K i need sum reasons to argue with people restricting me from carrying fixed blades

[Esav Benyamin]

1) Since you need the CCA points, you have to go with the program. You don't have to like it, you don't have to sell it to the others in your group, but you can't afford to endanger your future for the short time until you are free to leave them.

2) A Swiss Army Knife is a valuable survival and utility tool. I always recommend that people take one along, practically all the time, certainly out in the woods or away from home.

It is not the only valuable survival tool. A canteen full of water can save your life. So can a good pair of shoes. But don't denigrate its effectiveness because you wish you could carry something else, too.

3) The best reason for a scouting group to carry fixed blades is that fixed blades can be a kind of ultimate disaster-preparedness tool, and the younger you are when you learn how to handle one, the better.

Too bad your teachers are wimps. Maybe if you can stay calm and present your reasons rationally instead of emotionally, they will hear you. They may still say no -- in which case, go with the program -- but you put the idea in their heads. Maybe someday they will learn more and think about it again, and some future generation of scouts will have the opportunities you missed.

4) The world changes, amazingly quickly. When I was in high school, there were no computers. There were no pocket calculators. I'm still good with a slide rule. But I always carried a pocket knife, often a boy scout style knife, or a fisherman's knife with a scaler. Now kids get thrown out of school for drawing pictures of knives.

You have to live in the world around you, but you don't have to like it. You can always work towards a better way. But work within the system while you're young and you'll get a chance to influence your surroundings for the better when you get older.

 

[Thomas Linton]

Do you do any cooking requiring a knife? If so, folders are messy to use for cooking and, unless great care is used, not safe to use for cooking -- too many places for food remains to hide. Not many cooking books show the cook using a SAK to prepare food.

Does your Scouting organization sell fixed-blade knives for cooking? If so, they are endorsing the usefullness of fixed-blade knives.

Many folding knives look more like weapons ("tactical") than certain fixed-blade knives. Find something with a wooden handle and a blade that does not look like a bayonet.

Scouting is more than what knife you use, however silly the rule.

Good luck.

 

[Temper]

It's not the military, so I'd ask them why there's a policy against fixed blades, express my dismay, and then quit. I'd go camping on my own time and with my own gear. The boy scouts have just become a brand name, selling and profitting from uniforms and other cheap stuff.

I second that....

 

[WYK]

Show up one day with one of these:

http://store1.yimg.com/I/knifeart_1843_5073685

And then your other preferred blade won't seem so big. Or, if you don't plan to hang around too long, show up with a huge Bowie and state "I WILL be carrying this. Any questions?" as you wave it around and let the light dance off the blade.

WYK

 

[kenk]

With all due respect, I've spent a lot of time camping in forested areas and canoing in the Boundary Waters (boundary of U.S. and Canada), and I have yet to find the need to split large logs with a fixed blade knife or even an axe. We find dry deadwood on the ground or on broken limbs. If we can't break it, we generally don't burn it. Such large logs are hard to extinguish at days end anyway, and could pose a fire hazard. I've read some say in other forums that there is a need to split logs in order to find dry wood, but I've not had that need yet. If it has been raining and the wood is all wet, then we'll usually just use backpacking stoves for cooking and sleeping bags to stay warm at night.

My preference is to carry a Leatherman Micra in my pocket for most everyday outdoor tasks. Many times I'll add a Ritter RSK Mk1 "Rittergrip" in a sheath on my belt as well. I usually pack a P-38 can opener and (when allowed) a Mora #22 (lighter weight) or Becker Crewman fixed blade knife in my pack/bag.

If I'm traveling for work, I'll usually carry a Micra in my pocket (not in airports though) and a Leatherman Charge in my bag.

I'm a Scout leader in the United States. In my location most Scout camps forbid sheath knives, and their presence at Scouting activities is certainly frowned upon by our Council. For the most part this isn't a problem at all. Fixed blade kitchen knives are allowed, and usually included, in kitchen gear - just not in the boys' packs. Our boys are allowed to use fixed blade kitchen knives when and where they are most useful, and really never are in a position to need carry anyhing more than a pocketknife or a small locking folder on their person. There is really no need to "fight" the current view to avoid large sheath knives.

If I were leading a Venture crew in wilderness areas, I suppose I could see allowing fixed blade knives to be properly carried - Boy Scout of America doesn't forbid them, it just discourages their use. On the other hand, as a youth, my advice is be to courteous to your leaders. If after a discussion on the topic of fixed blade knives they still refuse to allow them, then I would stick to the kind of knife they allow and focus instead on enjoying the outdoor experince and companionship of Scouting.

Remember, a Scout is Kind and a Scout is Obedient.

 

[Ming65]

A large locking SAK with a saw is a very underated piece of bush/survival kit IMHO. For many years it was the only knife I took on extended camping trips. For me a fixed blade is more of a convenience unless I was doing hard core, long term survival - Which I suspect I'm like most people here in that I spend way more time thinking about than practicing.

 

[Thomas Linton]

With all due respect, I've spent a lot of time camping in forested areas and canoing in the Boundary Waters (boundary of U.S. and Canada), and I have yet to find the need to split large logs with a fixed blade knife or even an axe. We find dry deadwood on the ground or on broken limbs. If we can't break it, we generally don't burn it. Such large logs are hard to extinguish at days end anyway, and could pose a fire hazard. I've read some say in other forums that there is a need to split logs in order to find dry wood, but I've not had that need yet. If it has been raining and the wood is all wet, then we'll usually just use backpacking stoves for cooking and sleeping bags to stay warm at night.

No problem - so long as nothing serious goes wrong causing you to need a fire when the wood is wet. Of course, if the bad thing happened, . . . . . . I feel responsible for the Scouts that I accompany and I want to be prepared for situations I have personally experienced when it all went smash.

Having said the above, I cannot deny that I have seldom needed my fixed blade knife other than for cooking. But I have also had little use for most of the contents of the group first aid kit I carry -- or the flares, signal mirror, or "survivial blanket" I carry on backpackers.

My preference is to carry a Leatherman Micra in my pocket for most everyday outdoor tasks. Many times I'll add a Ritter RSK Mk1 "Rittergrip" in a sheath on my belt as well. I usually pack a P-38 can opener and (when allowed) a Mora #22 (lighter weight) or Becker Crewman fixed blade knife in my pack/bag.

It seems you usually carry a fixed blade because it is a useful tool. Many Troops and Councils just prohibit Scouts -- of all ages, experience, and demonstrated maturity -- from having these useful tools available.

. . .

I'm a Scout leader in the United States. In my location most Scout camps forbid sheath knives, and their presence at Scouting activities is certainly frowned upon by our Council.['quote]

Same here. However, well into the 1980's this negative atitude and local-option prohibition was also applied to the backpacking stove that you mentioned. (National Council literature in the early 80's discourged use of chemical stoves and banned them at the 1985 Jamboree. Some Council camps banned them. Some Councils forbid them even today [wood or charcoal only]. )

For the most part this isn't a problem at all. Fixed blade kitchen knives are allowed, and usually included, in kitchen gear - just not in the boys' packs. Our boys are allowed to use fixed blade kitchen knives when and where they are most useful, and really never are in a position to need carry anyhing more than a pocketknife or a small locking folder on their person.['quote]

That would be logical -- and contrary to the "absolute ban" ["absolutely prohibited"] on fixed blade knives at several camps in our area. Scout stores in a couple of these camps sell fixed-blade knives.

Who do you want to teach Scouts how to safely use, store, and maintain fixed-blade knives? Do those who prohibit them expect those Scouts to NEVER use a fixed-blade knife? (Personnally, I suspect this is a lawyers- talking-to-suits "thing.") So who will teach them? Will it will be done within a program that emphasises personal responsibilty and safety or on the "street"?

There is really no need to "fight" the current view to avoid large sheath knives.

Who was talking about "large sheath knives"? Strawmen are always easy to knock over. So the proponents of absolute bans on fixed-blade knives always bring up "Rambo" knives. This creates an artificial choice. MY personal choice of fixed-blades for backpacking has a 4.5" blade.

If I were leading a Venture crew in wilderness areas, I suppose I could see allowing fixed blade knives to be properly carried - Boy Scout of America doesn't forbid them, it just discourages their use.

Not quite. As you know, the BSA discourages "large" fixed-blade knives and bans none.

On the other hand, as a youth, my advice is be to courteous to your leaders. If after a discussion on the topic of fixed blade knives they still refuse to allow them, then I would stick to the kind of knife they allow and focus instead on enjoying the outdoor experince and companionship of Scouting.

Courtesy is consistent with the Scout Law. But few here are "youth" (Lord knows I'm not. ) As for A Scout is Obedient, lets us not forget the rest: "If he think . . . rules and laws are unfair, he tries to have them changed in an orderly manner rather than disobeying them." We are not trying to raise good little robots.

I know who made the rule in our Council. They are emphatically not persons like yourself who have actual outdoor experience. They are the paid employees and business executives of our Council Executive Committee. They see our Council Camp once a year -- for an indoor steak dinner.

 

[DaQo'tah Forge]

due to my two sons , I was helping with the scouts that were meeting in our church fireside room for a little over a year. in that time we did do many things with knives. But never, and I mean NEVER did we allow a fixed blade knife in the door.

The boys all knew that they needed to bring a non-locking folder and so thats what they did.

I cant speak for the offical position of this or that troop, but I can tell you that we never had a problem with the young men trying to sneek different knives into the meetings.

I think that for the most part, once you make it clear what type of knife is allowed then thats what everyone gets and brings. I remember that the one dad that was the leader was always bringing extra knives just incase someone forgot theirs.

I do not believe that we ever ran into a situation that our folders or scout axe could not handle. the two camping trips we went on were in camp grounds with the parents, thus there as no real cutting to be done.

becides, the introduction of a fixed blade might carry with it an unacceptable risk , insurance/lawyers and that mess. So thats why I dont believe that the scouts even have an offical fixed blade knife, (However that could be wrong, I just dont remember seeing one for sale here)

 

[wadly]

k guyz i really think that many of you guyz dun understand, wad their doing is forcing me to NOT to use any knife be it a Busse BM or a vic. classic. I can ONLY bring IF one, SAK, is doing only a MEETING WHICH DOES COOKING which i see a crazy. Yes i use SAKs BUT i rely on only thier cheapness to back up my fb therefore this to me is a bit nutz and yes folders are very hard to clean after cooking especially swiss knives cause its very hard to take them apart or clean the joints .

To: DaQo'tah Forge
the problem is they just said no more knives!ONLY 1 SAKs

To: Thomas Linton
We chop woop from poles, as it is very hard to find dead falls or fallen limbs, chopping a tree is illegal here?
I only use fb from 4"-5" and i only use larger when i chop. No they dun sell fbs for cooking...never taught y?...besides they have hand axes for sale(they have put a price tag on it)

To: Ming65
K they dun let me bring a large SAK with a lockback...they allow a classic or somewhat similar size.

To: kenk
My fbs are really too small to use for splitting logs e.g. CKRT ABC D&R or a SOG seal revolver

To: Esav Benyamin
K yes i agree that SAK is a good all-rounder, but is it not said a jack of all trades is the master of none?and they only allow one...

To:ERINT
Yup...true a big folder is good, i used an opinel no.12 and they also said it was too big...they won't even let me carry a decor knife also long as it is a fb or a folder larger than a SAK

To:Laceration
Hmm...true but u must see it from my point of view i dun carr a BM or BKT brute or kukuri for EDC i use only a small fb...and i am the only one carry a fb as maybe they have not yet learnt what a true knife can do. The Hitlerjuged?? or HJ/hilter youth have more than 1 member who used a fb right?

 

[wadly]

Could any1 givmme a list on which scout orginaztaions allow fbs or axes
BSA?
Canadian scout assocaition?

 

[krakoa]

I must say I am offended by some of the anti-Scouting comments made in this thread. Scouting is much more than a marketing gimmick. There are many youngsters whose parents don't know beans about the outdoors, or self-reliance, and Scouting offers them an opportunity to learn skills that may not otherwise be available to them. I post rarely, but I have been around the cutlery world for dang near 20 years now. My troop had no specific policy regarding knife use and carry, as long as the individual scout had earned his totin' chip and demonstrated safe knife use. I believe that is a much more important factor than the type of knife carried by the scout. However, I have learned that since I left my troop as an Eagle Scout, they have instituted a non-locking folder policy. This smells like a PC-motivated maneuver which I care for not at all. Locking folders are safer, which my scars can attest to. Common sense seems to be a rarity these days, but I choose not to blame the Scouting program, but the individuals who pass down their judgements from an ivory tower far from the remote campsites where young scouts are learning to fend for themselves in the wild. I say up with the scouts and scoutmasters, and down with the bureaucrats and politicians.

 

[fulloflead]

so i nheed some help to convince them that SAKs are multi-tools and are not proper knives...

OK. Here's what you do...

Take one of these guys out in the wilderness when it's about 32 degrees outside. Tie 'em to a tree, stick a firestarter in his pocket and hose him down with water. Before you drive off and leave him there, offer him either his SAK or your Sealpup and see which one he takes.

 

[Benjamin Liu]

Challenge the sheeple to this test: You have a fixed blade and they have a slip-joint. Both knives get sharpened to where they can shave. Each person holds the knife in either a hammer or sabre grip, points it in a safe direction in case they lose their grip, and hits the back of the blade with a stick. Whoever does not lose any blood wins. Another variation is to hold the knife edge-up and slam it on a hard surface. If you want to be safer, you could simply press on the surface slowly but firmly.

The spine whack test is common for folders on this forum, so this isn't something very unusual.

 

[wadly]

haha...good but i need sumthing they will be willing to try, thier not that stupid to see in fixed blade or slipjoint in which would obviously lose

 

[Franciscomv]

First of all, I would still carry a SAK, even if I had a fixed blade. Models like the trusty Farmer and some of the larger locking ones are very useful. Do not underestimate a SAK.

That said, I can't concive outdoors activities without a fixed blade. I've been lucky enough to be able to spend a good portion of my life in the woods or mountains and I'm sure a fixed blade knife is absolutely essential gear.

I don't know what motivated the rule in your scout group (usually older scouts are allowed fixed blades here), but maybe you should try a very sheeple friendly knife. Your leaders will be more open to hear your reasons if they lead to you carrying a mora than if they see you with a Battle Mistress on your belt. Think of it as a compromise. There are lots of nice and not threatening knives out there.

You asked for reasons to choose a fixed blade over a SAK (or in addition to a SAK) outdoors:
-Fixed blades are safer. They just can't close on your fingers.
-Fixed blades are more resillient. Even light fixed blades will take a beating a lot better than a SAK. Somethings (like battoning) are just out of the question with any folder.
-Fixed blades are easier to mantain. If you have to field dress an animal, a SAK can get really messy, a fixed blade knife is easily cleaned.

If you didn't need the credits, I would recommend you to quit. Maybe you can find another group with rules that suit you better.
Anyway, try to calmly explain your reasons, and perhaps show them that you are proficient with a knife. I remember a school camping trip (when I was 7 or 8), I had a knife (I've had one since I could tell which end was the pointy one) and nobody else did, except for one of the teachers. We were having lunch and they needed to open some cans and couldn't find a can opener. I took my SAK and opened them for them. At first they were a bit alarmed, but when they saw I knew my way around the knife and had my dad's permition they were OK with it.

Anyway, good luck.

 

[DaQo'tah Forge]

To: DaQo'tah Forge
the problem is they just said no more knives!ONLY 1 SAKs

Yes, I understand. In the same way our rule was just one non-locking folder.

The head of the scouts that I worked with had his reasons. Mostly it was to avoid trouble and to be able to make sure all the guys were working with the same knife so that he could teach them things with the same type of knife they held in their hands . Now on the two real camping trips we went on in the park, we had around the table different types of kitchen knives used to prepare the food.

The leader had taken with him due to the wet weather, a good supply of dry wood that for one of the timed-events we had to be turned into a camp fire by the teams. However except for the use of their folders to make the kindling, they had the scout axe to chop the wood into smaller lengths.

I think that in the end, what the leader of our troop had in mind was to teach the basic outdoor camping skills they would need later in life . We studied finding direction with a compass. we studied fire making. We studied basic shelter design. and then we had running events.

I saw no reason really why any other knife becides an offical scout folder would have been any better. And learning to use a folder in the woods is a very good basic step for the young men to master. They still had the axe too but we didn't ask the boys to do much chopping as our fires were feed via longer lengths of wood and as they burned they got pushed back into the deeper fire.

I believe now that it's a few years later and I have made a few full-tang knives that our scout leader was wise to limit the boy's knives to just one folder each.

The fact that you were in the woods with just a folder kept you from thinking about doing things with that knife , (like try to split fire wood by hammering on it and risking breaking the blade) that has gotten others less carefull into trouble.
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=328256

 

[Thomas Linton]

OK. Here's what you do...

Take one of these guys out in the wilderness when it's about 32 degrees outside. Tie 'em to a tree, stick a firestarter in his pocket and hose him down with water. Before you drive off and leave him there, offer him either his SAK or your Sealpup and see which one he takes.

Count, he's in Singapore. It will be real hard to find a day at or below freezing.

Mr Forge, axes are FAR more dangerous than a FB knife. National has the statistics. Axes don't cut, they cleave. It's not reality, it's suits and lawyers.

 

[Sword and Shield]

Nothing larger than a Classic? Ouch. A Classic's good for some stuff, but it is pretty near worthless if you have any actual work to do. Heck, even a Soldier is inifinitely better than that, and that's a $15 folder that some countries issue to the military!

I can walk in the woods with a Scout/Utility 4-blade (AGR Scout/Cam BSA/SAK Soldier) and be totally confident. I may not be splitting wood, but I can improvise tools for that. Walking in the woods with a Classic doesn't inspire confidence.

 

[Thomas Linton]

I am pretty sure the topic is not wilderness survival. If it were, respective levels of "confidence" would be neither here nor there. Heck, I have seen people go into the woods with confidence with no gear at all. Helped carry several out of the woods. Some didn't even need booze to reach that level of confidence.

If Wiseman, Lundin, and Kochanski think a fixed blade is needed for their "confidence" in the woods, the average person -- or Boy Scout -- might question if they can really do more with less than these acknowledged experts. This is partucluarly true if they are all or a combination of cold, hungry, scared out of their wits, exhausted, dehydrated.

But the topic is not wilderness survival.

 

[wadly]

But the topic is not wilderness survival.

too true......