Junk Steel

[jac_solar]

I use a knife a lot at work as well. I carry an Emerson at all times and use it to cut stuff when I'm in a pinch. When I have my bags on me, I use my roofing knife. Stupid sharp carbon steel blades. Shingles are hell on blades, especially the fiberglass and ceramic ones, no way in hell would I use a decent folder on them. Use the right tool for the job. I too was steel junky but I came around and saw the light about a year ago. I'm content with 154CM (I actually prefer it to be honest).

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How sharp are those disposable blades when they are new? Is it possible to get a regular "knife" sharper than "disposable blades"?

 

[sodak]

Do you personally take M390 blades lower and is the difference still going to be dramatic as I go lower? Also, are you setting a microbevel once you get that low or just staying with a single? I've seen a few posts on PM2s taken to 10 degrees and read owners who say despite the paper thin edge that it holds up surprisingly well to light-medium usage. I wouldnt be opposed to going a few degrees lower each larger sharpening to see the differences.

I only have one knife in M390 (Mule), and I haven't yet taken it down. Perhaps others can chime in with their experience, I know Ankerson goes to 15 dps for his testing as a standard. I would probably stay with the single just for fun, and if you get edge damage, then go with a micro bevel. Half the fun is seeing what these knives can do! I will start using a micro bevel when I get my edge thickness down below 0.01 inches. I tend to go by the thickness rather than the angle. I have a couple of regrinds that are in the neighborhood of 0.005 inches, and the micro bevel is almost the edge bevel itself. I'm exaggerating, of course, but not by much.

If you do take it down too far, a micro bevel can help support the edge, then you can adjust your sharpening to gradually bring it back up.

 

[W.M.B.]

Well, like you said you know what yanagiba is, and then you know the edge has to be very thin and very fine. I.e. he ends up using high grit stones no mater what. I can't comment on who sharpens those knives, may not be him BTW, but he does use his knives a lot more than most of us, not 24/7 obviously.


Agreed. My point was, frequent sharpening wears out the blade fast. And tales of "my knife was sharpened daily for last 20 years and looks the same" are not really convincing.



BM51? Isn't that a ballisong, with 4.25" blade? It won't be suitable for most of the work yanagiba does. I don't think you're sharpening it to the level of sharpness yanagibas are either. If you did you'd go through that BM51 a lot faster that Moromoto through yanagiba


You're making that assumption based on your use. Like you said, you do food prep for you/family and he does for few dozen families every day. The fact that small ballisong is enough to do your food prep is indicative enough that you don't need elaborate knife work for your food. He does. As for the sharpening technique, his or his dedicated sharpening person, well, just by doing it daily they'd learn a thing or two, wouldn't you think so?

I looked at the photo. It looks like an awful lot of wear for a year to me as well, but what really looks unlikely is the handle wear. I've had the same steak knives since 98. They have nothing like that handle wear.

 

[Gator97]

I looked at the photo. It looks like an awful lot of wear for a year to me as well, but what really looks unlikely is the handle wear. I've had the same steak knives since 98. They have nothing like that handle wear.

Handle typically is ho wood, which is rather soft compared to plastic and other polymers used in steak knives, and it is softer than other woods like ebony, ironwood, etc. Also, the amount of use your steak knives see is considerably less I suppose I don't think you can physically eat comparable amount of stake which would be necessary to match steak knife use with his use.

 

[ericvar101]

if I had to name a steel I considered "Junk steel" for a knife,...It would be 440A, its just too soft.

 

[W.M.B.]

Handle typically is ho wood, which is rather soft compared to plastic and other polymers used in steak knives, and it is softer than other woods like ebony, ironwood, etc. Also, the amount of use your steak knives see is considerably less I suppose I don't think you can physically eat comparable amount of stake which would be necessary to match steak knife use with his use.

Mine are hickory, I think. Also, my wife and I use them for all sorts of kitchen tasks, as well as table use. And the hardest thing on them is probably my kids washing them. 16 years. I just don't think that kind of "wear"is from normal use, even if he uses them a lot more.

 

[Gator97]

That I dunno, it was surprising ot see handles worn out that way, but I've never used knives the way he does, so...

 

[C_Becker]

Another though I just had: Most of the traditional knife guys seem to do just fine with "lesser" steels like 420HC ,440A or whatever Victorinox uses.
Its kind of weird, I really like Swiss Army knives -have one in my pocket everyday, but I'm not sure if I would buy any other knife that used the same steel

 

[marthinus]

Another though I just had: Most of the traditional knife guys seem to do just fine with "lesser" steels like 420HC ,440A or whatever Victorinox uses.
Its kind of weird, I really like Swiss Army knives -have one in my pocket everyday, but I'm not sure if I would buy any other knife that used the same steel

Victorinox uses 12C27, it is similar to 440A. People tend to think of these steels as "soft" however 12C27 can give you +- 61 HRC with temper quite consistently. It is a shame that most people cant experience it at full hardness and because of that it has gotten a bad rep. By full hardness I mean a heat treat done correctly to obtain that.

 

[yoko]

I won't buy anymore s30v performs well all around, but I use my knives at work and need a nice razor edge for tasks,s30v doesn't hold a razor edge for long (I will say it will keep a sharp working edge...but that isn't what I need)

I'm really liking elmax ,m390, and m4

 

[Chris "Anagarika"]

Victorinox uses 12C27, it is similar to 440A. People tend to think of these steels as "soft" however 12C27 can give you +- 61 HRC with temper quite consistently. It is a shame that most people cant experience it at full hardness and because of that it has gotten a bad rep. By full hardness I mean a heat treat done correctly to obtain that.

It's bot 12C27 but X55CrMo14. From:en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_Army_knife

Having said that yes, it's strange I like SAKs but not interested in other knife using same steel

 

[smokey0118]

Steel composition is probably the last thing I look at, preceded by heat treat, blade geometry, ergonomics and use. In the kitchen, the most-used knife is my opinel no. 10. It's got a full, comfortable handle and excellent geometry for slicing through stuff in the kitchen. The steel is very clean and takes a very sharp edge that can be touched up nearly instantly with the steel stick that's always readily at hand. It doesn't have wonder-steel, but is great for what I use it for.

Now for an edc that I carry and use a lot, there are so many choices that I can find something with great ergos, great blade geometry, and a proper heat-treat to make spending more for some "super-steel" the way to go. An example is my contego. While I'm not totally wild about the ergos(my spyderco pm2 and manix punk it heartily in this dept), the cpm-m4 is just bananas. Once I set an edge on it, it just stays sharp fo-evahhhhhhh. If it does start to dull, a stick and some strop time repairs it pretty quick and I go back to work with it. An example of things that amaze with this steel that would not happen with other steels is the other night when making a hot-dog cookin stick for the bonefire. I whittled a point on it and then needed to shave off the bark. After getting most of it, I wanted to smooth things out a bit, and I was just curious about the steel, so I scraped the blade sideways on the stick to shave off the remaining bark and smooth it. After a good amount of pressure sliding sideways on the blade, I could still shave with the thing. Pure amazing. Other steels just don't do this.

When I feel like carrying something lighter, the cpm-s30v pm2 or more recently, the cpm-s110v manix ride along. The pm2 does pretty well, but damn....that s110v is some incredible stuff. It's cool to just put an edge on the knife and just not have to worry about it for a LOOOOOOOONG time. Rather than spending a couple minutes touching up the edge, I just don't even really have to think about it anymore.

So, is steel the first thing I care about.....absolutely not. But when all other criteria is met, there's an absolute advantage to using steels that better fit my needs than others.

 

[The Mastiff]

440c i just have a thing about the steel. it's weak, but has good corrosion. it has moderate wear resistance but in my opinion it takes a lousy edge and has a terrible grain structure.

funny thing is that i do like d2 and it's fairly similar. it has better wear and less corrosion resistance and is a bunch tougher. perhaps that's why.

 

[me2]

What about the grain structure do you find terrible? Is it one source or all you've tried? Don't name names, but if it all came from one place it might be important.

 

[Fanglekai]

440c i just have a thing about the steel. it's weak, but has good corrosion. it has moderate wear resistance but in my opinion it takes a lousy edge and has a terrible grain structure.

funny thing is that i do like d2 and it's fairly similar. it has better wear and less corrosion resistance and is a bunch tougher. perhaps that's why.

I have a traditional in 440C that performs very well. It gets hair popping sharp, maintains its edge for a reasonable length of time, and is easy to resharpen. Plus it has excellent corrosion resistance. I don't really see a huge downside to it.

 

[The Mastiff]

It's really not that bad a steel. I just really remember the days back in the 70's trying to sharpen it without synthetic stones and wasting a lot of time. Now it's an easy to sharpen steel, relatively speaking. I'm more of an Alloy, HSS, and tool steel guy anyway

If I use a steel with abrasive wear as low as 440C's I want a better grain structure, and I want it tougher. O-1, W2, 52100, etc. I do like D2 even though it has a worse grain structure than 440C but it is more wear resistant and tougher.

http://www.smt.sandvik.com/en-us/products/strip-steel/strip-products/knife-steel/knife-steel-knowledge/important-factors/microstructure/

In stainless steels, which I typically don't prefer I usually like fine grained ones like the sandvik steels, or much more wear resistant steels than 440C. CPM 154 and S30V on up. They are both much more wear resistant and tougher than 440C. 154cm/cpm154 and S30V both have higher carbide fractions than 440C yet are tougher and finer grained. The best of both worlds IMO. Crucible Data sheets:http://www.crucible.com/products.aspx

S90V with it's much higher wear resistance is still tougher than old 440C. If I want steel that low scoring why not get something out of it like huge amounts of wear resistance and a still finer grain structure taking better edges and being tougher? Makes sense, no? Heck, S110V is about as tough, more corrosion resistant, and very, very much more wear resistant. It's still got a smaller grain structure and like the rest of the powder steels are cleaner. Naturally much of the same can be said about CTS-XHP, CPM D2, CTS B75, BG42( Ingot), Elmax, M390, 20CV, CTS 204p, etc., etc.

So, It's not really that bad of a steel. It's just kind of in a position where I really have no use for it. I currently have a Boker ( real German), older Benchmade, and Spyderco in 440C and find them all about the same. I've also tried Chinese steels called 440C that weren't.

Joe

 

[bld522]

It's been awhile since this thread percolated to the top, so I thought I'd check in and find out if there are any more alloys BF members would nominate for entry into the steel hall of shame. I know of at least one individual who won't go near Elmax. This recent post in another thread says it all (name withheld):

After having three elmax zt blades crack for no reason (I never use my blades other than opening and closing them) I sworn off Elmax completely. I won't go near it.

Anyone else have similar issues with Elmax? And are there any other alloys that deserve to be added to the "junk steel" list?

 

[bld522]

Nothing? Elmax is good to go? That's good news.

 

[drrickso]

I've never had issues sharpening S35VN but can't say the same for M390 and Elmax (although I have no problems with their use, edge retention and corrosion resistance)... I wouldn't purposely stay away from either, but I don't seek them out like some do. I actually choose S35VN when the option presents itself simply because I find it cheaper than most high end alternatives (especially M390) and like the ease of sharpening.

Now to your original question, I stay away from S30V simply because I see S35VN as an overall improvement on it... It's a fine steel, but knowing an arguably upgraded version exists in S35VN, I can't bring myself to settle for it.

 

[mtangent]

"After having three elmax zt blades crack for no reason (I never use my blades other than opening and closing them) I sworn off Elmax completely. I won't go near it."

The above quote is a triumph of irrationality. There are 3 things at least common to writer's experience: blade steel, manufacturer, opening & closing method. Heat treat is a probable 4th.
Instead of blaming the blade steel, experimentation is needed to find where the problem lies.

I will never buy another J2 blade. Or Chinese 440.
Some manufacturers do 440A very well. I have read it has a very particular HT with narrow tolerance. Joker of Spain does it well.