Kizer 5404a2

This dosent show much, but may shed some light on the blade steel.

I have this old katana that's a piece of s**t, and decided to chop up the sheath. It's made up of some cheap wood and particle board glued together. I just took my Kizer head to head with my spyderco Manix. Both have a 30 degree inclusive edge stroped on balsa wood to a mirror polish.

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As you know, the Manix is CPM-S30V and the kizer is S35VN. I did some light chopping to see how these steels would hold up. Nothing crazy, and I know that a folder isn't meant for chopping, but this is to test what I suspect will happen: the Manix will chip and the kizer will roll; consistent with the differences between S30V and S35VN.

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Just as I expected, the Manix had some small chipping, but maintained a decent edge that still cut paper. This has been my experience with other S30V knives, it holds a great edge, but a little too much work will chip it.

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The kizer was consistent with what I expected too, it rolled rather than chipped, however still maintained a reasonably usable edge. This was my experience with other S35VN knives too. It still cut paper, and the paper I'm using is pretty thin too. The rolls went deeper than the chips did on the Manix, so in the end, an equal amount of damage was done imo.

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All in all, what does this prove? Nothing, however the Kizers edge didn't break/chip/roll so dramatically that I'd consider this "junk steel"...Nuff' said. It also proves that I like to beat up my knives:D
 
Yeah, that's too bad. I really thought that would be a great way for him to answer some of his questions/fears about the blade steel and quality.
 
Insipid Moniker said:
So you just want to complain about them and cast aspersions without making any effort to confirm your positions or seek experiences that may change your mind. Got it.
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You must have a great labratory with lots of equipment to analyze steel types, edge retention, RC measurement, etc. that go into a Kizer knife to be so positively confident about a cheap Chinese import. I don't. Most users don't.

I'm not trying to be negative about Kizer's knives but I would like to see some independent lab reports from someone that does have the testing equipment. I'd like to see some Youtubes from dealers that have been to their plant and verified what they say they are doing. US Dealers don't, and they don't sweat it because they only sell the knives. Any problems they kick back to the manufacture's warranty department, in this case in China.

As I have said in my other posts, I think that they are a great looking cheap China made knife with all the right ingredients (on paper). If true this must be putting the other major world knife makers into a Tizzy. The fact that you can buy a framelock knife of S35V steel blade and titanium scales for the price of a Grip or Delica amazes me and I find it hard to believe that the other guys in the business haven't jumped all over this. I wonder why the Shun-ZT-Kershaw folks haven't produced product like this since their parent is located in Japan. Their knives are about twice what Kizer's cost and they don't have as good a steel in their blades. I'll bet many custom knifemakers can't buy their raw products for what Kizer sells a completed knife for.

How do you think they are doing this? What is your spin? I'd like to hear it if you have facts and figures to back it up. I'm not sure chopping wood with a folder seals the discussion in Kizer's favor.
 
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Zt isn't based in China first off. You are just trolling this thread. It has been reported by multiple sources that Kizer uses crucible steel. Did you ever think maybe Kizer is trying to make their money by selling more at a lower cost than by selling less at a higher cost? They aren't the first maker to sell this kind of knife for 100-150 bucks. And they probably do have cost savings by being directly owner in China vs importing into China to get a product back in the US.
 
GatorFlash1 said:
You must have a great labratory with lots of equipment to analyze steel types, edge retention, RC measurement, etc. that go into a Kizer knife to be so positively confident about a cheap Chinese import. I don't. Most users don't.

I'm not trying to be negative about the but I would like to see some independent lab reports from someone that does have the equipment. I'd like to see some Youtubes from dealers that have been to their and verified what they say they are doing. US Dealers don't, and they don't sweat it because they only sell the knives. Any problems they kick back to the manufacture's warranty department, in this case in China.

As I have said in my other posts, I think that they are a great looking cheap China made knife with all the right ingredients (on paper). If true this must be putting the other major world knife makers into a Tizzy. The fact that you can buy a 3.5" frame lock folder with an S35V steel blade and titanium scales for the price of a Grip or Delica amazes me and I find it hard to believe that the other guys in the business haven't jumped all over this. I wonder why the ZT folks haven't produced product like this since they are also out of China. Their knives are about twice what Kizer's cost and they don't have as good a steel in their blades.

How do you think they are doing this? What is your spin? I'd like to hear it if you have facts and figures to back it up.
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ZT's are an American company, made in America. Not China. Most of their knives are priced in the $100-$200 range, much like Kizer. I wouldn't say they are direct competitors though. Kizer seems to be targeting the art knives segment, whereas ZT is targeting the heavy user segment (though that is changing thanks to the 0770 and the upcoming 2015 models).

Many people criticize Spyderco's Taichung, Taiwan made knives. However, most folks are finding them to be superior quality to the Japan and USA made Spydies, myself included. With both Kizer and Reate making excellent knives in China, the impression of Chinese knives is changing.

Then again, I like my products made by children in Asia, but that's just me :eek:
 
GatorFlash1 said:
You must have a great labratory with lots of equipment to analyze steel types, edge retention, RC measurement, etc. that go into a Kizer knife to be so positively confident about a cheap Chinese import. I don't. Most users don't.

I'm not trying to be negative about Kizer's knives but I would like to see some independent lab reports from someone that does have the testing equipment. I'd like to see some Youtubes from dealers that have been to their plant and verified what they say they are doing. US Dealers don't, and they don't sweat it because they only sell the knives. Any problems they kick back to the manufacture's warranty department, in this case in China.

As I have said in my other posts, I think that they are a great looking cheap China made knife with all the right ingredients (on paper). If true this must be putting the other major world knife makers into a Tizzy. The fact that you can buy a framelock knife of S35V steel blade and titanium scales for the price of a Grip or Delica amazes me and I find it hard to believe that the other guys in the business haven't jumped all over this. I wonder why the Shun-ZT-Kershaw folks haven't produced product like this since their parent is located in Japan. Their knives are about twice what Kizer's cost and they don't have as good a steel in their blades. I'll bet many custom knifemakers can't buy their raw products for what Kizer sells a completed knife for.

How do you think they are doing this? What is your spin? I'd like to hear it if you have facts and figures to back it up. I'm not sure chopping wood with a folder seals the discussion in Kizer's favor.
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Can you point me to the all this reporting info on other production folders? I'd love to see more serious testing on knives, but realistically blades just don't get run through mass spectrometers, so it's not a terribly realistic request.

I'm not buying with a huge amount of confidence, but Kizer has been under the microscope since their products were introduced and the consensus certainly seems to be that they're doing a solid job.

Given relatively low-dollar products that are expensive to test in any meaningful way, you have to make some compromises. We can go by reputation or experience and that's about it. I've done my due diligence pretty extensively and Kizer has been well-reviewed and seems to be making a strong effort in regards to corporate ethics. That's something I like to see. And now I can get some direct experience to solidify my views or to change them at a discount price.

Sorry if I came down hard on you, but I don't understand your angle. If you are really interested in this company you have the opportunity to see what they've got for the price of shipping, but you say that's a waste of time. So you have no plans to buy one, turn down an opportunity to handle one, and demand a level of evidence that's generally unavailable from even the most reputable companies on the market. It's hard not to think that you're being negative for the sake of negativity.

Tell you what, if you want to foot the bill for the testing I'll get in touch and volunteer the knife I have coming so it can be done.
 
Insipid Moniker said:
Can you point me to the all this reporting info on other production folders? I'd love to see more serious testing on knives, but realistically blades just don't get run through mass spectrometers, so it's not a terribly realistic request.

I'm not buying with a huge amount of confidence, but Kizer has been under the microscope since their products were introduced and the consensus certainly seems to be that they're doing a solid job.

Given relatively low-dollar products that are expensive to test in any meaningful way, you have to make some compromises. We can go by reputation or experience and that's about it. I've done my due diligence pretty extensively and Kizer has been well-reviewed and seems to be making a strong effort in regards to corporate ethics. That's something I like to see. And now I can get some direct experience to solidify my views or to change them at a discount price.

Sorry if I came down hard on you, but I don't understand your angle. If you are really interested in this company you have the opportunity to see what they've got for the price of shipping, but you say that's a waste of time. So you have no plans to buy one, turn down an opportunity to handle one, and demand a level of evidence that's generally unavailable from even the most reputable companies on the market. It's hard not to think that you're being negative for the sake of negativity.

Tell you what, if you want to foot the bill for the testing I'll get in touch and volunteer the knife I have coming so it can be done.
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I'm wondering how you can be so clueless about all the counterfeit junk coming out of China. If US or European knife companies were peddling this junk I would just as suspicious of laying out my bucks to buy their product. But that hasn't happened and they have been around a lot longer than Kizer has. Like I said, and perhaps you missed it, they make a great looking cheap Chinese knife, which has quite a bit of comment on BF of copying other knifemaker's designs. Thanks for the offer but I'll stick with my real, made in Taiwan, Spyderco Gayle Bradley as my EDC for now.

http://bestpocketknifetoday.com/how-to-identify-fake-knives/

http://www.autofixinfo.com/QItdSHoWy1Yh0f/Fake-Spyderco-Military-What-To-Look-For.html

http://www.dhgate.com/wholesale/spyderco.html

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zCGpg9ic9SE

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/745623-Spyderco-Gayle-Bradley-Review
 
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GatorFlash1 said:
I'm wondering how you can be so clueless about all the counterfeit junk coming out of China. If US or European knife companies were peddling this junk I would just as suspicious of laying out my bucks to buy their product. But that hasn't happened and they have been around a lot longer than Kizer has. Like I said, and perhaps you missed it, they make a great looking cheap Chinese knife, which has quite a bit of comment on BF of copying other knifemaker's designs. Thanks for the offer but I'll stick with my real, made in Taiwan, Spyderco Gayle Bradley as my EDC for now.

http://bestpocketknifetoday.com/how-to-identify-fake-knives/

http://www.autofixinfo.com/QItdSHoWy1Yh0f/Fake-Spyderco-Military-What-To-Look-For.html

http://www.dhgate.com/wholesale/spyderco.html

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zCGpg9ic9SE

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/745623-Spyderco-Gayle-Bradley-Review
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How am I clueless? There certainly is counterfeit junk coming out of China, but there are also solid products. Kizer has been around for about 2 years now, and despite the initial prejudice against their origin point, they've been well received. There are plenty of reviews out there and a lot of testing has been done, look it up and do some reading. This isn't a flash-in-the-pan company, they seem to be committed to the long game.

If you want to stick to more established brands, that's cool, and initial skepticism about a company like Kizer, or any new company for that matter, is certainly justified, but continued skepticism in the face of evidence either ends up as paranoia or prejudice.
 
You also have to remember many big brand knives have and still are supporting the knife factories in China, by contracting huge amounts of cheaper (than their standard line) knives with them. So, that pumps money into the factories and a direct result is they turn out other higher priced knives on their own. Probably many of these new higher dollar Chinese knives have their roots in factories producing for big name companies. I don't see anyone getting upset about that and swearing off Spyderco, or Kershaw and others just because they prop up the Chinese manufacturers with big money. In fact you can even take in further and say American companies have been (not just knives) for years moving jobs to China for the lower wage cost and we have been voting for the practice with our dollars, when we purchase the goods. Nobody I know has refused to buy a new TV, or computer and many other things we use just because of where it's made. All those dollars going into China is it any surprise when they branch out and do some higher end knives on their own?
 
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Long time reader and modest collector but seldom post. Thanks to this thread I purchased a Kizer Ki423 from BHQ, which does appear to deserve the fit and finish reported here. Of course it would be nice if some jimping had been added, but otherwise really nice, especially considering the materials, which brings me to my point. As another alluded to, I really don't know for sure that any blade I buy is really made of what is advertised or stamped. I read and watch the reviews like most everyone else. I don't think this is a highly regulated industry, so instead I depend on the consensus from folks like you. Thank you.
 
romen said:
Long time reader and modest collector but seldom post.
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Seldom covers it, all right. ;)

romen said:
I don't think this is a highly regulated industry.
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Other than the regulations our friends in the government impose on the industry and the products the industry provides, you're right. It isn't a highly regulated industry. And even if you hold the alloy constant, there's enough variability in other factors that results can vary pretty widely from maker to maker and manufacturer to manufacturer. Last but not least, some folks who never use their knives or if they do, use them very lightly, like to hold themselves out as experts. So you've got to take the time to identify those folks whose expertise is justified and listen to what they have to say before you believe everything you hear.
 
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Well, I must say, this big Kizer has broken in just wonderfully! An incredibly smooth action. I'm really enjoying it.
 
GatorFlash1 said:
FYI

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/1259935-When-is-everyone-okay-with-copying-designs
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I love how you keep making irrelevant points about things that have nothing to do with Kizer. Like, what does that thread have to do with this one? If you don't like kizers, good for you, we don't care. I just don't see the need to persuade a discussion into an entirely different direction if you have nothing but negative input and irrelevant insight to add.

I'm not a kizer fan boy, I probably wouldn't buy one again. But that's not to say they aren't worth their price. They're knives, it's not that hard to make one if you have access to common industrial machinery. With China being the worlds biggest producer of things, there's probably many factories that can make knives to decent tolerances with all the machinery they have.

It's not rocket science, there are way more advanced things than knives coming out of China. I don't see why you act like only the U.S. can make a knife. I'd be willing to bet that these Chinese knife companies are producing more products besides knives, they're probably just a small section of a very large factory. Hence the reason for the lower cost.
 
I bought a Kizer Ki3404A3 via Amazon recently, and I could not sharpen it well enough to get a clean slice through paper. Sure, it said S35VN on the blade, but the edge just wasn't there. I have a mini griptilian that push-cuts paper more smoothly than the Kizer can with a swipe. I sold it to a friend who liked the flipping action of the Kizer. After he spent a lot of time sharpening it, he managed to get it slicing paper half way decently. I'm glad we are both happy now :-).
 
Back in this thread, when the discussion was about the knives, I got torqued (in a good way) about my researched enthusiam for Kizers. Then you guys get me all frizzed about the BladeHQ sale and I ordered the KI302F. Wanted to try the Kizer liner lock and damascus steel. Like the looks of the titanium/CF.

Like "bld522" I bought a KI3404A3, but it hasn't even arrived yet. But the sale, yeah the sale...

I must say, though, that Kizer isn't making easy for fans to identify or distinguish between their models. For example, I invested way too much time in figuring out what, if any, difference there might be between KI 3404-3 and KI 3404A3. Going to their website yields no information about their "prior models." Also could be that their dealers are guilty of a bit of mis-nomenclature. Probably, I hope, Kizer growing pains.

Thanks for reading this tome!


[Country-of-Origin Detour: In 1986, I was one of the first owners of an Acura Legend. Wasn't easy when I visited my Dad, a retired Bethlehem Steel machinist. Not easy when I drove the car into the hinterlands of PA and WV and found mysterious side panel key scratches upon returning to the car in the parking lot. I understand the pro-American opinions, I do. I do buy American and locally when I am able and it is an efficient decision. I'm just not sure that those opinions, especially when they are factually vacant, objectively errant or just plain old brand/flag wavin' loyalty, justify derailing threads. It's about the knives!]
 
The Burgh said:
Back in this thread, when the discussion was about the knives, I got torqued (in a good way) about my researched enthusiam for Kizers. Then you guys get me all frizzed about the BladeHQ sale and I ordered the KI302F. Wanted to try the Kizer liner lock and damascus steel. Like the looks of the titanium/CF.

Like "bld522" I bought a KI3404A3, but it hasn't even arrived yet. But the sale, yeah the sale...

I must say, though, that Kizer isn't making easy for fans to identify or distinguish between their models. For example, I invested way too much time in figuring out what, if any, difference there might be between KI 3404-3 and KI 3404A3. Going to their website yields no information about their "prior models." Also could be that their dealers are guilty of a bit of mis-nomenclature. Probably, I hope, Kizer growing pains.

Thanks for reading this tome!


[Country-of-Origin Detour: In 1986, I was one of the first owners of an Acura Legend. Wasn't easy when I visited my Dad, a retired Bethlehem Steel machinist. Not easy when I drove the car into the hinterlands of PA and WV and found mysterious side panel key scratches upon returning to the car in the parking lot. I understand the pro-American opinions, I do. I do buy American and locally when I am able and it is an efficient decision. I'm just not sure that those opinions, especially when they are factually vacant, objectively errant or just plain old brand/flag wavin' loyalty, justify derailing threads. It's about the knives!]
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I completely agree about the model numbers, I'd really like to see Kizer start naming all their models to make it easier to differentiate and discuss the knives.

Side note, my 5404A2 seems to be rock solid. Fit and finish is easily on par with Spyderco, KAI or Benchmade. Lock came at right about 40% and hasn't moved a millimeter since (not that it should), flipping action broke in very nicely, no bladeplay at all in any direction, too soon to make any real judgement about edge retention, but it has already done better than something like AUS8 from Cold Steel which isn't nothing. At full price it seems like a really solid buy, at $105 it was an absolute steal.
 
Regarding the names, we have started working on it. Later in the year we'll be overhauling our website and hope to make the information more clear and easier to find.

Thank you for your feedback. Send me any suggestions you have and I'll be sure they are passed on to the appropriate team.

Thanks.

Kizer.
 
Kizer Cutlery said:
Regarding the names, we have started working on it. Later in the year we'll be overhauling our website and hope to make the information more clear and easier to find.

Thank you for your feedback. Send me any suggestions you have and I'll be sure they are passed on to the appropriate team.

Thanks.

Kizer.
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I know you guys were working towards getting a subforum here, any luck with it? I recently picked up a Ki401T and I am blown away by it. Really fantastic execution at any price, nevermind the very reasonable $140 it's listed on BladeHQ for.
 
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