Kershaw vs. Zero tolerance

[J_kocaj]

Kershaw and ZT are both great knives anything KAI is done well also love there sister kitchen knives Shun. ZT knives are kershaw knives that are just way over built tanks. ZT are a little to heavy for my liking of an EDC, but to each his own. My ZT gets used but dosent see every day pocket time.

 

[bodog]

Thank you and I appreciate your insight.
best,
salmonkiller

No problem. Happy to help.

 

[jginnane]

I would never carry a leek for duty use, I've seen more than several break. (...)

Thank you, this is valuable input! I had considered the Leek a minor upgrade from carrying an "Olfa cutter" (disposable razor tips) for light duty, but did not contemplate the breakage issue. That's serious.

Personally, I think having a thin, super slicey folder with a lock that's not necessarily the strongest but is extremely reliable and a 3 to 5 inch thick fixed blade made of super strong steel with a glass breaker and edge serrations are the ticket for duty use.

I wonder if that description of the folder could be applied to the ZT 0770CF, or if you think it's too thin to get much done.

I find that I want to carry the same combination off duty, too. ZT doesn't offer anything like that except for maybe the 0180 that was just produced. Every other offering they have compromises something or other of what I want/need.

Here's where the definition of "carry" has to get adapted a little. Any decent 4" fixed blade's going to be about a pound, plus holster, and a foot long. Unless you're really into doing the mountain man thing, "carry" becomes the nearest vehicle and/or secured in a backpack. (I wonder if a JYDII folder would be strong enough for this duty, yet light enough to be carried on your person, generally speaking.)

Something like a spyderco folder and an esee 3 or 4 or similar seems to be the right match for me. There are obviously other companies that play with knives within this realm, whereas ZT doesn't. I'm glad there are options for everyone.

Well, I downsized from a GMC Yukon a couple years ago on the premise that there was about 2 tons of steel I was hauling around that didn't get used on a weekly or monthly basis enough to justify. (I actually had a 370Z for a couple glorious years after, until my wife made me give it up. ;p)

Similarly, in the knife world, I don't think I'm ever going to need to cut a car tire. Maybe a seat belt, some day. As far as the kitchen ... we have a lot of Shun Classic purpose-built blades that are really thin and sharp, plenty for any meat or fish clean enough to bring into the kitchen.

I see the ZT product line as having a bit of elegance, if you will. You, OTOH, who uses knives a lot more than I probably ever will, think they're dainty (if you don't mind my paraphrasing). Am I getting this right?

 

[bodog]

Thank you, this is valuable input! I had considered the Leek a minor upgrade from carrying an "Olfa cutter" (disposable razor tips) for light duty, but did not contemplate the breakage issue. That's serious.



I wonder if that description of the folder could be applied to the ZT 0770CF, or if you think it's too thin to get much done.



Here's where the definition of "carry" has to get adapted a little. Any decent 4" fixed blade's going to be about a pound, plus holster, and a foot long. Unless you're really into doing the mountain man thing, "carry" becomes the nearest vehicle and/or secured in a backpack. (I wonder if a JYDII folder would be strong enough for this duty, yet light enough to be carried on your person, generally speaking.)



Well, I downsized from a GMC Yukon a couple years ago on the premise that there was about 2 tons of steel I was hauling around that didn't get used on a weekly or monthly basis enough to justify. (I actually had a 370Z for a couple glorious years after, until my wife made me give it up. ;p)

Similarly, in the knife world, I don't think I'm ever going to need to cut a car tire. Maybe a seat belt, some day. As far as the kitchen ... we have a lot of Shun Classic purpose-built blades that are really thin and sharp, plenty for any meat or fish clean enough to bring into the kitchen.

I see the ZT product line as having a bit of elegance, if you will. You, OTOH, who uses knives a lot more than I probably ever will, think they're dainty (if you don't mind my paraphrasing). Am I getting this right?

I definitely don't think they're dainty, just incoherently designed, not for what I use knives for. The features that make them desirable for others I find to detract from the usefulness of the knife. big and stout in a fixed blade and small and slicey for a folder. I don't see a purpose of having a thick blade unless you can use it to pry and stab and frame locks and liner locks are proven dangerous in that capacity. So not for me. I can definitely see why other people think so highly of them. They're nice looking, they use good materials, and the have decent tolerances. They're, generally speaking, not for me though. That's just speaking for me and my needs, others vary tremendously.

 

[bodog]

......

 

[jginnane]

I definitely don't think they're dainty, just incoherently designed, not for what I use knives for. The features that make them desirable for others I find to detract from the usefulness of the knife. big and stout in a fixed blade and small and slicey for a folder. I don't see a purpose of having a thick blade unless you can use it to pry and stab and frame locks and liner locks are proven dangerous in that capacity. So not for me. I can definitely see why other people think so highly of them. They're nice looking, they use good materials, and the have decent tolerances. They're, generally speaking, not for me though. That's just speaking for me and my needs, others vary tremendously.

Great conversation! And now to let you in on my (hitherto hidden) premise ...

I was looking at the Chinese knockoffs of a few Kershaw/ZT "grail knives" on [Link Removed] a couple weeks ago. Some were laughably bad. Others seemed to make sense... almost. Bottom line, you can get a replica ZT0888 with mystery metal for ~10% of what the secondary market is showing for the Real Thing.

If you're looking for a thick, stout knife ... you may not even want a knife. Grab a fistful of assorted prybars from your nearest Harbor Freight. When one becomes too bent or dull or mangled to use, toss it and buy another. (I've had this discussion with my plumber who used to use Milwaukee power tools, and now just keeps a running stock of HF disposables. No worries if you leave one at a job; you can buy an extended warranty on power tools for pennies, and they're "good enough" for most tasks.)

This is a bit of playing devil's advocate here, and I'd never confuse a Chinese knockoff for the real thing. My original premise was that ZT must be 20-50% better for doing some things, and now at the other end of the spectrum, I'd guess the knockoffs are at least 20-50% less useful (maybe even dangerous) for doing things. But in a lot of cases, and this is important, the fakes might still be adequate.

Finally, full disclosure: although new to the forums here, I've already got my own ZT 0888. Visually it's not unlike wearing spats. I dread the day I actually have to use it and mar a fancy surface, but it's a real comfortable fit in the hand.

Incoherent design? Well, the first few weeks here I saw a lot about cutting up cardboard boxes and shaving arm hair, so if that's the target demo, then ZT is right on track. )

 

[RevDevil]

Not every knife has to meet the criteria for prying the bed off a truck, nor chopping down a phone pole while making feather sticks on an atom. The trick is to recognize the correct tool for whatever your job is (or might be perceived as) and use that. Some folks like really thick .250" or .5" folding wrecker bars, others like to cut things so they stick with knives that cut efficiently with a 2mm thick blade or even less. How boring if there were only one perspective and only one knife?

The term "incoherent" in this context is ironically incoherent, as it refers to the spoken or written word, not specifically to an object (ie, knife). One must recognize whether any given object on the planet will fill the role you plan on using it as. We do it every day with food, clothes, vehicles, etc, and should be able to apply the same logic to selecting cutting tools.

One final note, we don't condone "fakes", very slippery slope and has a way of cheapening and hurting the hobby. But if that kind of thing really floats your boat, best to leave out links and such as it is not welcome and against the rules here.

 

[bodog]

Not every knife has to meet the criteria for prying the bed off a truck, nor chopping down a phone pole while making feather sticks on an atom. The trick is to recognize the correct tool for whatever your job is (or might be perceived as) and use that. Some folks like really thick .250" or .5" folding wrecker bars, others like to cut things so they stick with knives that cut efficiently with a 2mm thick blade or even less. How boring if there were only one perspective and only one knife?

The term "incoherent" in this context is ironically incoherent, as it refers to the spoken or written word, not specifically to an object (ie, knife). One must recognize whether any given object on the planet will fill the role you plan on using it as. We do it every day with food, clothes, vehicles, etc, and should be able to apply the same logic to selecting cutting tools.

One final note, we don't condone "fakes", very slippery slope and has a way of cheapening and hurting the hobby. But if that kind of thing really floats your boat, best to leave out links and such as it is not welcome and against the rules here.

Agreed. That's why I tried so hard to speak toward my specific needs in the tools I carry or look for and not for everyone. And you're right, I guess i should have used the word illogical in describing a thick bladed folding knife with a lock proven to be less than absolutely reliable. I meant "incoherent" in the sense that the designs COULD make sense if they 1) thinned the blade to where the lock and blade strength are proportioned, or 2) kept the blade thickness and get rid of the lock altogether until they find a lock that doesn't disengage when a little bit of torque is applied to the blade during hard use. Basically, great ideas smashed together in way that looks pleasing on paper but could easily fail performing tasks it was marketed for.

Folding, sharpened pry bars with locks that fail don't make sense for me and my uses. A non-folding sharpened prybar does, and a folding wicked sharp slicer with a reliable but ultimately untrustworthy lock does. Together into one knife? Eh, not so much for me.

 

[jginnane]

A very useful lesson to me. Actually, lesson #1 always is "Don't tick off the moderator in your first 10 posts".

The fake issue is one I hadn't seen getting much (any) discussion in threads here and I didn't see reference in the forum rules I read. However, I've seen this discussed in a lot of other forums, about things other than knives, usually. I wouldn't say any more about the subject here other than to note that my time getting up to speed on knife technology indicates this could never be a solution for me. As in other forums, you don't know what goes into production. You can't reach the factory or customer service with issues.

My wife and I had bought some items (legitimate goods) when we were on tour in Chengdu a couple years ago, and what was delivered to our home in the US was not what we had purchased ... and it took American Express several months to get my 4-figure charge reversed. Worse, we found we'd significantly overpaid versus what was available at traditional portals for Western goods, i.e., in Hong Kong. (Nothing to do with knives, except the sense that a modest technical knowledge of the product(s) was required.)

Today I'd look very hard at even paying 10% for an admitted fake. Watches are another great rip-off -- they actually print catalogs of fakes in Shanghai, and you can get a faux IWC for ~$250 versus $20K. However, the real ones don't have a $10 battery movement inside.

This is not to categorically claim all Chinese production is bad, but as with Kershaw blade production it must be tightly controlled all the way through manufacturing and tested (recertified) again outside. This is not something you can generally do as a retail buyer. A company like Kershaw recognizes the risks and spends to ensure you get what you pay for.

 

[celtic11]

Agreed. That's why I tried so hard to speak toward my specific needs in the tools I carry or look for and not for everyone. And you're right, I guess i should have used the word illogical in describing a thick bladed folding knife with a lock proven to be less than absolutely reliable. I meant "incoherent" in the sense that the designs COULD make sense if they 1) thinned the blade to where the lock and blade strength are proportioned, or 2) kept the blade thickness and get rid of the lock altogether until they find a lock that doesn't disengage when a little bit of torque is applied to the blade during hard use. Basically, great ideas smashed together in way that looks pleasing on paper but could easily fail performing tasks it was marketed for.

Folding, sharpened pry bars with locks that fail don't make sense for me and my uses. A non-folding sharpened prybar does, and a folding wicked sharp slicer with a reliable but ultimately untrustworthy lock does. Together into one knife? Eh, not so much for me.

Serious question.. have you ever seen a ZT frame lock fail during what would be an actual knife task? I've seen a few videos online of guys being able to fold a 550 without disengaging the lockbar. I'm not defending those and I would definitely send mine in if it were like that, but to me one of the redeeming qualities of a frame lock has always been that when you're gripping the knife, especially during hard use tasks, it would be very difficult for the lock to disengage.

 

[bodog]

Serious question.. have you ever seen a ZT frame lock fail during what would be an actual knife task? I've seen a few videos online of guys being able to fold a 550 without disengaging the lockbar. I'm not defending those and I would definitely send mine in if it were like that, but to me one of the redeeming qualities of a frame lock has always been that when you're gripping the knife, especially during hard use tasks, it would be very difficult for the lock to disengage.

No problem, here's a serious answer:

Out of the 5 or 6 ZT's I've owned, not one had a lock bar that made full contact with the lock face, the grinds of the bar or face were uneven. Lock ups were sometimes too early and the ones that had a late lockup had the least amount of bar touching the face. That does not inspire confidence that the lock will withstand abuse should the knife be used in a situation where full faith in the tool is needed. Now in normal cutting duties where adrenaline isn't pumping, I can control exactly how I grip the knife and ensure that the blade doesn't fold, but I could do the same with a slip joint. I can't say if I would think about something like that in an emergency situation. So until I see that they can grind the lock correctly, that the bar fully contacts the face, and that the angles of the face grind itself make sense, I can not and will not trust them in those situations. That's why I pay good money for knives, to trust and rely on them in dire circumstances. The carbon fiber, titanium milling, and KVT system may be the greatest in the world, but if they can't get high quality lock grinding down, then I don't see a point in what they charge, given they purport to be hard use knives for military and law enforcement.

So to summarize, I haven't seen a ZT fail in an emergency, but that's because I don't trust them enough to use them, and i havent seen anyone else, either. There are enough quality knives that DO perform what I need, so it's not something I stress too much about.

 

[jginnane]

not one had a lock bar that made full contact with the lock face, the grinds of the bar or face were uneven. Lock ups were sometimes too early and the ones that had a late lockup had the least amount of bar touching the face.

Bodog, you've got me rethinking my appreciation of the ZT design. ESPECIALLY since, being goofy-handed, I might hold the knife wrong to the point where the framelock disengages. They don't make one of these backwards for leftists!

The only thing is, this critique is almost exclusively for stabbing motions with the knife. Slicing would relieve any stress on the framelock (and transfer it to the pivot).

So until I see that they can grind the lock correctly, that the bar fully contacts the face, and that the angles of the face grind itself make sense, I can not and will not trust them in those situations. That's why I pay good money for knives, to trust and rely on them given dire circumstances.

It would seem that as long as any lock can be moved by simple thumb pressure, it has this same "fatal flaw" in design. Yes, other brands might be better made at this lock point, but are still able to be disengaged in the same way -- so it's a matter of relative degree.

The one solution that comes to my mind is to limit folders to hawkbill blades, like the ZT 0750. That doesn't make the problem go away at all, but tells the user that stabbing is really not what the knife is about.

 

[grownstar]

Remember guys, ALL FOLDING KNIVES ARE ALREADY BROKEN. Doesn't matter how much lock contact there is, or how you grip the knife. These folding knives all have that "fatal flaw" regardless of who makes it. It's all well and good that manufacturers and other users test these knives to their limits, but at the end of the day, if you want a 100% reliable knife that can take any and everything you can throw at it without folding, you should get a fixed blade.

 

[Pilot1]

Remember guys, ALL FOLDING KNIVES ARE ALREADY BROKEN. Doesn't matter how much lock contact there is, or how you grip the knife. These folding knives all have that "fatal flaw" regardless of who makes it. It's all well and good that manufacturers and other users test these knives to their limits, but at the end of the day, if you want a 100% reliable knife that can take any and everything you can throw at it without folding, you should get a fixed blade.

That's an excellent point. All my really hard use knives are fixed blades for woods, and camp use. My folders are for around the house, and carried as a back up to a fixed blade anywhere outdoors. In addition, folders are made to cut, as are most fixed blades although people do use them for other tasks successfully. I carry a light camp saw, and sometimes an axe if I need to split wood or do thing that would be abusive to my knives.

I really see some of the comments about ZT folders somewhat excessively tedious, and overly cautious if you are doing what a folding knife is intended to do. If you are putting an unreasonable amount of strain on any mechanism, it can fail.

 

[Pilot1]

Remember guys, ALL FOLDING KNIVES ARE ALREADY BROKEN. Doesn't matter how much lock contact there is, or how you grip the knife. These folding knives all have that "fatal flaw" regardless of who makes it. It's all well and good that manufacturers and other users test these knives to their limits, but at the end of the day, if you want a 100% reliable knife that can take any and everything you can throw at it without folding, you should get a fixed blade.

That's an excellent point. All my really hard use knives are fixed blades for woods, and camp use. My folders are for around the house, and carried as a back up to a fixed blade anywhere outdoors. In addition, folders are made to cut, as are most fixed blades although people do use them for other tasks successfully. I carry a light camp saw, and sometimes an axe if I need to split wood or do thing that would be abusive to my knives.

I really see some of the comments about ZT folders somewhat excessively tedious, and overly cautious if you are doing what a folding knife is intended to do. If you are putting an unreasonable amount of strain on any mechanism, it can fail.

 

[bodog]

That's an excellent point. All my really hard use knives are fixed blades for woods, and camp use. My folders are for around the house, and carried as a back up to a fixed blade anywhere outdoors. In addition, folders are made to cut, as are most fixed blades although people do use them for other tasks successfully. I carry a light camp saw, and sometimes an axe if I need to split wood or do thing that would be abusive to my knives.

I really see some of the comments about ZT folders somewhat excessively tedious, and overly cautious if you are doing what a folding knife is intended to do. If you are putting an unreasonable amount of strain on any mechanism, it can fail.

I agree with you, which is what leads to the question of what the point is of having an "overbuilt" folding knife. It doesn't make sense to me.

 

[SunOfAtom]

I agree with you, which is what leads to the question of what the point is of having an "overbuilt" folding knife. It doesn't make sense to me.

Wow, this thread is just going to go down every possible and unnecessary road.

What does "overbuilt" mean? Strong? Extra strong? You are asking the point of an extra strong folding knife? You don't see ANY reason why someone might want a strong folding knife? At what point does a folding knife become too strong?

Perhaps you could wander over into the Emerson or Hinderer forum (or many others) and ask why all their unnecessary knives exist. Honestly, I feel like you are now just arguing for arguing's sake.

 

[celtic11]

I agree with you, which is what leads to the question of what the point is of having an "overbuilt" folding knife. It doesn't make sense to me.

What's the point of owning an AR-15? Can it just be because I like it?

 

[bodog]

Wow, this thread is just going to go down every possible and unnecessary road.

What does "overbuilt" mean? Strong? Extra strong? You are asking the point of an extra strong folding knife? You don't see ANY reason why someone might want a strong folding knife? At what point does a folding knife become too strong?

Perhaps you could wander over into the Emerson or Hinderer forum (or many others) and ask why all their unnecessary knives exist. Honestly, I feel like you are now just arguing for arguing's sake.

Overbuilt and strong is a good thing. Overbuilt and not reliably strong doesn't make sense to me. If it does for you, then more power to you. Everyone has their likes and dislikes.

 

[SunOfAtom]

What's the point of owning an AR-15? Can it just be because I like it?

Or "What's the point of any pistol larger than a .38? Just use a shotgun." Philosophical discussions are great and all, but this was a thread asking opinions between Kershaw and ZT.