Kali done with Khukri's

This is the first I've heard that Bura, old man of the HI shop, commisioned by the King of Nepal to make his personal khukuris, is responsible for Tourist junk.

There are HI blades for every need- martial, survival, showcase, custom. Why is Simon cherry picking one example to base his entire strawman discussion upon? I think I just answered that.

Claiming no insult was intended is also not a geniune statement. Of couse disparagement was intended! Simon hopes to sell khuks. We understand.

The late Bill Martino was unconcerned about Tora's economic pressure on HI and he generously allowed me to review one in his very own forum. His goals were simple and remain the same today; better the life of those in Nepal, make and sell the finest khuks, and conduct business strictly above board and for the customer. The goodwill of his business is internationally known. His blades have stood the test of time, not a test of months, but of dozens of years. I can pick up any Blade magazine and read the claims of this or that blade, but HI's blades are not claiming to have done these things, they have done them.

There is nothing wrong with Tora directing it's sales at a niche market.
When it does so claiming HI cannot also provide a suitable product for that niche, that is neither accurate nor particularly handsome to observe.

munk
 
I think you've made many enemies out of loyal HI customers by making this post Simon. Instead of presenting real world evidence of the quality of your products you have taken the tact of trashing your number one competitor. HI product line is way greater than yours and makes khukuris for multiple purposes rather than just for MA. I'm sure you read the HI forum regularly and realize that it is one of the top 2 manufacturer's forums on BF. The other is Busse. Try and attack Busse also and see what happens.
 
For the record; HI is in the process of completing the finishing touches on a run of Foxy Follies; traditional bolster, no 'cho creep' approximately 19" or so and weighing 24 OZ, with a traditional classic leaf style blade. I have a Tora blade virtually identical- Simon's earlier attempt at Tora's rendition of a WWl style blade. This is hardly the first, nor last of this style of blade offerred by HI.

Simon, if you'd put your best foot forward, and not started with a put down of alleged 'inferior blades' but limited your discussion to your impression of the virtues of your own product, the majority of this thread would not exist.

Your blades will stand or fall on their own merits and HI has nothing to do with that- time does.


munk
 
So this must not be a real Gorkha / Gurkha
holding a real khukuri / kukri ?
From this thread (153 posts over 4 pages):
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1344063/posts
With many good Gurkha (& kukri) pictures.
VIVA0018ST3.JPG

It shows obvious 'cho creep' [kauri creep]

Just over the last 200 years there have been many designs in use.
-Most- traditional khuks -do- have a very small gap before the kauri.
Myself, I think a khuk looks better with a small gap;
but does it make a functional difference?
Rarely, if at all.

Easy argument to make
that for personal combat
less creep & more edge is better.
Probably so;
for Personal Combat
when a 1% potential advantage
[just my -guess- to quantify a difference]
just might make a difference between two equally skilled bladefighters.
But if they are not both using kukris,
then I'd guess even less significance.


Real khuks are used by real Nepalis for jobs other than personal combat.
Real khuks are made by real kamis to satisfy the customer(s).
Real kamis can adjust a real khuk in the making to suit the job intended.

Talking about people here on Bladeforums---
Every style has it's fans & proponents.
Every style has its strengths & weaknesses.
Some are better tools,
some are better weapons,
some are multi-purpose designs,
some have been 're-purposed'.

general research / reference sources:

A couple of good general articles on Swordforum:
http://www.swordforum.com/articles/ams/tradkukri.php
http://www.swordforum.com/articles/ams/kukri.php

If anyone wants to read forum discussion threads participated in
by -some- of the world's experts of -historical- khukuris,
go here:
http://www.ikrhs.com
International Kukri Research and Historical Society

Other resources:
Ethnographic Edged Weapons Resource Site [vikingsword.com]
http://www.vikingsword.com/ethsword/index.html
Bharaata-Shastra - Indian Subcontinental Arms & Militaria resources [jnanam.net]
http://www.jnanam.net/shastra/


If you want to see photo galleries of real, traditional blades,
mostly WW era models, but older one's too,
some with 'straight' handles,
here's a few samples:
http://www.himalayan-imports.com/faq/Historical.htm
http://www.himalayan-imports.com/faq/Collections.htm
http://www.vikingsword.com/ethsword/khukuri/khukuri1.html
http://www.himalayan-imports.com/faq/Styles.htm
http://www.himalayan-imports.com/faq/Styles2.htm

http://www.himalayan-imports.com/faq/MilitaryStyles.htm
"The K45 was designed and made in Rawalpindi in the later part of 1945 by some of the "boys" from the Ordnance Bureau and was so cost/time effective that all involved got the civilain award correspondent. Quite a big deal apparently. This kukri was so good it's the one that everyone copied and is still being made by kamis, blacksmiths, matalsmith, etc. everywhere and more annoyingly, by Atlanta Cutlery."
Try it [this 'real' kukri]
~$30 from Atlanta Cutlery - "REGIMENTAL KUKRI W/SHEATH Made by the government contractor Windlass Steelcrafts. Hand forged from high carbon steel. Each comes with regulation sheath. Used with devastating effectiveness by the famous Nepalese Gurkhas in the Siege of Delhi in 1857, in the trenches of WWI France, throughout the New Guinea jungle in WWII, and with distinction in the Falkland Islands. The 12" blade is an impressive 1/4" thick with deep grooves and the traditional religious notch. Takes a good, sharp edge. Scale tang. Traditional, native hardwood handle. Standard metal butt plate. 17" overall. Wt. 1 lb. 6 oz. Genuine military issue to Gurkha Regiments in India. The only Kukri on the market that comes with a copy of the 8-page government contract, the ordnance drawing and spec sheet. Includes accessory knives. "
Made exactly to the goverment specs & drawing.
I have one.
Works well enough as a tool,
but others (old & new) I like better.
I don't know it as a weapon.
There are much better ones available for a bit more.

If you want a really really real kukri.
Go to arms shows & flea markets & antique shops.
Before you go shopping
look at -all- the pix of the -real- kukris
to know what they look like.
Find a WW era blade for $50-$75.
Not uncommon thru these sources,
but expect to keep your eyes open for a while.
Ebay - sure, lots of real ones,
but beware of 'new' sold as 'old';
and tourist trinket models sold as usable blades.
Atlanta Cutlery still has 60-100+ years old kukris
from the Nepal Armoury cache.

www.onestopknifeshop.com
The Bladeforums owner-sponsor
sells the Cold Steel Kukris

Everyone can find someone else to support their view.
Compare, contrast, try one out;
see with your own eyes, not the eyes of others.


~
~~~~~~~~~
<> THEY call me 'Dean' :)-fYI-fWiW-iIRC-JMO-M2C-YMMV-TiA-YW-GL-HH-HBd-IBSCUtWS-theWotBGUaDUaDUaD
<> Tips <> Baha'i Prayers Links --A--T--H--D
 
i can see that you are all getting out your handbags again. i think the point is missed again. its not a Sirupate vs HI competition its pointing out facts. u wouldnt use a plastic katana to learn would you or something from the Argos catalogue, you would want an original based piece wether its a original or repolica. there is no need to push the sales of Tora kukris because that seems to do itself from the professionals that use them surely !! i believe there is a meeting tomorow withg the Chief Armourer of 40 Commanndo Royal Marines who were so impressed with the kukris they had seen and used, and to put the point across,, how come the Sgts from the Gurkhas who were training with the Armourer last week,,were so impressed with what they saw, are now expressing an interest in these kuks. now surelt this is the "ulitmate" test. if the gurkhas thing they are mustard, then they must be inthe right direction,after all its there historical weapon !
 
I thought Sirupate got banned a long time ago. How did he escape from under his rock again?? :confused:
 
Sirupate said:
"I thoroughly recommend Simon's kukri. Simons knowledge about the Gurkhas is second to none and his expertise and techniques in the combat use of the kukri are amongst the best I have ever seen."

Jeet Bahadur Sahi, Staff Sergeant - Gurkhas



"Presented to Simon Hengle by Shree Dhar Bhujel, the close quarter combat instructor of the Royal Nepalese Gorkha Commandos for his skills with a khukuri and hand to hand combat. September 2001."



Simon,

Many thanks for the instruction on the application of the kukri, the two days have been a real eye-opener on this well respected waepon.
As part of the RAF Regiment Unarmed Combat Team we will look forward to "Educating the Lads!" on the kukri.
Once again many thanks,

Cpl Gavin Rogers JNCO RRPT (RAF Regiment Close Quarter Combat Expert)
Click to expand...

You know, Shiva Ki has all these neat pictures of elite supersoldiers who use his knives too....
 
Sirupate said:
Pics below, the top one is very poorly made modern kukri, the bottom one is a good quality authentic modern kukri

2005-07-11_081827_kukstogeth.jpg


Cheers Simon
Click to expand...

This "authentic modern kukri" on the bottom looks like a second rate knock off of the HI M43 model... who makes it anyways? :rolleyes:
 
Never having handled a tora khuk, I can't say anything about the quality of that brand. I have owned at least 20 HI khuks, I have given away over half of them to men serving in Iraq and Afghanistan. There have been no complaints. If you want a historically accurate khuk, tora might have a better offering, I don't know. But saying HI is worthless tourist junk because it isn't historically accurate is a strech. Historically accurate or not, they are great users, I know that from experience. Maybe tora makes a better fighter, I wouldn't know about that, I am no martial artist. But HI has a much broader product line. If I want a tool like an ang khola, then I can get it. It is a shame that tora and Simon can not adopt the attitude of Jerry at Busse, mutual respect and admiration.
 
Roughedge, tora make the model below, which was rated as one on the top kuks,as well as the gurkha army kuk that the Royal Marines chief armourer and his gurkha colleagues have seen. they will be testing them soon i guess after meeting at Lympstone barracks this week !

Bob i dont think it was said that HI blades are not good, just not original !

if given the choice which would you take into battle ( if you had too)???

And just to finish off, why dont we all see what you are made of with your kukri skills. why dont you all post a video footage of you doing test cuts, a great way to look at different blades strengths and weekness and your technniques??
 
2005-07-11_081827_kukstogeth.jpg


My issue with this thread and Simon's post regarding the above picture is the verbiage used that confuses "poorly made" with "different styles." The WWII pattern is of a completely different style from that of the M43-appearing khukri below it. "Poorly made" in my opinion refers to workmanship, fit, and finish. This should not be confused with "style" or "design" when the central discussion is one with respect to fitness of purpose.

I infer from Simon's post that the WWII design is not as suited as the M43 to the MA drills. That might be, but it has NOTHING to do with quality of workmanship, fit, and finish. Perhaps it's merely a poor choice of words on the part of Simon, and I'd suggest that if he wished to show an example of a truly "poorly made" khukri, the should have obtained a toruist grade Indian-made khuk, not a quality-made different style from HI.

Noah
 
Gurkha said:
if given the choice which would you take into battle ( if you had too)???
Click to expand...

My ++14 Stealthy Vorpal Hot-dog Slaying Deanimator Khukuri. (historically accurate, may I add)

Normally, however, I use my khukuris for more mundane tasks like cutting up fallen trees, so that one stays in the safe.
 
And just to finish off, why dont we all see what you are made of with your kukri skills. why dont you all post a video footage of you doing test cuts, a great way to look at different blades strengths and weekness and your technniques??>>>>>>>> Ghurka

This sums it up Gentlemen- Ghurka's tougher than all of you. That must have something to do with the subject at hand.

Sure.


munk
 
"Ghurka,"

Soldiers issued weapons made by the low bidder are often impressed by weapons from someone other than the low bidder. Simon could tell you that. Many here could tell you that. Whereas, I presume that Simon has some concern other than the price he pays his suppliers for the khuks he flogs.

As for posting videos of khukuri use as a condition for commenting here, please give us a brief precise of your qualifications, beyond a commendable loyalty to Simon. Doubtless, a video of you in action would be appreciated. ;)

(You are, of course, making it worse, but you never understood.)
 
I was just thinking (yes, it hurt!) about this thread and I was wondering...

does anyone else see the irony in the supposed need for a so-called traditional designed khukri in a martial art that is decidedly not traditional?? I AM NOT knocking sirupate's khukri MA at all; it's just not traditional.

It seems to me that this is all pretty silly and more a point of contention brought up by one trying to promote his products under the guise of informing the public than it is anything else.

Limbo lower now!
 
Gurkha said:
Roughedge, tora make the model below, which was rated as one on the top kuks,as well as the gurkha army kuk that the Royal Marines chief armourer and his gurkha colleagues have seen. they will be testing them soon i guess after meeting at Lympstone barracks this week !

Bob i dont think it was said that HI blades are not good, just not original !

if given the choice which would you take into battle ( if you had too)???

And just to finish off, why dont we all see what you are made of with your kukri skills. why dont you all post a video footage of you doing test cuts, a great way to look at different blades strengths and weekness and your technniques??
Click to expand...


Yeah in fact if you read he did say that the Hi stuff was junk. What a joke. Say it is different. Just say that your stuff is the best. There is no reason to try and spread false statments about HI products. Why does Bobwhite need to post video's of "Kukri skills". What is this other then some some kind of lame personal attack against a respected memeber here at Bladeforums. I do not own a Tora blade myself but I have told people interested in Khurks about them so that they could see some of what was out there. This is not something that I will do anymore. I think that it is safe to say that "real Khurks" are tools first and weapon second. So gee I guess I am sorry that the HI line doesn't meet the standards of what you think is the perfect fighting khurk SImon and his various stooges on this thread. But I imagine that many of the Tora line fall short of being the perfect tool to those here also. With that being said I still would not call the Tora product "tourist crap" or imply that it was a substandard product, I wish that you had the same amount of class.
 
A video of me in action would consist of me an my HI 18" ang khola chopping wood. A task that particular blade was made for. It is decidedly not a fighter. It would bore the hell out of you and I don't own the equipment to make a video. I concede the possibility that tora could make a better fighter, I am no judge of such things. If I had to take a khuk into combat, I'd be screwed anyhow. I am not a martial artist. I can tell you about good tools though and HI makes really good tools.
 
Well your loyalty to Himalayan Imports wood choppers is commendable!

They split small fire logs well.We all agree there.. :D

But Munk,Bob etc.

You are on a martial arts forum discusing the martial use of a kukri, not whether your kukris will chop more wood than an axe! :D :rolleyes:
 
take it eat fellas , its just a debate and chat. interesting to see how passionatley people feel about there blades . of course each person is going to say theres is the best and vice versa, lets not get into a slanging match. why not put this to use, as an earlier comment from someone and share techniques and ideas. test cutting on watermelons.turnips wood whatever,,it just gives an idea of ALL you good boys techniques and blades.

i myself am recovering from major spinal surgery (spina bifoda occulta) which was diagnosed 10 years later than when first found !! i spent 12 months being unable to walk without sticks after 10yrs of MA. Sure i have been in the dojo for 3 weeks now, on a saturday to keep up my exercise regime and keep my mind busy. i am in pain most days but stretch and exercise to stop the rot. i am a good MA ,have black belt in Tae Kwon do, Kung Fu, Kickboxing and trained in many style over that peroid,however just happy to be alive and able to walk these days !!!! i have some vid of me and my FIRST test cut if you want to see it , i am no practical expert at this stage but had a good sword hand before my awful problems.
 
kukrilove said:
Well your loyalty to Himalayan Imports wood choppers is commendable!

They split small fire logs well.We all agree there.. :D

But Munk,Bob etc.

You are on a martial arts forum discusing the martial use of a kukri, not whether your kukris will chop more wood than an axe! :D :rolleyes:
Click to expand...


And a martial arts forum is not the place to call another companies product "tourist crap". Compare the different styles of blades if you must but there is no reason to say something so untrue about HI products just to try and promote Toras product.
 
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