means. That would just be silly. But I appreciate your extra info. I agree, it's not a subject to argue about. Edge retention just isn't all that important to me, in a sense. My uber-modern knives get touched up and kept sharp same as my older knives, even if the former has great edge retention.. that's just the kind of sharpener I am.

 

[Gator97]

I think what gets overlooked often is the fact that most of us don't need to use their knives that often and consequently sharpen them often(let alone using dull knives). Because of that edge retention and wear induced by sharpening of the blade become obscured. Here's a pic of chef Moromito's knives, that is what happens when the knife has to be kept sharp and sharpening happens daily. Very few of us have worn the knife to that level

 

[Fanglekai]

I think what gets overlooked often is the fact that most of us don't need to use their knives that often and consequently sharpen them often(let alone using dull knives). Because of that edge retention and wear induced by sharpening of the blade become obscured. Here's a pic of chef Moromito's knives, that is what happens when the knife has to be kept sharp and sharpening happens daily. Very few of us have worn the knife to that level

He said that happens in 1 year. That's excessive.

 

[RedLynx]

I think what gets overlooked often is the fact that most of us don't need to use their knives that often and consequently sharpen them often(let alone using dull knives). Because of that edge retention and wear induced by sharpening of the blade become obscured. Here's a pic of chef Moromito's knives, that is what happens when the knife has to be kept sharp and sharpening happens daily. Very few of us have worn the knife to that level

I probably sharpen too much, honestly. Even if all I have done is open envelopes and a few packages/boxes in a day, I usually touch up at the end of the day, regardless. Granted, I don't reprofile or put a new edge on or anything, but I probably give it a touch up on the DMT stones more than is necessary...

 

[pnsxyr]

Yes, that's pretty much my whole point though. If the knife is optimized the way it should be for cutting, the steel makes no difference in sharpening.


That's true and your point of view is certainly valid as well. Have you tried sharpening a Dozier though? You might not find D2 very difficult, as he highly optimizes his blades as well.

My point in all of this is that if you want a great cutter, thinner is better - assuming your not blasting through knots in wood, bone in animals, etc. It takes a strong steel to support a thin edge. Strength, in all steels, is directly correlated to hardness. For a given steel, harder is stronger. Obviously you don't want it too brittle, but for now, I'm talking hardness. So a steel that can go to 66 HRC will be able to be ground thinner than a steel that is at 57 HRC and not sustain damage like the 57 HRC steel. At 57, it simply doesn't have the strength to hold up that thin edge.

So if you want a cutter, figure out what geometry you are looking for. Get a steel that can be hardened appropriately, and get it thin. Most of the newer high-alloy steels have the double advantage of both high hardness and great carbides for wear resistance. Even a simple steel such as M2 HSS at 66 HRC or 1095 at 65 HRC will shock most folks that are used to 1095 at 57. The difference in edge holding is profound, to say the least.

Most of my experience have been using factory knives that have reasonably good edge geometry, but are not really comparable to what many custom makers are doing based on my limited usage and what I have read. I come to personally really dislike most D2 found on most production knives, but have heard that Dozier D2 is it's own animal with a heat treatment and geometric design which really takes D2 to new limits, so I've always wanted to try his D2. It seems that custom makers often take a steel and improve upon its performance between the heat treatment and geometry, often resulting in a knife that performs unusually well compared to factory knives in the identical steel.

I'm guessing like Phil Watson and other makers that the upkeep is much easier on a Dozier than on most production knives? My limited experience with customs have really impressed me on how efficiently they cut relative to most factory knives. I have a Bark River in CPM-154 and the physical force it takes to cut materials is less than other knives I own in that size. The other advantage I find from that is since the cutting itself is more efficient and less forceful that the actual speed of dulling is slower. At about 60 HRC, I find upkeep on it to be easy in which someone with my limited skill can maintain the razor edge with minimal time/effort. I find RWL-34 I have on a Tighe to also be pretty easy. However, I think if you put those steels on a factory knife, I would struggle with them a lot more than steels that aren't boasting quite that level of performance. I find my Blur in CPM-154 is a lengthier sharpening process than the Bark River.

Sorry for going off topic!

 

[singularity35]

Most of my experience have been using factory knives that have reasonably good edge geometry, but are not really comparable to what many custom makers are doing based on my limited usage and what I have read. I come to personally really dislike most D2 found on most production knives, but have heard that Dozier D2 is it's own animal with a heat treatment and geometric design which really takes D2 to new limits, so I've always wanted to try his D2. It seems that custom makers often take a steel and improve upon its performance between the heat treatment and geometry, often resulting in a knife that performs unusually well compared to factory knives in the identical steel.

I'm guessing like Phil Watson and other makers that the upkeep is much easier on a Dozier than on most production knives? My limited experience with customs have really impressed me on how efficiently they cut relative to most factory knives. I have a Bark River in CPM-154 and the physical force it takes to cut materials is less than other knives I own in that size. The other advantage I find from that is since the cutting itself is more efficient and less forceful that the actual speed of dulling is slower. At about 60 HRC, I find upkeep on it to be easy in which someone with my limited skill can maintain the razor edge with minimal time/effort. I find RWL-34 I have on a Tighe to also be pretty easy. However, I think if you put those steels on a factory knife, I would struggle with them a lot more than steels that aren't boasting quite that level of performance. I find my Blur in CPM-154 is a lengthier sharpening process than the Bark River.

Sorry for going off topic!

It's Phil Wilson.

At least I haven't heard of any maker named Phil Watson yet.

 

[sodak]

Most of my experience have been using factory knives that have reasonably good edge geometry, but are not really comparable to what many custom makers are doing based on my limited usage and what I have read. I come to personally really dislike most D2 found on most production knives, but have heard that Dozier D2 is it's own animal with a heat treatment and geometric design which really takes D2 to new limits, so I've always wanted to try his D2. It seems that custom makers often take a steel and improve upon its performance between the heat treatment and geometry, often resulting in a knife that performs unusually well compared to factory knives in the identical steel.

I'm guessing like Phil Watson and other makers that the upkeep is much easier on a Dozier than on most production knives? My limited experience with customs have really impressed me on how efficiently they cut relative to most factory knives. I have a Bark River in CPM-154 and the physical force it takes to cut materials is less than other knives I own in that size. The other advantage I find from that is since the cutting itself is more efficient and less forceful that the actual speed of dulling is slower. At about 60 HRC, I find upkeep on it to be easy in which someone with my limited skill can maintain the razor edge with minimal time/effort. I find RWL-34 I have on a Tighe to also be pretty easy. However, I think if you put those steels on a factory knife, I would struggle with them a lot more than steels that aren't boasting quite that level of performance. I find my Blur in CPM-154 is a lengthier sharpening process than the Bark River.

Sorry for going off topic!

Dozier is different (I think) because of his geometry. The HT is good, obviously, but most of his hunting knives have a high hollow thin primary grind that does make for quick sharpenings. In the traditional forum, Queen is noted for having very good D2 blades, but the primary grind is way too thick. Once you thin them, life gets much better. This is constantly discussed over there.

 

[Ankerson]

Dozier is different (I think) because of his geometry. The HT is good, obviously, but most of his hunting knives have a high hollow thin primary grind that does make for quick sharpenings. In the traditional forum, Queen is noted for having very good D2 blades, but the primary grind is way too thick. Once you thin them, life gets much better. This is constantly discussed over there.

His designs are very good as is his blade geometry along with them being ground thin and that coarse edge he puts on them really makes them perform.

 

[Gator97]

He said that happens in 1 year. That's excessive.

Not for him, he makes living with those The knife in the picture is Yanagiba(often called sushi knife in the west), used for fish mainly, although works for any protein and with very good skills can work as a chef's knife as well. Point is, it must be very sharp to be useful. Hence regular sharpening, and the wear you see.

 

[pnsxyr]

It's Phil Wilson.

At least I haven't heard of any maker named Phil Watson yet.

I've actually been reading Sherlock Holmes novels as of late and I believe I may have had a moment!

One day I'll buy one based on everything I've read about them and 10V!!! Hopefully by then I'll be able to spell it right. I spelled Zero Tolerance as Zero Tolerence for about two solid years after I got my first 0301...definitely not my strong suit.

Dozier is different (I think) because of his geometry. The HT is good, obviously, but most of his hunting knives have a high hollow thin primary grind that does make for quick sharpenings. In the traditional forum, Queen is noted for having very good D2 blades, but the primary grind is way too thick. Once you thin them, life gets much better. This is constantly discussed over there.

I'm guessing that with blades from Queen or Dozier that the D2 is significantly tougher than standard mass produced knives in D2? (I feel that some production D2 folders I have seem to leave some room for improved toughness)


Based on what I've read in this thread from you guys and elsewhere here, I decided to get a little daring and reprofile a M390 blade down to about 15 degrees per side, which is less than what I normally do as I generally stay with factory edges. It was a bit of a pain in the rear to get there...in fact I was kind of freaked by how much slower the process was and being accustomed to the EdgePro's 220 grit being capable of quickly reprofiling most steels, and 120 being a stupid aggressive of a cutter that most steels don't even need, I kept feeling like I was going to grind the blade into dust with as much as the 120 and 220 had to work even though in reality the stones were almost struggling to remove metal.

And I believe that is the prime reason I may struggle more with sharpening high wear-resistant steels because I am just not taking enough time as I am expecting certain grits to cut faster, which simply isn't the case with this M390 blade (and I have identical blades in 154CM, D2, and S30V in which the 220 easily cuts and the 120 is super aggressive with).

But you're certainly right...it cuts so much better it's like a different knife. I kind of expected the M390's edge to roll with the usage I did after setting the 15 degree angles, but the edge was completely unfazed by the usage and the razor sharp fresh edge did not dull to a sharp but not razor sharp edge. I got kind of scared off by thinner edges when S30V came out and I found it to quickly lose that ultra-sharp fresh edge and faster when the edge was thinner, but M390 seems to excel in that area.

And given one session of usage would have deformed an edge in S30 or 154CM to a point needing slight touchup to revive the scary sharp, but the M390 holds the hone through multiples same uses without even being really affected, I see what you mean about saving time in the long run, and could get used to using higher performance steels.

I've never ground a relief angle or microbevel into a steel with wear-resistance like M390, but I'm starting to give it thought to make upkeep even easier. With that said, the single-bevel V is doing great and I did not expect it to hold up to the usage I just did with it.

 

[sodak]

I only have Dozier and Queens in D2, so I don't know the answer to that particular question.

Taking it down to 15 (or lower....) is time well spent. Enjoy!!!

 

[pnsxyr]

Do you personally take M390 blades lower and is the difference still going to be dramatic as I go lower? Also, are you setting a microbevel once you get that low or just staying with a single? I've seen a few posts on PM2s taken to 10 degrees and read owners who say despite the paper thin edge that it holds up surprisingly well to light-medium usage. I wouldnt be opposed to going a few degrees lower each larger sharpening to see the differences.

 

[David Martin]

I have sharpened a Bob Dozier and the hollow grind he does is made for cutting. They get sharp and cut well. I also have a Buck 110 with D2 steel and it takes a good edge and cuts for a long time as well. I'd say the edge angle may be around 17-16*. DM

 

[Fanglekai]

Not for him, he makes living with those The knife in the picture is Yanagiba(often called sushi knife in the west), used for fish mainly, although works for any protein and with very good skills can work as a chef's knife as well. Point is, it must be very sharp to be useful. Hence regular sharpening, and the wear you see.

I know what a yanagiba is. Fish flesh is soft. Even sharpening the knife once per day shouldn't wear it down that much. He's sharpened away over half the knife in less than a year. It looks like he's using a stone that's too coarse and he's abrading away too much steel. If he used a high grit stone to touch up there would be far less wear. Morimoto is a celebrity chef. He isn't on the line cooking 24/7. He owns a number of restaurants. He isn't cooking in all of them simultaneously. Bottom line is many chefs aren't sharpening nuts. If he used higher grit stones he'd remove far less steel.

On the other hand, even if he genuinely used the knife enough to wear it away that much even with proper sharpening technique, he's making enough money that it doesn't matter and he could simply buy another knife whenever he felt like it, so it's kind of a moot point. YMMV and all that.

 

[wesessiah]

I know what a yanagiba is. Fish flesh is soft. Even sharpening the knife once per day shouldn't wear it down that much. He's sharpened away over half the knife in less than a year. It looks like he's using a stone that's too coarse and he's abrading away too much steel. If he used a high grit stone to touch up there would be far less wear. Morimoto is a celebrity chef. He isn't on the line cooking 24/7. He owns a number of restaurants. He isn't cooking in all of them simultaneously. Bottom line is many chefs aren't sharpening nuts. If he used higher grit stones he'd remove far less steel.

On the other hand, even if he genuinely used the knife enough to wear it away that much even with proper sharpening technique, he's making enough money that it doesn't matter and he could simply buy another knife whenever he felt like it, so it's kind of a moot point. YMMV and all that.

i have the suspicion that he's removing more material than he has to, because it looks to me like the primary bevel is significantly wider in the second and fourth than it is in the first.

 

[The Aflac Duck]

I know what a yanagiba is. Fish flesh is soft. Even sharpening the knife once per day shouldn't wear it down that much. He's sharpened away over half the knife in less than a year. It looks like he's using a stone that's too coarse and he's abrading away too much steel. If he used a high grit stone to touch up there would be far less wear. Morimoto is a celebrity chef. He isn't on the line cooking 24/7. He owns a number of restaurants. He isn't cooking in all of them simultaneously. Bottom line is many chefs aren't sharpening nuts. If he used higher grit stones he'd remove far less steel.

On the other hand, even if he genuinely used the knife enough to wear it away that much even with proper sharpening technique, he's making enough money that it doesn't matter and he could simply buy another knife whenever he felt like it, so it's kind of a moot point. YMMV and all that.

I may not be a master chef, but I use my knives for food prep everyday for me and my family. I've been using a BM51 for nearly 5 years and every other day it needs a touch up on the edge from hitting the cutting board so much. And after 4-5 years of constant use/sharpening it looks exactly the same. Heck, it even sees use in the yard sometimes cutting vines.

Bottom line:
I couldn't see any chef going through knives that fast unless his sharpening technique needs massive honing.

 

[Gator97]

I know what a yanagiba is. Fish flesh is soft. Even sharpening the knife once per day shouldn't wear it down that much. He's sharpened away over half the knife in less than a year. It looks like he's using a stone that's too coarse and he's abrading away too much steel. If he used a high grit stone to touch up there would be far less wear. Morimoto is a celebrity chef. He isn't on the line cooking 24/7. He owns a number of restaurants. He isn't cooking in all of them simultaneously. Bottom line is many chefs aren't sharpening nuts. If he used higher grit stones he'd remove far less steel.

Well, like you said you know what yanagiba is, and then you know the edge has to be very thin and very fine. I.e. he ends up using high grit stones no mater what. I can't comment on who sharpens those knives, may not be him BTW, but he does use his knives a lot more than most of us, not 24/7 obviously.

On the other hand, even if he genuinely used the knife enough to wear it away that much even with proper sharpening technique, he's making enough money that it doesn't matter and he could simply buy another knife whenever he felt like it, so it's kind of a moot point. YMMV and all that.

Agreed. My point was, frequent sharpening wears out the blade fast. And tales of "my knife was sharpened daily for last 20 years and looks the same" are not really convincing.

I may not be a master chef, but I use my knives for food prep everyday for me and my family. I've been using a BM51 for nearly 5 years and every other day it needs a touch up on the edge from hitting the cutting board so much. And after 4-5 years of constant use/sharpening it looks exactly the same. Heck, it even sees use in the yard sometimes cutting vines.

BM51? Isn't that a ballisong, with 4.25" blade? It won't be suitable for most of the work yanagiba does. I don't think you're sharpening it to the level of sharpness yanagibas are either. If you did you'd go through that BM51 a lot faster that Moromoto through yanagiba

I couldn't see any chef going through knives that fast unless his sharpening technique needs massive honing.

You're making that assumption based on your use. Like you said, you do food prep for you/family and he does for few dozen families every day. The fact that small ballisong is enough to do your food prep is indicative enough that you don't need elaborate knife work for your food. He does. As for the sharpening technique, his or his dedicated sharpening person, well, just by doing it daily they'd learn a thing or two, wouldn't you think so?

 

[RedLynx]

And after 4-5 years of constant use/sharpening it looks exactly the same. Heck, it even sees use in the yard sometimes cutting vines.

My point was, frequent sharpening wears out the blade fast. And tales of "my knife was sharpened daily for last 20 years and looks the same" are not really convincing.

Okay, not quite the same thing, but still funny.