K i need sum reasons to argue with people restricting me from carrying fixed blades

Psychopomp said:
So you say you never saw a need for the fixed blade, right?

That is correct. I was in cubscouts andf then Boyscouts myself too back in the 1970s and the need for a fixed blade never came up.

Here now in the 2000s I have been active and working with our church's cub and boy scouts and again, the need for fixed blades has never come up.

Remember there is a good reason we have this rule here against fixed blades. Time has shown that for most of the time while the boys are in the woods or in the church doing scout lessons or wherever, they can get along fine with the good old Slip-joint scout pocket knife.

When I was a scout we did all our heavy chopping with the boy scout axe or with a saw. Thats why we dragged them out in the woods with us.

I have helped now of two different scout outings here with myh own two boys, and with the rules in place and with the normal camping events we still found no need for someone to run into town and get a fixed blade....

The scout motto of "Be prepared " is not talking about haveing plenty of "over-kill" gear on hand...LOL

Be prepared , is talking about being in a state of readyness in mind and body , to do your duty, to face danger, and to be ready to help others. Be prepared is not talking about what toys you strap to yourself as you head out the door, it's talking about haveing a heart and mind and body that can step up to challenges that we all face day to day.
 
Not that I'd suggest giving a kid a $300.00 knife (fixed or folding), but how is a Busse Steelheart E with a SAK in the pocket "overkill" when an axe is not? A knife is lighter and safer. When my dad was a Scout in the Philippines they all carried bolos. Are all the people who buy TOPS, Strider, Livesay, Busse, Swamprat, Becker, Ontario, etc. ignorant? Why did some of the top survival instructors design usless knives like the Anaconda, Tracker, RTAK, and WSI Ranger Knife?
 
The maturity of the Scouts involved is always a concern. At 16, I'd already finished Eagle, gone to a National Jamboree, and taught almost any Scout skill you could think of several times. You take a Scout at 16 that hasn't done those kind of things, and you have a completely different situtation.

No camp I ever went to banned fixed blades outright. You would be asked why you had it, but simply saying "I might need a knife" or "I was going out fishing later" was enough. Heck, my old Western 66 is on its third sheath and fourth blade polishing, from years of use. That's not to say every camp is like those I've been to, but it's the way it ought to be.

If you are a mature Scout, I have no problem with your carrying whatever you like. If you're immature, I have a problem with your carrying anything at all.

Let me explain. When I was in, there were two Scouts in particular that exemplify this. One was 15, a Life Scout, good guy, and I would trust him to carry anything. Heck, he was about as good in the woods as I am- knew his blades, knew how to use them well.

Another was 16, First Class by the grace of God and a whiny mother, and I wouldn't trust him with a toothpick, let alone a knife.

The age is irrelevant. If I trust you with a knife, you could be 10 and I have no issues- heck, the troop I ran, every Scout carried, and they were all 11 or 12. If I don't trust you, you could be 35 and I don't want a knife in your hand.
 
Sword and Shield said:
Another was 16, First Class by the grace of God and a whiny mother, and I wouldn't trust him with a toothpick, let alone a knife.

Once I was in a troop where the majority of Scouts were like this. The thing was that they were not interested in knives at all. To them walkmen and portable video games were more important. :eek: It was entertaining at times. One guy tried to sneak back to the campsite when the troop was out for some night games, maybe half a mile away from camp. The problem was he tried to dig tunnel to get there. :rolleyes: He was lost and we had to look for him and I found him alseep next to a small hole he dug. :D
 
First, thank you for helping with the Scouting program. If every man who was a Scout paid back by helping a Troop today, many more boys could be in the progeram and greater selectivity could be exercised as to who has the privilege of being a Scoutmaster.

DaQo'tah Forge said:
That is correct. I was in cubscouts andf then Boyscouts myself too back in the 1070s and the need for a fixed blade never came up.

I don't know. The Middle Ages were a time when large knives were favored by those who could afford them.

Here now in the 2000s I have been active and working with our church's cub and boy scouts and again, the need for fixed blades has never come up.

Then I respectfully suggest that you have failed in your obligation to bring it up. The boys will use fixed blade knives -- if not now, then later. Scouting is a good program to teach them how to do so responsibly. Moreover, using folding knives for food preparation is unwise. That is why the BSA includes fixed-blade knives in the official Chef's Kit.

Remember there is a good reason we have this rule here against fixed blades. Time has shown that for most of the time while the boys are in the woods or in the church doing scout lessons or wherever, they can get along fine with the good old Slip-joint scout pocket knife.

How do you teach them to cook from scratch? Do you cut up the food for them? Do they use the proper "kitchen" knives with no training or experience? Do they use folding knives contrary to good sanitation practice?
TV dinners?

When I was a scout we did all our heavy chopping with the boy scout axe or with a saw. Thats why we dragged them out in the woods with us.

The axe is far more dangerous than the knife. The hand axe is more dangerous than the full axe. Saws are far safer but not a replacement for an axe or stout knife.

I have helped now of two different scout outings here with myh own two boys, and with the rules in place and with the normal camping events we still found no need for someone to run into town and get a fixed blade....

I have "helped" with over 350 Scouting outings. I admit that "most" tasks can be done with a folding knife. And most Scouting events can be carried out without a first aid kit, survival blanket, knowledge of CPR, uniform --- or courage. One can easily camp without fire of any kind, eating only pre-cooked or "raw" foods. We teach more than the minimum -- and should.

The scout motto of "Be prepared " is not talking about haveing plenty of "over-kill" gear on hand...LOL

Be prepared , is talking about being in a state of readyness in mind and body , to do your duty, to face danger, and to be ready to help others. Be prepared is not talking about what toys you strap to yourself as you head out the door, it's talking about haveing a heart and mind and body that can step up to challenges that we all face day to day.

The mental aspect of being "prepared" is certainly primary - attitide, knowledge and experience. Since Scouting uses the outdoor progarm as its primary method of reaching boys, the mental aspect would include knowledge of how to properly and respctfully use basic outdoor tools. The fixed-blade knife is THE primary outdoor tool and has been for centuries. The only other candidate for that title is the axe. The folding knife? The folding knife is lots better than nothing.

As for "toys," any unit that allows any bladed tool to be regarded as a toy is failing in its responsibility and missing an opportunity to develope Scouts into proper adults.

I repeat, they WILL use fixed-blade knives. You can have an impact on how they do so, or duck that task and leave it to others.
 
Thomas Linton said:
The axe is far more dangerous than the knife.

Very true.
Our leader wanted to teach the boys the lesson of what is the best tool for the job, and what is the best way to use the best tool.

We did study how to use the hand ax in church meetings before we went on the trips. But due to the turn-over of boys going on the trips we had some who went on the camping trip as their first contact with scouts. Thus we were all learning the basic lessons of "Why the ax is important, and how do you use it correctly?

We had teams in the woods where each team had to finish a list of camp tests (like what should a bed in winter look like? and what to do with your food before going to sleep? type tests)

The use of a hand ax was to chop wood for a fire and have a supply ready to burn. The troop also used the ax to make a type of stand where different types of knots were to be shown.
Yes, the boy scout hand ax is a danger, but it is also the best tool for the job. and knowing what is the "right" tool for the job is one of the first lessons the boys learned about setting up a camp.

Yes, oh I know many other guys take pride in haveing knives that can do everything, even make cell calls on, but still my scout leader had this idea that it was about the best thing to teach his troop was that for every job around the camp there is a right tool, and there is a right way to use that tool,,

And thinking back, I see the wisdom in this lesson. For many boys there is a lot to learn about how to camp in the woods and the very basic lesson of "What is the best tool?" has got to be understood before you can ever push on to "Can you start your car with a paperclip, and a nail file?"
 
Haha good points made by all i am also excited on showing them the hk91 link.
But if i were to succeed in this "debate", i would also like to help my junior scouts in protesting that they should carry a SAK at the very least...any suggestions how i should start?
 
DaQo'tah Forge said:
And thinking back, I see the wisdom in this lesson. For many boys there is a lot to learn about how to camp in the woods and the very basic lesson of "What is the best tool?" has got to be understood before you can ever push on to "Can you start your car with a paperclip, and a nail file?"

Yes u can start a car without even using a nailfile and paperclip usless ur talking bout the door in which u can make the paper clip into a auto-moblie jigger very simple...haha
 
DaQo'tah Forge said:
Be prepared , is talking about being in a state of readyness in mind and body , to do your duty, to face danger, and to be ready to help others. Be prepared is not talking about what toys you strap to yourself as you head out the door, it's talking about haveing a heart and mind and body that can step up to challenges that we all face day to day.

Exactly. I'm not disputing anything you're saying, I just think at some time the need may arise when kids may need a bigger, stronger knife to do something that an axe can't do.

I don't think it would be too hard to incorporate a higher merit level to allow them to carry a fixed blade. I don't mean every scout should come to meetings armed for combat, not at all. But if they've proven that they can handle the fixed balde safely without putting anyone else in danger with their cool new toy, then I think it's ok.

DaQo'tah Forge said:
Remember there is a good reason we have this rule here against fixed blades. Time has shown that for most of the time while the boys are in the woods or in the church doing scout lessons or wherever, they can get along fine with the good old Slip-joint scout pocket knife.

Right, they don't need a big knife inside, or even just out in the woods. But like I said before, sh*t happens. They may be forced to survive, and I think a large knife will have a lot more value than an axe.

But above all else, being trusted to carry a large knife requires a certain degree of maturity, and I think therein lies the base idea of the scouts: maturity.
 
DaQo'tah Forge said:
Remember there is a good reason we have this rule here against fixed blades. Time has shown that for most of the time while the boys are in the woods or in the church doing scout lessons or wherever, they can get along fine with the good old Slip-joint scout pocket knife.

That is not a good reason. All you are saying is that in your estimation they were not needed for indoor church meetings and the controlled camping trips you've been on where no unplanned emergencies occured. You are giving reasons why you think fixed blades are not needed. These are not reasons to ban them. This sounds a lot like the Democrats' argument,"Why do you NEED more than 10 rounds in a magazine?"

For most activities the Scouts do these days, they COULD get by on only the Scoutmaster having a slipjoint and doing all the needed cutting for them. The leader could even just carry a scissors or a seatbelt cutter (both folding, of course) in a locked container. Lots of Scouts whittled when I was a Scout, but we never really NEEDED to do it.
 
zeus36 said:
Go with a shoulder rig. This will bypass the belt carry issue.
no can do...they do not allow knives at all...except SAK...even if i hid it in my under, i can't usr it without trouble...and these rigs cost quite a bit USD40 from survival sheath?
 
to mr forge wad i'm am mentioning is not boy scouts but outdoor/knife proficent venture scouts only being allowed to carry a small SAK.
 
Emanuel said:
Are they trying to imply that you are going to use a knife to kill someone? And let me tell you, them not allowing you to carry whatever knives you want whenever and whereveer you want to IS AN INSINUATION THAT YOU ARE A DANGEROUS PERSON.

Let me repeat, knives are inanimate tools. Disallowing you carry any knife is a negative insinuation that you are a dangerous person. It is an insult, it is even slander.(or libel if they do it in writing)

If they respond in any way that might imply that you might be a danger to the kids if you have a knife, you should start throwing the word defamation around.

Insinuations of you possibly harming someone with a knife is very serious, and you should tell them to think twice about it.

And if the guy telling you not to carry a SAK carries one himself, you should consider that a personal insult. He's really saying that you're not trustworthy enough to carry a knife, but he is.
Is it possible to threaten to sue for slander?haha just wondering.
 
well, I didnt read all these posts, but i thought i would say somthing, i am unsure if this is correct, but isnt there a motto for boyscouts, something like "be prepared" Hence the fixed blade knife.
 
acolonelofcorn said:
well, I didnt read all these posts, but i thought i would say somthing, i am unsure if this is correct, but isnt there a motto for boyscouts, something like "be prepared" Hence the fixed blade knife.
yes it has been said before anyway that renforces that motto...
 
Waldy, may I know which troop are you from? RI? The name Ho Rey sounds familiar for some reason.
I agree with you regarding being able to carry one 58mm SAK. Thats just ridiculous. No can opener! :D
Also, since you're 16(are you sec 4 now?) and should have learnt how to use parang, axe and knife properly by now.
Still, your cussing is unbecoming of a Scout and you sound like a spoilt brat who is angry cos someone doesnt let you play with your toys.

Back to the topic...
I dont see why you need to carry a fixed blade to regular troop meetings which from the rule(Muslim boys can come later), I'm guessing the troop meetings are held after schools on Fridays.
Maybe the Ventures might not want you guys bringing a fixed blade to school? You probably aren't gonna hang it on ur belt while you walk around school. It'll be horrible if pple find out abt your knife in your backpack and decide to do something funny with it during recess or PE lessons when you're not in class.

Also remember Singapore is highly urbanized and chopping trees is illegal. If I were you, I would first "educate" your senior ventures on knives and give them reasons why you guys should be allowed to carry 91mm SAKs or knives with a 3inch blade during regular troop meetings since you have experience with the Malaysian Rangers and should know how to prove to the senior ventures.

Next, show them the value of fixed blades at camps or during backwoodsman activities. You've got the experience, show them its usefulness.

I still don't see why you need a fixed blade at regular meetings though.
If all that fails and since the rules and regulations of your crew undermines your principles, you shouldn't be staying just for the CCA points. What does it say about your character if you do?
 
acolonelofcorn said:
well, I didnt read all these posts, but i thought i would say somthing, i am unsure if this is correct, but isnt there a motto for boyscouts, something like "be prepared" Hence the fixed blade knife.

Yes, the motto is 'Be prepared", but as I have writen in a posting here, the motto has NOTHING to do with the "gear" or the "toys" you strap onto yourself before you head out the door.

If that were true, then the Boy Scout motto would be "Gear up"

But when you go to Scouts you learn , (this is even in your first lesson and in the Boy Scout Handbook right at the very start too) That "Be Prepared is talking about a state of readyness in mind and body. It has nothing to do with the outside of the Scout, but rather it is concerned with the "inner heart" of the Scout. The ability to be ready and most importantly the will to step up to help others. To be ready in mind and body to face danger.

Although we tend to think of Scouts fulfilling the motto of "Be Prepared" only out in the woods, the truth is that Scouts keep their motto in their minds as they do every day to day event in their lives. Just walking down a hall, just going to church, just being a normal kid, the motto serves the young man as a way to grow a spirit where the lad is alway ready to help others.

Like the Scout Slogan; "Do A Good Turn Daily", can be used in the woods but is more correctly viewed as a guide to help the Scout see the value in doing extra acts of kindness, not just things done because they have natural good manners.
 
Benjamin Liu said:
All you are saying is that in your estimation they were not needed for indoor church meetings and the controlled camping trips

Im talking about Scouts...nothing more.
Im talking about helping to teach my two sons Scout troops.

Perhaps your Scouts in your area are different, but I can only tell you what went for me and now what goes for my kids.
Im talking about many many meetings in the FireSide room of our church were the need of a folder came up when we learned about knife safety and how to wittle and how to make some types of first aid things, but so far we have not found any need for the boys to bring fixed-blades to church with them.

Oh, we like for the guys to wear their uniform to church on that day so that right from the start their heads are on track to haveing a good meeting.

And yes, part of the Scout lesson's is to learn to plan your trip to the woods.
Your talking about taking boys between tha ages of 6 on up to about age 15-17 out on trips.

There is a big difference between a Surivial knife and a Camping knife.
As there is a big difference between camping and survival situations.

We go camping. We promote good camping, our ideal is to show the boys how to plan, prepare for, and how to have a lot of fun while camping in the woods.
 
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