KMG vs. TW90 (objective comparison)

I'd rather have a dedicate horizontal machine rather than one that flipped.

I've never seen one, but it does sound like the TW-90 is a good one grinder plan.

Have two B-IIIs and a KMG now, my next one will likely be a Burr King.
 
Thanks guy, I appreciate all your input. Price comparisons, even if not accurate depending on lots of factors, are interesting. Same as all the opinions given here.

I wanted to know if the TW-90 was, like some reviews made it sound, the new evolution in grinders. The ultimate grinder that everyone wants. *Geekness on* One grinder to rule them all. *Geekness off* ;)

All the info here and especially comments like the one by Don (can't get any better at knifemaking than that) saying he would buy a Burr King next clearly shows me that it is not. It is obviously superior in some ways and I am grateful to Travis for giving us better tools to work with. But it is just another grinder, another tool you choose depending on your needs/likes.

PS: I can't stress enough that this is not a put down of the TW90. I will most likely get one if...ok who am I kidding...when I buy another grinder. But because of all the info here, I will still look at other options before buying.
 
Patrice,
I hope that you will not mind me posting a final thought.

I think that this was/is a great thread. Patrice was one of the very first people to welcome me to the Forums. As such, he knows that from the very beginning I've wanted a TW-90. However, I can't "really" afford one at this moment. I am sure that I'm not the only new guy who "wants it all".
So everyone is talking about spending about $3,000 or so to get a 2x72 grinder that will hold up forever ideally also flip to horizontal has 1 1/2 tooling arms a good tool rest and doesn't break the bank. Most other makers also have or want a 9" Disc sander and a Mill or even a good HT oven, at least I do.
Here's what I came up with.
Willmont LB-1000 grinder.
- uses steel 1 1/2 tooling arms
- can be flipped easily for horizontal grinding with their plates or you could build your own from plywood.
- uses a Direct mount motor- no belt
Cost is $1,500 with VFD add 288 for fully adjustable work rest.

Rod Neilson magnetic 9" disk grinding hub (awesome) $375.00 with a flat and a beveled disc.

eBay for the 9" disc motor, I found one for $188 but let's say $200.00

These two can share the same VFD, Silver_pilate did a WIP on it this, very easy and saves us $300 plus dollars.

And finally you could get a Mini Mill from the Little Machine Shop for $820 or an EvenHeat Oven for $1,000

That brings the total to $3,182 with a mill or $3,363 with the HT Oven.

Of course you could spend less on the 9" or the mill but I like nice stuff so that's how I'm gonna do it.

I will still get a TW-90 one day, but I'll learn a ton between now and then :D


Thanks
-Eric
 
Chuck Gedraitis Knives said:
You forgot to mention that you can open the TW-90 box, place it on your workbench, plug it in and your grinding!
The KMG needs the motor and base plate mounted to the work bench and the belt set up between the pulleys.
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Not if you forget to order belts, like it seems everytime someone gets a grinder that happens LOL.
 
Daniel Koster said:
Yep - prices are off across the board, all parts not accounted for, "extras" not included (like the 'shield' over the top wheel - don't forget you need 2 of all the goodies you add to both grinders), shipping would be at least double...not to mention powder-coating the parts yourself and a host of other variables like time spent assembling, frustration/aggravation factor, needing 2 tables/counters, etc. Not a reliable comparison. Inaccurate and misguided at best.

But even if it was - you still don't walk away with 2 direct-drive machines...or even 1.
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I may not have made it clear, but prices are for vfds and motors sourced else where. Keep in mind that I still included prices for TWO motors and TWO vfds, and I think I was pretty generous at that.
There are much cheaper VFD packages than what Beaumont sells, and even the specific package he sells can be found for a little over half of what Rob lists them for if you look elsewhere. You could even get away with one VFD and two motors, but at a slight compromise I suppose.
As for any other prices being off, I took those directly from beamont's web page.

Concerning powder coating and spark guards, they are more of a luxury than a necessity, and spark guards can be fabricated quite easily and for not much cost.

Also realize you're still getting two machines with the kmg cost comparison. (And the horizontal IS direct drive, and the vertical can be converted. )

As for doubling "goodies" for each machine, I'm not sure I understand what you mean. The prices listed above (minus the belt and pulleys for the vertical.... Ok, I'll generously add $50 for that) include everything you should need to get essentially the same functions as a stock TW-90. I even added things that aren't necessary like a base plate.

I suppose you won't get horizontal capability with a large contact wheel, but a MAP arm could mitigate that.

I'm really not trying to knock the TW-90. It's clearly earned it's spot as a solid, well made and functional machine.
I'm really just trying to give an unbiased cost comparison on what you could actually buy for $3400 (and some change for shipping).
 
Brett Mathews said:
Please show me where you can get a KBAC-27 for half the price Rob sells them for. I bet you cant.
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Brett, in his defense he said "package" not VFD. I don't see on the Beaumont site a price just for a KBAC-27d, but the smallest motor+vfd "package" is $900. Half might be a stretch without it being a surplus motor, but it's certainly feasible. I paid $340 for my KBAC-27d a few years ago, and can find them even cheaper now. I've purchased multiple *new* surplus Baldor motors in the 1.5-3hp range for well south of $100, off brands are pretty easy to source in the $100-$150 range.

So maybe it's a bit of a stretch to say half, but not by far, *especially* since you're not limited by 56C-face motors on a KMG like many other grinders.

Just playing devil's advocate here myself, you may not agree with the man's point, but he does have one. To each his own right?
 
I will say that direct drive is, in my opinion as well, a big plus. And, the Dozier is the smoothest machine I've ever used. I might consider that instead for a high end grinder.

Plug-in-and-go has a big cache for some folks, personally if that's the major difference between two given grinders, and there is a several hundred dollar difference in cost, my time isn't worth that much yet...

I prefer to build my own. No reason it can't be done well, and the rest of the money a spendy grinder would have cost can be spent on other equipment. Just the cost of the motor and VFD in a complete grinder package is so often inflated- I think it's quite reasonable to say one can buy the components for half of what a grinder retailer would soak you.

For whatever it's worth, I have little trouble making minute adjustments in plunge cuts and such on the 3hp grinder I built for less than $400. Including the motor and drive.
 
Brett Mathews said:
Please show me where you can get a KBAC-27 for half the price Rob sells them for. I bet you cant.
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javand said:
Brett, in his defense he said "package" not VFD. I don't see on the Beaumont site a price just for a KBAC-27d, but the smallest motor+vfd "package" is $900. Half might be a stretch without it being a surplus motor, but it's certainly feasible. I paid $340 for my KBAC-27d a few years ago, and can find them even cheaper now. I've purchased multiple *new* surplus Baldor motors in the 1.5-3hp range for well south of $100, off brands are pretty easy to source in the $100-$150 range.

So maybe it's a bit of a stretch to say half, but not by far, *especially* since you're not limited by 56C-face motors on a KMG like many other grinders.

Just playing devil's advocate here myself, you may not agree with the man's point, but he does have one. To each his own right?
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javand said:
Just an example: First hit on google for KBAC-27d, with a "rating" to boot apparently by the guy that makes the Pheer grinders(I only mention this to lend credence that this is a legit listing, even though I haven't purchased from the supplier in question): http://www.electricmotorwholesale.com/9520-KBAC-27D/ $328+shipping.
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I bet I can, but javand was already kind enough to do it for me.

It might also be noted that I said "a little more than half".

That being said, "half" or even less than half isn't impossible if you are patient and know where to look.

Of course, for the sake of fair comparison, I'm trying to give prices that don't involve a lot of searching or "right place, right time" scenarios.
 
Fred.Rowe said:
DSC00737.JPG


Open air sports model KMG.
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That's great. ...Teddy
 
Customer service was a factor in my grinder selection. I'm new and need all the help I can get. :) I didn't have an opportunity to use all the grinders mentioned, but I did contact most of the mfg's. I went with a Wilmont Tag unit because Chris Williams is a wealth of knowledge, VERY accessible, and stands behind his grinders. ...Teddy
 
knife to a gunfight said:
I bet I can, but javand was already kind enough to do it for me.

It might also be noted that I said "a little more than half".

That being said, "half" or even less than half isn't impossible if you are patient and know where to look.

Of course, for the sake of fair comparison, I'm trying to give prices that don't involve a lot of searching or "right place, right time" scenarios.
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While still not close to half. I see your point and did not mean to challenge you.
 
Chuck Gedraitis Knives said:
Just to add even more to discuss, what do you guys think about this grinder?


https://s3.amazonaws.com/hardcore-products.com/Hardcore+Products+Maximizer+Flyer_1.pdf
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That looks pretty neat, but I would like to see a real one as opposed to a drawing. I also wonder what the effects are of running the grit side of the belt on one of the contact wheels. I would think that wheel would wear out quickly, and I would also think that it may imbedded grit or dust that may then embed in a finer grit belt. Otherwise I like the design.
 
Mooseyard said:
That looks pretty neat, but I would like to see a real one as opposed to a drawing. I also wonder what the effects are of running the grit side of the belt on one of the contact wheels. I would think that wheel would wear out quickly, and I would also think that it may imbedded grit or dust that may then embed in a finer grit belt. Otherwise I like the design.
Click to expand...



Chris Williams could answer that question, since he's been using a 2" contact wheel to tightly wrap the belt around small wheels for a while, but I doubt he'll post here. He's usually smart enough not to get dragged into these types of discussions.

I know he's selling a small wheel holder with a 2" contact wheel behind the holder to run the belt face on, for that same purpose, so it must be durable enough that he feels comfortable selling them.

I'm sure there's wear, but as long as the belt isn't slipping, I'm guessing it's not super fast, bear in mind the belt is more rolling over the rubber, which if done smoothly enough shouldn't cause much abrasion at all. I'm sure in the real world application it's not so ideal, but it's also the only way I can think of to tighten around that tight radius on a 3 wheel 2x72 setup.



Does that hardcore grinder run 72" belts? Because from those models, they look like they'd have to be very long.
 
javand said:
Chris Williams could answer that question, since he's been using a 2" contact wheel to tightly wrap the belt around small wheels for a while, but I doubt he'll post here. He's usually smart enough not to get dragged into these types of discussions.

I know he's selling a small wheel holder with a 2" contact wheel behind the holder to run the belt face on, for that same purpose, so it must be durable enough that he feels comfortable selling them.

I'm sure there's wear, but as long as the belt isn't slipping, I'm guessing it's not super fast, bear in mind the belt is more rolling over the rubber, which if done smoothly enough shouldn't cause much abrasion at all. I'm sure in the real world application it's not so ideal, but it's also the only way I can think of to tighten around that tight radius on a 3 wheel 2x72 setup.



Does that hardcore grinder run 72" belts? Because from those models, they look like they'd have to be very long.
Click to expand...

You could wrap your rubber wheel in shrink tubing and protect it quite well. Shrink comes in large diameters and substantial thicknesses. If needed the shrink covered wheel could be tried up in a lathe, drill press.
 
These are in production. My friend Lucas Burnley has one and posted these pictures on facebook.

Bob Loveless used to run a belt in a similar configuration for slack belt grinding and shaping his handles in a vertical position. The Wilmont grinder also can run a belt in the same way.
 
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