KMG vs. TW90 (objective comparison)

Sam Salvati said:
Dan, for the life of me I cannot figure out why you would need to have two platens or small wheels (same size? I can understand different sizes) running at the same time?
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I build slipjoints and have a flat platen set on both my Wilton and Bader III. Many times I have both running, one with a 400 grit and one with a 180 or 220. As I fit up tangs I go from the 220 grit to 400 and back. There are times I wish I had a third grinder running also!

As far as Kmg versus TW90 goes, (and I came real close to pulling the trigger on a KMG before buying my Bader III) I could not get over the belt drive versus direct drive issue. Just seems to me, the more belts, pulleys introduced into a drive line, the more chance for vibrations.
 
This is not an either or discussion. It depends on how you work and what you make. For some the TW 90 is ideal for others the KMG is a better choice. For me its the KMG; I have a full shop with a 3 axis cnc mill and 4 grinders. I make most of my own tooling for the grinders. If I had a smaller shop and needed a more versatile single machine I'd get the TW90.
We all make knives, but each of us has our own way of going about it. I'd say this; its great to have access to so many fine grinders, no matter what the brand name.
 
Sam - pic:

DualGrinders022613.jpg


Excuse the dust! :eek:

Dan
 
I think if both were somehow covered up, the TW90 has a slight tracking advantage due to design that the KMG can not match. That said I truly believe the KMG is the hands down value winner. It's so simple that an average person should be able to keep it running without waiting for any proprietary part from the company. Also, I note that price is always compared at retail amounts, but a KMG can be rigged up with a free or bargain used motor and grind steel just the same as if it had a high end new motor and controller. I don't blame folks who rather make knives than tools, but the cost of the TW90 accessories are not trivial. The TW90 has the edge I think, but at a cost that may not have the same value for different folks.
 
This is a good discussion, while my homemade has served me well, I need/will upgrading in the next couple of months, looking at both the Tw90 and the Wilmont leaning towards the Tw90 mainly because of the surface grinding attachment, I haven't seen either run so absolutely appreciate the information divulged in this thread.
 
The TW-90 is a plug-in and grind machine. The KMG has to be set up, mounted to a bench and the motor lined up correctly and also bolted down. This makes the footprint larger. You don't know what your missing until you've test driven a TW-90. It's like the Mercedes of grinders.
 
When the tw-90 first came out I could not wait to get one but things in life happened and I could not. I had a Bader and Travis offered to sell me just his work rest and small wheel attachment. Here is a question for TW-90 owners how do you like the rest system for me I find it a pain to change around. To many parts I guess. The next is for the owners of surface grinder attachment. How long does it take to set it up ? I have heard it takes some work to get it set up each time you want to use it. Now I will say that they are wonderful grinders and don't believe they are over rated at all. The only thing I don't like are the aluminum arms. The guys that say they don't get marred up don't use the grinder enough,My tw-90 work rest is all kinds of marred up and I don't use it that much.

Brett
 
Don Hanson III said:
Don't know about the others, but I get $100 every time I mention Bader. :cool:
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BaderBaderBaderBaderBaderBaderBaderBaderBaderBaderBaderBaderBaderBaderBaderBaderBaderBaderBaderBaderBaderBaderBaderBaderBaderBaderBaderBaderBaderBaderBaderBaderBaderBaderBaderBaderBaderBaderBaderBaderBaderBaderBaderBaderBaderBaderBaderBaderBaderBaderBaderBaderBaderBaderBaderBaderBaderBader

There, I just paid for my TW-90!:D
 
Brett Mathews said:
When the tw-90 first came out I could not wait to get one but things in life happened and I could not. I had a Bader and Travis offered to sell me just his work rest and small wheel attachment. Here is a question for TW-90 owners how do you like the rest system for me I find it a pain to change around. To many parts I guess. The next is for the owners of surface grinder attachment. How long does it take to set it up ? I have heard it takes some work to get it set up each time you want to use it. Now I will say that they are wonderful grinders and don't believe they are over rated at all. The only thing I don't like are the aluminum arms. The guys that say they don't get marred up don't use the grinder enough,My tw-90 work rest is all kinds of marred up and I don't use it that much.

Brett
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It takes me about 3 minutes to set up my surface grinder and few more to get everything dialed in and zeroed. Others may take more or less time.

As far as the marring of the arms mine are marred a little. Personally I could care less if they are no longer pretty, it doesn't affect the machine one bit. If the arms came anodized or cerakote then they wouldn't have any marring at all. Even KMG now sells aluminum arms. I just bought one yesterday after reading on here that a standard KMG arm will allow you to use your rotary platen. I can't wait to run that on my machine.

The rest can get complicated the first couple of times you use it. It was made that way so you can do things with it you can't on other rests. I wish I had several of them set up permantely for certain jobs to save me time between operations. I'm lucky if I get more than a few days a week to work on knives and anything that saves me time is worth it.
 
jimmyseymour said:
It takes me about 3 minutes to set up my surface grinder and few more to get everything dialed in and zeroed. Others may take more or less time.

As far as the marring of the arms mine are marred a little. Personally I could care less if they are no longer pretty, it doesn't affect the machine one bit. If the arms came anodized or cerakote then they wouldn't have any marring at all. Even KMG now sells aluminum arms. I just bought one yesterday after reading on here that a standard KMG arm will allow you to use your rotary platen. I can't wait to run that on my machine.

The rest can get complicated the first couple of times you use it. It was made that way so you can do things with it you can't on other rests. I wish I had several of them set up permantely for certain jobs to save me time between operations. I'm lucky if I get more than a few days a week to work on knives and anything that saves me time is worth it.
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I agree that the rest is kind of pain to change out between 8" wheel and platen (I use the work rest rarely). I think I may contact Travis just to see if he would sell a separate work rest. Also, did you mean to say that the rotary platen will work with a standard KMG arm, or a standard Bader Arm. It seems like people complain about Travis using 1.25" bars instead of 1.5, but if I'm not mistaken don't the tried and true Baders use 1.25"?
 
Mooseyard said:
I agree that the rest is kind of pain to change out between 8" wheel and platen (I use the work rest rarely). I think I may contact Travis just to see if he would sell a separate work rest. Also, did you mean to say that the rotary platen will work with a standard KMG arm, or a standard Bader Arm. It seems like people complain about Travis using 1.25" bars instead of 1.5, but if I'm not mistaken don't the tried and true Baders use 1.25"?
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My mistake. It won't work with a standard arm but with a bader arm.
 
I copied and pasted this from a past discussion, but I think it has merit here:

Well, just for grins and giggles, I went ahead and did the math for an "equivalent" KMG setup. I'll let everyone draw their own conclusions:

8" grinder package (8" contact wheel, flat platen, work rest, tool arm) $920
VFD bracket: $38
Spare Tool Arm: $80
Small Wheel Attachment: $83
Base Plate: $115

Horizontal Grinder Package: $840
72" extension: $94

KBAC-27D (2hp VFD) ~$400
KBAC-24D (1hp for horizontal) ~$300
1hp and 2hp 3phase motors: ~$500

TOTAL COST = $3370 + Shipping
TW-90 = $3400 + Shipping

Now, here's a couple of things to keep in mind:
KMG Option: You're getting TWO VFD/Motor setups and TWO complete grinders (verticle and horizontal)
Base Plate is not necessary for the verticle grinder, so you can save $115 right there.
I'm actually being generous on Motor and VFD prices as well, as I've priced them quite a bit cheaper in the past from various suppliers. I'm giving (in my opinion) an average cost here.
I did not include a "tool arm" for the small wheel attachment, as I'm not sure if Travis does either. I don't believe either include wheels, so that's moot point (though the horizontal KMG DOES include one small wheel IIRC).

Now, also keep in mind that the stock KMG work rest is not as versatile as the TW-90's, but I do not believe the TW-90's flat platen is as versatile as the KMG's. That's just my opinion, but it's also my opinion that these two points cancel eachother out.
I also think that the vulcanized rubber wheels from beaumont are probably of a slightly higher quality than urethane wheels, but that may be up fo debate as well.

Possible KMG advantages:
Rubber Wheels
1.5" STEEL tool arms
2 dedicated variable speed machines for the same price or cheaper (also zero setup time from one to another)
more versatile flat platen


Possibe TW-90 advantages:
better tracking
more versatile tool rests
smaller footprint with one machine
perhaps easier to change/adjust belts?

Forgive me if I left anything out or overlooked anything. I'm trying to be as fair/impartial as possible on the comparisons.

As for me, KMG has a clear advantage as I'd rather have two machines and less set up time. And although the TW-90 has it's innovations and novelties, I just have a hard time putting that much money for what is in reality a single machine, with a single VFD and motor. It also doesn't appear to use any more material to fabricate, not that it matters much in the grand scheme of things I suppose, but it might make me feel better about the price.

Lastly, for the potential money saved, you could probably get a MAP arm or a rotating platen.
 
knife to a gunfight said:
I copied and pasted this from a past discussion, but I think it has merit here:

Well, just for grins and giggles, I went ahead and did the math for an "equivalent" KMG setup. I'll let everyone draw their own conclusions:

8" grinder package (8" contact wheel, flat platen, work rest, tool arm) $920
VFD bracket: $38
Spare Tool Arm: $80
Small Wheel Attachment: $83
Base Plate: $115

Horizontal Grinder Package: $840
72" extension: $94

KBAC-27D (2hp VFD) ~$400
KBAC-24D (1hp for horizontal) ~$300
1hp and 2hp 3phase motors: ~$500

TOTAL COST = $3370 + Shipping
TW-90 = $3400 + Shipping

Now, here's a couple of things to keep in mind:
KMG Option: You're getting TWO VFD/Motor setups and TWO complete grinders (verticle and horizontal)
Base Plate is not necessary for the verticle grinder, so you can save $115 right there.
I'm actually being generous on Motor and VFD prices as well, as I've priced them quite a bit cheaper in the past from various suppliers. I'm giving (in my opinion) an average cost here.
I did not include a "tool arm" for the small wheel attachment, as I'm not sure if Travis does either. I don't believe either include wheels, so that's moot point (though the horizontal KMG DOES include one small wheel IIRC).

Now, also keep in mind that the stock KMG work rest is not as versatile as the TW-90's, but I do not believe the TW-90's flat platen is as versatile as the KMG's. That's just my opinion, but it's also my opinion that these two points cancel eachother out.
I also think that the vulcanized rubber wheels from beaumont are probably of a slightly higher quality than urethane wheels, but that may be up fo debate as well.

Possible KMG advantages:
Rubber Wheels
1.5" STEEL tool arms
2 dedicated variable speed machines for the same price or cheaper (also zero setup time from one to another)
more versatile flat platen


Possibe TW-90 advantages:
better tracking
more versatile tool rests
smaller footprint with one machine
perhaps easier to change/adjust belts?

Forgive me if I left anything out or overlooked anything. I'm trying to be as fair/impartial as possible on the comparisons.

As for me, KMG has a clear advantage as I'd rather have two machines and less set up time. And although the TW-90 has it's innovations and novelties, I just have a hard time putting that much money for what is in reality a single machine, with a single VFD and motor. It also doesn't appear to use any more material to fabricate, not that it matters much in the grand scheme of things I suppose, but it might make me feel better about the price.

Lastly, for the potential money saved, you could probably get a MAP arm or a rotating platen.
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A kmg can be made to go horizontal quite easily so no need for 2 grinders. Creating a rotating setup saves space and money.
 
You forgot to mention that you can open the TW-90 box, place it on your workbench, plug it in and your grinding!
The KMG needs the motor and base plate mounted to the work bench and the belt set up between the pulleys.
 
Chuck Gedraitis Knives said:
You forgot to mention that you can open the TW-90 box, place it on your workbench, plug it in and your grinding!
The KMG needs the motor and base plate mounted to the work bench and the belt set up between the pulleys.
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While this is true, setup is a one time deal, and relatively simple at that.
After the first hour of owning the machine, it becomes a moot point.
 
Well you left some small stuff out like the pulleys a belt. That and if you buy you motor and vfd from KMG your prices are way off. When I called for to check the price on a KBAC-27 I was shocked $560. Travis's small wheel does come with a tooling arm but no wheels. That said a guy that has the room would be way ahead with two dedicated machine's. Im not sure I have never heard anybody complain about bad tracking with a KMG so this is new to me. The only complaint I here is the belt drive.I could not find the right way to word this so please dont take offens guy but it seems to me many of the guys that are buying the tw-90 are new to knife making and don't have the practical experience to see the + and - off the TW-90 and are just buying because its the latest craz. Now there are many master makers out there that have them and need them due to accuracy reason's but not because it flip vertical / horizontal. It is a super smooth running machine. But like I said most makers would benefit for one vertical and one horizontal grinder rather then a combination machine like the Willmount and Tw-90

This just my educated opinion.

Brett
knife to a gunfight said:
I copied and pasted this from a past discussion, but I think it has merit here:

Well, just for grins and giggles, I went ahead and did the math for an "equivalent" KMG setup. I'll let everyone draw their own conclusions:

8" grinder package (8" contact wheel, flat platen, work rest, tool arm) $920
VFD bracket: $38
Spare Tool Arm: $80
Small Wheel Attachment: $83
Base Plate: $115

Horizontal Grinder Package: $840
72" extension: $94

KBAC-27D (2hp VFD) ~$400
KBAC-24D (1hp for horizontal) ~$300
1hp and 2hp 3phase motors: ~$500

TOTAL COST = $3370 + Shipping
TW-90 = $3400 + Shipping

Now, here's a couple of things to keep in mind:
KMG Option: You're getting TWO VFD/Motor setups and TWO complete grinders (verticle and horizontal)
Base Plate is not necessary for the verticle grinder, so you can save $115 right there.
I'm actually being generous on Motor and VFD prices as well, as I've priced them quite a bit cheaper in the past from various suppliers. I'm giving (in my opinion) an average cost here.
I did not include a "tool arm" for the small wheel attachment, as I'm not sure if Travis does either. I don't believe either include wheels, so that's moot point (though the horizontal KMG DOES include one small wheel IIRC).

Now, also keep in mind that the stock KMG work rest is not as versatile as the TW-90's, but I do not believe the TW-90's flat platen is as versatile as the KMG's. That's just my opinion, but it's also my opinion that these two points cancel eachother out.
I also think that the vulcanized rubber wheels from beaumont are probably of a slightly higher quality than urethane wheels, but that may be up fo debate as well.

Possible KMG advantages:
Rubber Wheels
1.5" STEEL tool arms
2 dedicated variable speed machines for the same price or cheaper (also zero setup time from one to another)
more versatile flat platen


Possibe TW-90 advantages:
better tracking
more versatile tool rests
smaller footprint with one machine
perhaps easier to change/adjust belts?

Forgive me if I left anything out or overlooked anything. I'm trying to be as fair/impartial as possible on the comparisons.

As for me, KMG has a clear advantage as I'd rather have two machines and less set up time. And although the TW-90 has it's innovations and novelties, I just have a hard time putting that much money for what is in reality a single machine, with a single VFD and motor. It also doesn't appear to use any more material to fabricate, not that it matters much in the grand scheme of things I suppose, but it might make me feel better about the price.

Lastly, for the potential money saved, you could probably get a MAP arm or a rotating platen.
Click to expand...
 
Yep - prices are off across the board, all parts not accounted for, "extras" not included (like the 'shield' over the top wheel - don't forget you need 2 of all the goodies you add to both grinders), shipping would be at least double...not to mention powder-coating the parts yourself and a host of other variables like time spent assembling, frustration/aggravation factor, needing 2 tables/counters, etc. Not a reliable comparison. Inaccurate and misguided at best.

But even if it was - you still don't walk away with 2 direct-drive machines...or even 1.




There's lots of hearsay about tracking with the different machines. Would be great if someone that has both machines could make a short video showing the tracking for each grinder.

I would gladly do it on mine as a "belt drive vs. direct drive" comparison, but it wouldn't be 100% fair since my Dozier uses air for the tension pulley and that's different than TW-90.


For me, the biggest difference in tracking is that when you crank the wheel on the KMG it is a sloppy movement and harder to get it exactly where you want it. Whereas on the Dozier it is immediate and accurate...seems to be a "finer" operation. I have seen a TW-90 run and it looks/acts more like my Dozier than my KMG in regards to tracking. You can see it here: http://youtu.be/1r_kROBjLQM at about the 2:30 mark. Small movements with immediate responsiveness. No overshooting, no wobble, no sliding.

And you can't say "well you got a bad KMG"...because I've had 2 and they were the same. ;)

That said, I don't consider this to be the "deal-breaker" that people seem to be making it out to be. I just wanted to make sure that everyone understands that the way the machines each react to grinding is quite different and a direct-drive system is the better system in every category except initial start-up cost. You don't get the same thing as a direct-drive machine just by adding goodies. The foundation principle is different.
 
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