KMG vs. TW90 (objective comparison)

[Mudbug007]

I currently grind on a Grizzly. I will be getting a new grinder in March and have read probably every review and thread out there. Ive done some grinding on a KMG and Bader and both are superior machines. I will be able to purchase any grinder I want and narrowed it down to TW90, Wilmont Tag, and KMG along with a horizontal KMG. Price wise they are very comparable, within 500.00 or so. After making a list of what I want Ive decided to go with the Wilmont. My garage is my shop so size was a large consideration. Having one grinder that can do it all in a smaller footprint was the main decision. It really was a toss up between the Wilmont and TW90, I just like the platen, tool rest system better on the Wilmont. That and Chris is a great guy to deal with. I will be doing a review when I receive it, from unshipping to finishing a knife.

I was wondering if anyone was going to bring up the Wilmont TAG-101. It looks far more versatile than the KMG and nearly as versatile as the TW-90. If it had a surface grinding attachment, I'd say it would just as versatile. Hopefully in the near future I'll be having to make the same 'life or death' decisions on which grinder to buy

 

[William Schrade]

From what I can see on the Wilmont website, you need twice the bench space to work in the horizontal position. The TW90 rotates in its own foot print. The only other grinder I've used besides my TW90 is my home made that I use for hogging. I think I'm spoiled.

 

[Chuck Gedraitis Knives]

Having a better grinder won't make you grind better. A poor workman always blames his tools.

 

[J. Hoffman]

No but when u tighten the lock down on it it'll sure chew it up

My TW90 is maybe 1.5 years old, and I have not chewed up the aluminum bars yet. You don't need to wrench on the bolts do hold the tool bar in place, you just need to snug it up. I bet that if that was the only thing holding you back from buying a TW90 Travis would gladly make you steel tool arms instead of aluminum.

 

[Leethal Cutlery]

My TW90 is maybe 1.5 years old, and I have not chewed up the aluminum bars yet. You don't need to wrench on the bolts do hold the tool bar in place, you just need to snug it up. I bet that if that was the only thing holding you back from buying a TW90 Travis would gladly make you steel tool arms instead of aluminum.

That's good to hear. I was just relaying what I've read here on blade forums. I'm not in the market for a new grinder. I have a kmg and I'm happy with it. It does everything I need it too. Esp coming from the grinder I came from, the kmg is a god send. But I'm sure any top tier grinder would have been.

 

[Leethal Cutlery]

Having a better grinder won't make you grind better. A poor workman always blames his tools.

I think this sums it up right here!! Every one has their own favorites and preferences but at the end of the day a tool that has a few extra bells and whistles isn't gonna make you better if you don't know what you're doin in the first place. It takes practice and hard work regardless of the machine. +1 Chuck!

 

[Patrice Lemée]

I completely agree with the grinder not making you better grinder...up to a point. A KMG (or any similar one including TW90) WILL make you a better grinder compared to a 2X42 or even a grizzly vertical grinder.
I had gotten the impression from some of what I had read about the TW90 that it could do the same (if not in the same order of magnitude) when compared to a KMG. Hence my query.
Thanks again for adding your experience/point of view.

 

[Bill Burke]

I know several people who where happy with their kmgs until they used a tw90. The Wertz grinder won't make you a better grinder but there are several little things that will make your grinding easier. one of the biggest is the fact that if you are trying to even out your plunge cuts and need to remove 10-20 thou off one side the belt on the tw stays exactly where you put it where as every other grinder I have used the belt tracks over and makes taking such a small cut nearly impossible.

 

[STR]

It is not for now but I will eventually need another grinder.

I see a lot of threads where the TW90 is mentioned and I am intrigue that some people find it superior to a KMG (what I have now) in the same way a KMG would be compared to a 2X42. Or that's almost what I get from their posts. I've looked at the TW90 and don't get me wrong, it looks great and there may be some intangibles here that you only get by using it. But on paper I see better tracking and versatility (it flips 90 degrees and has a surface grinder att.) as the main advantages and don't see how this makes it the that much better than a KMG. Again, I know it may be better but the new standard making the KMG obsolete?

Again this is not a brand war. I am just curious why the difference between what I see on paper and what I read from some folks.

Educate me.

I love my KMG but as I age the one thing I don't like more and more is the weight of the attachments and the shear bulk of the thing. I'm in my mid 50s and the next one I get will do all the same things but with a lighter weight frame for sure. My joints can't take manipulating it a lot back and forth at times. Otherwise its a great machine.

STR

 

[Kentucky]

Our old coote is solid and even when we do get another grinder I wont sell it..Just too good of a tool...The major difference is the learning curve..Its harder to make nice grinds on a two wheel grinder than on a three/four wheel grinder..You cannot look down on your grind with a two wheel machine..You have to grind by feel alone..when you cant see what your doing it takes a little longer to get good at it.That and a two wheel machine wont hold its track under side to side pressure like a three/four wheel machine will..If you lean on one side of the platen to clean up a plunge then the belt will slip sideways..Its always been that way regardless of belt tension and that way on every two wheel mahine Ive ever used..You just have to learn to work around it.Still a good machine though.

 

[JMJones]

I have a KMG and have watched a tw90 run but I did not use it. TW90 was much quiter than my KMG. However For me the TW90 is a non starter simply because of the tooling arm. I am considering adding another grinder and I already have tooling arms for the 10inch wheel, 5 inch wheel, small wheel, rotary platen and flat platen. To add another grinder I need to buy a frame and a motor (i already have a vfd with a femail plug that runs my surface grinder) Cost will be 605 for KMG chassis, 200-250 for a new motor off ebay. So for 800-850 I have another grinder ready to go instead of 3200 or 3400 for the TW90.

If I was limited to one grinder only or not had the investment in the other tooling, I think the TW90 is a pretty good option. However, I personally think Travis left alot of business on the table because if the tooling was compatable and I could just buy the chassis I would buy the more versatile TW90 as a second grinder and I would bet there are many other KMG, GIB, no weld grinder, ect owners out there who are in the same boat.

 

[Daniel Koster]

That doesn't make sense to me. I have a 2nd grinder so that I can run them at the same time. There are definitely times I need 2 flat platens...or 2 small wheels running. I do that all the time. So, I'd still have to buy a 2nd set of tooling arms + accessories.

 

[javand]

That doesn't make sense to me. I have a 2nd grinder so that I can run them at the same time. There are definitely times I need 2 flat platens...or 2 small wheels running. I do that all the time. So, I'd still have to buy a 2nd set of tooling arms + accessories.

I dunno Dan, I've got two grinders, and I usually leave them set up differently for different ops. I'm sure it just depends on the way you build knives or whatever you do in your shop.

I'll be adding a third grinder this year, and I personally find having multiple grinders that all use interchangeable tooling to be more versatile. It keeps you from having to change a set up that you might need to come back to, and it's also much less prohibitively expensive.

Yeah you probably want to have a flat platen for each grinder, but I've got most small wheel holder and most wheels (which admittedly only need another holder, but the TW-90 holder is different), rotary platen, 8" wheel, 10" wheel, 14" wheel, adjustable slack belt setup, and multiple custom jigs and adjustable tool rests, that all fit both my grinders, and will fit my 3rd when added.

I also have a full sized surface grinder, which can do a million more operations with tooling than the TW attachement.

If space and versatility in that space is your primary concern, there's no doubt the TW-90 is king, but lets be honest about it's advantages and disadvantages, and not pretend it's the answer to every question.

 

[Shawn Hatcher]

I love my KMG. I bought the 2-HP variable with platen, 10" wheel and small wheel attachment, thinking it'd be all I ever need. I dove into knifemaking head first and it quickly became apparent that I need a horizontal option. I fabricated a veritical rest that allows me to grind the profile of my knives, but I have bend over to see what I'm doing. I realize I can fabricate a flipping base, but I'd much rather spend that time/money making knives. I won't say I regret getting my KMG. It's been a great machine. But I will likely replace it with a TW or Wilmont or Uber so I can have a vertical and horizontal option using the same attachments and with the same footprint.

 

[Daniel Koster]

Personally, even though I probably don't have the space...I'd make the space...for a horizontal grinder and a dedicated flat-grinder. It's not just about versatility...or about interchanging parts for me....or setup/take down time....it's about specialization. Grinder A does *these* tasks...Grinder B does *these*...Grinder C does.....and so on.

I'm still unconvinced that it's not economic reasons that are behind most of the arguments for the KMG.

I'm no shill for the TW-90. I'm researching it like everyone else. I just want to make sure I can separate results from hearsay.

Dan

 

[javand]

Personally, even though I probably don't have the space...I'd make the space...for a horizontal grinder and a dedicated flat-grinder. It's not just about versatility...or about interchanging parts for me....or setup/take down time....it's about specialization. Grinder A does *these* tasks...Grinder B does *these*...Grinder C does.....and so on.

I'm still unconvinced that it's not economic reasons that are behind most of the arguments for the KMG.

I'm no shill for the TW-90. I'm researching it like everyone else. I just want to make sure I can separate results from hearsay.

Dan

Great post Dan.

Often times the justifications we make are cover ups for the real reasons, definitely.

I'm personally not a huge proponent of the KMG either, don't have one, and think there are better options for the money, but I also do business with Beaumont, and think they've got some great innovations going on, just the KMG hasn't really evolved compared to other grinders on the market. I also however, don't want to see it getting unfair criticism either.

It all comes down to what you can afford, what your logistical variables are, and your subconscious desires.

When I got started, and built my first grinder, a GIB, I had already been using other grinders, and had a lot of time on a TW-90. I did have financial considerations, and probably would have bought a TW-90 if I could have at the time, because I thought I was going a very different direction with my shop work than I am. I could currently afford to replace my grinders with TW-90s, or Wilmont TAG-101's now if I wanted, but it simply doesn't make any practical sense for me to do so. I am hoping to add a TAG-101 to my stable soon, since I don't currently have a horizontal option, and after using one of these for a while, it fits my needs better than any other option.

I could just build one myself, or modify one of my others, as I had planned, but in the end it's not worth my time.

If you've got time and skills to spare, but not enough to build a grinder from scratch, then the KMG may be the best investment as a "platform" grinder, to customize to your needs. It has as much potential as the owner is willing to put into it. If you don't have the time or inclination, there are a few excellently refined alternatives.

In the end it all comes down to priorities, I've had other makers ask me if I wanted to "be a knifemaker, or a tool maker" recently, I spend more time making non-knives than I do making knives.. I don't know the answer to that question honestly, but if you do, it may justify a greater financial expense, to put more of your valuable time into doing what you want.

 

[TK Steingass]

Gentlemen:

I recently asked for input from the Bladesmith section on Bader & KMG. The feedback I received was they're all good machines and was introduced to the TW-90. I ordered the TW-90 last week from Travis. There were many reasons for this. I have a 1 1/2 HP variable Burr King.....it's a good machine, expensive, and overrated. It's damn noisy too and setup changes are laborious. I also have a 1 1/2 HP Coote with the small diameter attachment - it's a great secondary machine.

I almost bought a KMG, but I liked the ability to quickly go horizontal and do thickness grinding, which I don't have in my shop. Price wise, a full dress KMG is almost as much as a TW-90. I like the direct drive that a TW-90 offers, and I will buy the thickness grinding attachment at a later date. I too like the lighter attachments on the TW-90 and the quieter "ride" - I'm 64 now and I want to save what I got left for grinding rather than luggin'. So, to put it down succinctly, I bought the TW-90 over the KMG for direct drive, quiet ride, thickness grinding , and "plug and play" right out of the box.

The Bader, KMG, and TW-90 are all good machines; there's also Chevy, Ford, and Dodge trucks on the road, and all three are doing just fine. Finally, I like what someone said about hard work, not the grinder that makes a better knife. I've made some fine knives on my Coote, which costs a fraction of what the big name machines cost - you learn the machine and work around its faults, but you have to have persistence and the guidance from experienced makers to make a fine knife on any machine.

 

[Shawn Hatcher]

Personally, even though I probably don't have the space...I'd make the space...for a horizontal grinder and a dedicated flat-grinder.

I've thought about going this route, Dan. Especially since I can use my VFD to control both grinders. But if I have a flipping machine, I can use all of my contact wheels in the horizontal position. For instance, I use my 10" wheel on the profile of my knives all the time, and I don't think the KMG horiztonal grinder would offer me that option.

 

[Sam Salvati]

That doesn't make sense to me. I have a 2nd grinder so that I can run them at the same time. There are definitely times I need 2 flat platens...or 2 small wheels running. I do that all the time. So, I'd still have to buy a 2nd set of tooling arms + accessories.

Dan, for the life of me I cannot figure out why you would need to have two platens or small wheels (same size? I can understand different sizes) running at the same time?

 

[Daniel Koster]

Sam - I taper the fronts of my full tang handles and finish them prior to glue-up. So, I match the handles to each other and grind them flush on one grinder with a flat platen and 90 degree tool rest. Then on the other grinder I have a flat platen set up with a tool rest at 45 degrees to taper the fronts. Doing it this way makes a 4-step process (flatten handles, mark handles from template, grind fronts flush, taper the fronts) into a 1-step process. (disc sander, table, grinder, grinder. repeat) And when you're doing 10 or 20 at a time it really saves time. Just the pick-up-put-down time alone doubles my time.

After glue-up I profile the handles (oversized) to match the tang and then set up one grinder with a small-radius wheel for finishing the part behind the guard and then a 3" wheel for everything else (going around the tang to remove scratches). I do this at both 120 grit and 240 grit. Again, saves a bunch of time. Both wheels are on small-wheel arms - just different styles.

:thumbup:

Dan