Knife for defence against wild critters ?

Well, I know this is a knife forum and all, but if this is really about "statistics," then it's undeniable that bear spray has a much more extensive database of documented incidents to draw from than "people stabbing bears" does. So maybe rather than fixating on knives per se (which seems highly debatable, at best) it would be a good idea to look at what tools actually have the most proven effectiveness?

I'm not saying that bear spray is perfect nor completely reliable in every incident (neither are firearms by any means, nor anything else I know of ), but bear spray has successfully repelled many more aggressive bears than knives have in recent history. And usually without permanent injury or fatality to either party.

At a certain point, if you think that considering what knife you should carry for grizzlies is a logical conversation, then we may as well introduce crowbars and throwing stars into the conversation as well. And I'm sorry, but you probably haven't spent much time in large bear country, nor been close to one, either. The old adage that, "in a knife fight, the winner is usually the one who goes to the ICU" is doubly applicable when the other party is a large, aggressive bear. Maybe this all just an academic conversation, but personally I'd rather not have someone who is inexperienced read this thread and think that confronting a bear with a knife is a reasonable idea. As I said before, just because there are a few very isolated (and mostly anecdotal) cases in which people have gotten lucky and repelled a bear with a knife doesn't make it a reasonable and reliable defense, particularly in comparison to other, easily available options with more real-world data regarding their use to draw from.

An interesting article:

http://www.adn.com/article/are-guns-more-effective-pepper-spray-alaska-bear-attack

"Bear spray was effective in 92 percent of the 50 cases involving grizzlies and 90 percent of the 20 cases involving black bears. No one who used bear spray was killed..."

From the US Fish and Wildlife Service: Bear Spray vs. Bullets - Which Offers Better Protection?:

http://www.fws.gov/mountain-prairie/species/mammals/grizzly/bear spray.pdf

Not surprisingly, I found no credible sources recommending knives for bears.
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Shotgun said:
Wikis aren't acceptable as proof of anything. The best way to use wikis is for quick reference on things that don't really matter. No one takes any "hard data" from a wiki seriously.

I can't believe this thread is still going. Kabar's aren't good for stabbing? I thought that's all they're good for. You guys do know where the name Kabar came from don't you? :D
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Yes. Case Brothers.
 
Codger_64 said:
Yes. Case Brothers.
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The story is, supposedly, that an old mountain man killed a bear with one and wrote the company a letter about how great their knives were. The problem was the guy couldn't write very well so instead of "killed bear" it read "ka bar." :D
 
Shotgun said:
The story is, supposedly, that an old mountain man killed a bear with one and wrote the company a letter about how great their knives were. The problem was the guy couldn't write very well so instead of "killed bear" it read "ka bar." :D
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That is a popular legend that the advertising department capitalized on. Kabar only means Case brothers. Sorry....
 
get a combo ready , a tomahawk a heavy knife 2 sided if possible a bear spray and a taser is what i feel ..any of these could give you time to withdraw the next weapon .
 
Smithhammer
The supporting incident for your article is based on an attack on a group with bear spray and 3 members of a group are down wounded from a grizzly and no one had time to deploy it.
It is evidence of situations bear spray cannot help you, I would like an explanation on why you think its an example on why people should rely ONLY on bearspray and why you seem to think it supports NOT having a knife as last ditch defense against a predating bear. Had it been a predating bear and not a sow defending a cub the attack may not have ended till someone was eaten.

You know what the Yellowstone researchers found was even more effective then bear spray? NOT using bearspray and making noise... 100% effectiveness.
90% of encounters the Grizzly ran off(before they saw it, used radio collars) 10% of encounters it bluffed charged or made aggressive noises before running off. This then actually suggests bearspray GETS you attacked... On the other hand... hunters most often have guns, they most often move silently, and are most commonly going to run into bears because of it.
Stats lie, and the type of bear and situation needs to be taken into account and its impossible to do so... they can also be twisted as I did above... yet my statement was 100% truthful.

However what really needs to be addressed is that at no point has anyone suggested using a knife is a GOOD option, only the LAST option. Further if anyone needed to be told taking on a bear that out masses humans by 3:1 or more is a bad idea, such a human is not capable of listening to said advice.


Another thing you ignore is that some people cant use bear spray, it will kill them... bearspray is also not effective in very high winds, lastly places exist on this planet that are not the USA and carrying bearspray in such places may not be an option... which I should not even have to point out.

PS-This is for wild animals thread... not just bears.
 
Phoynix said:
....I would like an explanation on why you think its an example on why people should rely ONLY on bearspray and why you seem to think it supports NOT having a knife as last ditch defense against a predating bear. Had it been a predating bear and not a sow defending a cub the attack may not have ended till someone was eaten.
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Where did I say that I think it should be the only option? I don't believe I said that at all. I generally carry a decent-sized fixed blade when in the woods, and if my other defenses fail, of course I would use it. I'm not saying 'don't carry a knife,' by any means. I'm merely saying that it constitutes such a desperate, last ditch measure, esp. when confronted by a large angry bear, that I don't really factor it into my bear defense plan. It's just there as a last Hail Mary.

You know what the Yellowstone researchers found was even more effective then bear spray? NOT using bearspray and making noise... 100% effectiveness.
90% of encounters the Grizzly ran off(before they saw it, used radio collars) 10% of encounters it bluffed charged or made aggressive noises before running off. This then actually suggests bearspray GETS you attacked... On the other hand... hunters most often have guns, they most often move silently, and are most commonly going to run into bears because of it.
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I couldn't agree more about the importance of mitigating the chances of surprise, close-range encounters, by doing things like making noise, being continually aware of your surroundings, avoiding traveling in places with limited visibillty when possible, etc. But I don't follow how your statement above leads to a suggestion that bearspray "gets people attacked." Sorry, but you lost me there.

And as a hunter who lives just outside Yellowstone/Grand Teton Nat'l parks, I'm keenly aware of the increased risks to hunters. We have such incidents every year, unfortunately.


Another thing you ignore is that some people cant use bear spray, it will kill them... bearspray is also not effective in very high winds, lastly places exist on this planet that are not the USA and carrying bearspray in such places may not be an option... which I should not even have to point out.
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I don't think I am "ignoring" those factors at all. Though I didn't go into detail above about the shortcomings of bear spray, I clearly said that it isn't perfect nor always effective, and factors such as wind direction would be an example. But I would still say the shortcomings of something like bear spray are far less than the shortcomings of a knife in such a situation, wouldn't you agree?

Phoynix said:
PS-This is for wild animals thread... not just bears.
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Yup. So then let's add moose to the list as well - they often concern me, esp. bulls in the rut, more than bears do. But I'm still undecided on what knife I should carry for repelling a bull moose...
 
A good old fashioned reasonable caliber pistol is a pretty good defense against most North American animals bent on attacking. I do note that I do not travel to other parts of the world where carrying a firearm in a reasonable manner is prohibited. People in those places will have to take their chances with pocket knives and perhaps pepper juice squirters if not prohibited. Tasers are very iffy even on hairless thin skinned human animals.
 
Moose attack!

[video=youtube;h14PveFwLeI]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h14PveFwLeI[/video]
 
Druid, very interesting comments and impressive pictures , thanks. That Disney picture without the fur reminds me on a humans body. Yes, of course, that's all theoretical stuff, but maybe this makes it so interesting - for me.
One last question from my side: If the bear stands in that manner shown by the Disney pictures, what would you estimate is the distance to the heart; what I mean is 1) to only reach the heart and then 2) the necessary added inches to cause damage. Ok, maybe be silliest of all questions, but don't care. Would be very fine if you had an idea.
 
halbschaf said:
Druid, very interesting comments and impressive pictures , thanks. That Disney picture without the fur reminds me on a humans body. Yes, of course, that's all theoretical stuff, but maybe this makes it so interesting - for me.
One last question from my side: If the bear stands in that manner shown by the Disney pictures, what would you estimate is the distance to the heart; what I mean is 1) to only reach the heart and then 2) the necessary added inches to cause damage. Ok, maybe be silliest of all questions, but don't care. Would be very fine if you had an idea.
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The heart would end it quick but can you penetrate ribs?
Also will you be cool enough to aim at one small spot on a bear which attacks you?

I would just cut and stab whatever I possibly can. Waiting and carefully aiming for a kill shot on a moving target sounds too risky and with adrenaline not very doable for me.

If the bear isn't in rage and just wants to eat you then some pain and injuries might convince him that you are not worth the effort.

Relatively unaimed I would try to open his lower belly or go for the neck/throat. There are no bones and and you should be able to cut after a stab. Though I have no clue how resistant bear meat fat skin and hair is to cutting even if the knife is stabbed into it already. If you can't really pull through (anybody ever cut through a bear) then that leaves only a lot of stabbing as fast and as deep as you can.

I heard Russian hunters let the bears almost jump on them and then they cut it open from underneath. Maybe just some exaggerated tales? What kind of knife did they use? Probably needed two hands to cut anything on a bear?
 
Smithhammer said:
Well, I know this is a knife forum and all, but if this is really about "statistics," then it's undeniable that bear spray has a much more extensive database of documented incidents to draw from than "people stabbing bears" does. So maybe rather than fixating on knives per se (which seems highly debatable, at best) it would be a good idea to look at what tools actually have the most proven effectiveness?
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That's just crazy talk. I want a BIG KNIFE :p
 
halbschaf said:
Druid, very interesting comments and impressive pictures , thanks. That Disney picture without the fur reminds me on a humans body. Yes, of course, that's all theoretical stuff, but maybe this makes it so interesting - for me.

One last question from my side: If the bear stands in that manner shown by the Disney pictures, what would you estimate is the distance to the heart; what I mean is 1) to only reach the heart and then 2) the necessary added inches to cause damage. Ok, maybe be silliest of all questions, but don't care. Would be very fine if you had an idea.
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I'm pretty sure that if a bear - especially a BIG bear - stands up on you/me and begins roaring, the last thing on your/my mind is going to be "well, I think the heart is __here__"....and start poking in that spot while I'm:

1. screaming like a girl
2. trying to use my other hand to smack/punch his snapping jaws and thrashing paws and
3. wondering what that warm feeling between my legs is....

I used that Disney picture as a reference. If that's a Grizzly, you'd need "go go gadget arms" to even get CLOSE to hitting its heart. The craning neck alone could very well be in the 3 feet distance...not to mention his four foot long arms....You are already getting your head bit off before you can get close enough to hit a vital.

If that were me in that case, I'd be slashing the crap out of his paws and face/neck - screw the heart shot. That's why I said I'd prefer a 13" blade that's heavy enough to get impact cuts on a swing, sharp enough to do real damage, heavy enough to stun and thick enough to not break when hitting skull or heavy bone. in order to minimize an attack, as with any animal [including the 2 legged versions], severing several smaller or large muscle groups helps negate the use of that appendage. Hitting arteries and nerve bundles is a bonus [especially when talking bear]. You have to remember....some bear are so big that their front paws are as big as an average person's chest. That's a lot of bear to get to...

263198dea15c589b9bf1a73eabbdc3cb_f140.jpg

images

Alaska-Outfitter-031-Grizzly-Bear-004.jpg

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......just for some perspective.....
 
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One major consideration should be for a well made sheath. Many animal attacks are of the surprise type and you need a sheath that will retain the knife during the initial hit. A bear can easily toss you through the air and most cats attack from behind. After that, if you still have any ability to fight back, go for eyes, ears, nose, and throat targets. You may kill the animal with a body stab but you can convince most any living thing to stop biting you if you cost it an eye :) Now of course if a body shot presents itself, of course take it. If you are wrestling with an animal, you shouldn't fight fair or hold back any aggression.
 
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