You´re right. The importance of a good sheath often is underestimated. The best knife is useless if you cannot grab it at the moment you need it.
-
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Knife for defence against wild critters ?
- Thread starter pitdog
- Start date
Me as well, I also would stab whatever I can and wouldn´t wait for a perfect heart stab. Hasn´t anything to do with my question, as I only want to know the estimated distance - let´s say, for to learn something. Cannot explain it better.
Regarding the Russian hunters it sounds like a yoke, but it´s true. I talked to a hunter, who has been to Russia many times to hunt bears and boars. He knows from the hunters there that it´s an effective method trying to cut them open, but it´s not true that they will be waiting till the bear jumps on the hunter. That´s nonsense. They use their usual hunting knives.
By the way: wild boars in Siberia can get extremely big, maybe 600 pounds and more. The tigers there will think twice about attacking them, and those tigers get very huge.
Hunters tell that - if they could choose - they would prefer to fight a bear than a boar with a blade. Also to stab a boar is more difficult as to stab a bear. But - would this be a reason not to think about of making a knife especially to kill hogs? No - there are existing numerous designs of them.
So let´s ask the knifemakers to build one for bears and discuss about it.
Druid, with 1. your´re right, 2. aswell, 3. not.
I´m afraid for such feelings there isn´t enough time.
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This is a James Terrio Handmade knife. James hosts a subforum right here on BF . This is a variation on his Fugitive model. This knife has an 8" blade and a 6" handle for 14" oal. From spine to edge is 2 3/4" at the thickest part.
I live at 8000 feet at the foot of Pikes Peak in Pinewood Springs Colorado. I am four and a half miles outside of the Rocky Mountain National Park and bordered by the Roosevelt National Forest. 8 miles out of Estes Park. This knife is my EDC. There are black bears, deer, puma, and of course Elk out the yang here. Once in a blue moon a yellowstone wolf has shown up but some overzealous type usually shoots it on sight. Just had that occur this week over in Kemling. Sigh.
This kind of knife is too special for me and too heavy to take with me. Of course, it might be the best choice.
That´s the reason I´m looking for a knife which is as small and light as possible, but nevertheless sufficient.
When I´m in the wilderness my standard equipment is a SAK (champ), a small fixed, a large fixed - and a hatchet or tomahawk for rough work. Therefore I don´t need a knife for extremely hard use. The hawk at the backpack isn´t heavy and for me a good choice. The knife at my hip stays sharp and must not be so heavy.
Sorry, this I don't understand. That's not the width?
What's the thickness of the blade and the weight of the knife?
8 inches blade length seems a good choice. In relation to that a 6 inch handle is huge but allows to use both hands if necessary.
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Correction: At the widest part.
Edit: This knife is being reviewed and the results will be posted on Mr Terrios hosted forum in the beggining of the week.
Last edited:
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- Apr 13, 2007
- Messages
- 12,294
Any opinions on the Ka-Bar dagger as a budget Critter Sticker ?
http://www.kabar.com/knives/detail/141
http://www.kabar.com/knives/detail/141
At that point is say tramontina machete
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- Jun 24, 2013
- Messages
- 4,162
I might be wrong but machete sounds to thin. Might bend and even snap.
If only the bears limbs are in reach you can't really stab and there cutting/chopping should be best. (Machete)
When closer then rapid stabbing could be preferred. Or stab once and then pulling through.
Some cross between a bayonet (robust and quick for stabbing) and a chopper (more front heavy) would be best. Now a normal Kukri thick and strong enough for tree chopping might work but it's probably better for stabbing when made thinner (not as thin as a machete) and sharpened at thinner angles and a more pointy tip. Thinner blade might also be good to a point where it still chops meat very well but at the same time becomes quicker than a wood chopper.
The spine would be good sharpened if you slash around wildly and uncontrolled but in case you need to support it I would leave a big portion of the spine unsharpened.
Handguard might be good as well since the knife hand will be what's closest to the bear and thus probably the first thing getting hit.
If only the bears limbs are in reach you can't really stab and there cutting/chopping should be best. (Machete)
When closer then rapid stabbing could be preferred. Or stab once and then pulling through.
Some cross between a bayonet (robust and quick for stabbing) and a chopper (more front heavy) would be best. Now a normal Kukri thick and strong enough for tree chopping might work but it's probably better for stabbing when made thinner (not as thin as a machete) and sharpened at thinner angles and a more pointy tip. Thinner blade might also be good to a point where it still chops meat very well but at the same time becomes quicker than a wood chopper.
The spine would be good sharpened if you slash around wildly and uncontrolled but in case you need to support it I would leave a big portion of the spine unsharpened.
Handguard might be good as well since the knife hand will be what's closest to the bear and thus probably the first thing getting hit.
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I'd submit that "strength/thickness" is subjective to the machete. This one is a shorter bolo type but it's 1/4" thick at the spine. It's also as sharp as a mofo
...but at that rate, it makes more sense to carry a large knife for the benefit of the point to stab with. This bolo of mine is a phenomenal chopper but has a problem stabbing into a bowl of Jello.....so in light of needing a defense blade from critters - using spine thickness as a guiding point for 'strength' [aside from the steels used] - I'd think a CS Trail Master Bowie or some fantastic creation from one of the forum's custom makers makes more sense than even my thick machete.
That's just my $.02 though
I was just kidding about the machete. You have to remember, in order to stab something you have to be close to it. No need to invent bear-jitsu.
Just carry what you will actually use, that way its second nature to pull out whatever knife you have in that last of resorts situation that will probably never happen to anyone on here.
Just carry what you will actually use, that way its second nature to pull out whatever knife you have in that last of resorts situation that will probably never happen to anyone on here.
oh. LOL.
Well there's always the chance you could use something like this as your walking stick:
or
...with a spear pole inserted...
Just keep the scabbard on the blade while walking around and if you have the chance, yank it off if attacked.
Smithhammer
I wouldn't agree at all bearspray is better for the intended purpose then a knife. You seem to want to turn it into one or the other, as has been pointed out repeatedly in this thread the knife is the LAST DEFENSE, not the ONLY or the FIRST. Having bearspray and a knife that's of a decent size/shape is better then having bearspray and no knife. Why you want to turn something into a ONLY ONE KNIFE type argument is beyond me.
Druid staying calm and thinking things though is exactly what a human should do, its our advantage over other animals.
Example of a real life situation of Harry Wolhuter, African ranger.(Also shows how important the suggestion of a good sheath is)
"Although it became dusk very soon I continued to ride along the path - as I had often travelled that route by night during the Boer War to avoid the heat of the summer sun. I gave no thought to lions, as I had never before encountered these animals in those parts. Most of the herbage had been recently burnt off, but here and there a patch of long grass remained. While riding through one of these isolated patches I heard two animals jump up in the grass in front of me.
It was by now too dark to see, but I imagined that the animals in question were a pair of reedbuck, as this had always been a favourite locality for these antelope. I expected them to run across the path and disappear; but instead, and to my surprise, I heard a running rustle in the grass approaching me. I was still riding quietly along when two forms loomed up within three or four yards, and these I now recognised as two lions, and their behaviour was such that I had little doubt but that their intentions were to attack my horse. Although, of course, I had my rifle ( without which I never moved in the veld) there was no time to shoot, and as I hastily pulled my horse around I dug the spurs into his flanks in a frantic effort to urge him to his best speed to get away in time; but the approaching lion was already too close, and before the horse could get into its stride I felt a terrific impact behind me as the lion alighted on the horse's hindquarters.
What happened next, of course, occupied only a few seconds, but I vividly recall the unpleasant sensation of expecting the crunch of the lion's jaws in my person. However, the terrified horse was bucking and plunging so violently that the lion was unable to maintain its hold, but it managed to knock me out the saddle. Fortune is apt to act freakishly at all times, and it may seem a strange thing to suggest that it was fortunate for myself that I happen to fall almost on top of the second lion as he was running round in front of my horse, to get hold of it by the head. Had I fallen otherwise, However, it is probable that the lion would have grasped me by the head, and then this would assuredly never have been written! Actually, the eager brute gripped my right shoulder between its jaws and started to drag me away, and as it did so I could hear the clatter of my horse's hooves over the stony ground as it raced away with the first lion in hot pursuit; itself in turn being chased by my dog Bull.
Meanwhile, the lion continued dragging me towards the neighbouring Metsimetsi Spruit. I was dragged along on my back, being held by the right shoulder, and as the lion was walking over me his claws would sometimes rip wounds in my arms and I was wearing a pair of spurs with strong leather straps, and these acted as brakes, scoring deep furrows in the ground over which we travelled. When the "brakes" acted too efficiently the lion would give an impatient jerk of his great head, which added excruciating pain to my shoulder, already deeply lacerated by the powerful teeth. I certainly was in a position to disagree emphatically with Dr. Livingstone's theory, (1) based on his own personal experience, that the resulting shock from the bite of a large carnivorous animal so numbs the nerves that it deadens all pain; in my own case, I was conscious of great physical agony; and in addition to this was the mental agony as to what the lion would presently do with me; whether he would kill me first or proceed to dine off me while I was still alive!
Of course, in those first few moments I was convinced that it was all over with me and that I had reached the end of my earthly career. But then, as our painful progress still continued, it suddenly struck me that I might still have my sheath knife! I always carried this attached to my belt on the right side. Unfortunately, the knife did not fit too tightly in its sheath, and on two previous occasions when I had had a spill from my horse while galloping after game during the Boer War it had fallen out. It seemed almost too much to expect that it could still be safely there after the recent rough episodes. It took me some time to work my left hand round my back as the lion was dragging me over the ground, but eventually I reached the sheath, and, to my indescribable joy, the knife was still there! I secured it, and wondered where best first to stab the lion. It flashed through my mind that, many years ago, I had read in a magazine or newspaper that if you hit a cat on the nose he must sneeze before doing anything. This particular theory is, of course, incorrect; but at the time I seriously entertained the idea of attempting it, though on second thoughts I dismissed the notion, deciding that in any case he would just sneeze and pick me up again - this time perhaps in a more vital spot!
I decided finally to stick my knife into his heart, and so I began to feel very cautiously for his shoulder. The task was a difficult and complicated one because, gripped as I was, high up in the right shoulder, my head was pressed right up against the lion's mane, which exuded a strong lion smell ( incidentally, he was purring very loudly, something after the fashion of a cat - only on a far louder scale - perhaps in pleasant anticipation of the meal he intended to have) and this necessitated my reaching with my left hand holding the knife across his chest so as to gain access to his left shoulder . Any bungling, in this manoeuvre, would arouse the lion, with instantly fatal results to myself!
However, I managed it successfully, and knowing where his heart was located, I struck him twice, in quick succession, with two back - handed strokes behind the left shoulder. The lion let out a furious roar, and I desperately struck him again: this time upwards into his throat. I think this third thrust severed the jugular vein, as the blood spurted out in a stream all over me. The lion released his hold and slunk off into the darkness. Later I measured the distance, and found that he had dragged me sixty yards. Incidentally, it transpired later that both first thrusts had reached the heart."
Full story http://www.thekruger.com/stories/draggedoffbyalion.htm
Actual knife used
I wouldn't agree at all bearspray is better for the intended purpose then a knife. You seem to want to turn it into one or the other, as has been pointed out repeatedly in this thread the knife is the LAST DEFENSE, not the ONLY or the FIRST. Having bearspray and a knife that's of a decent size/shape is better then having bearspray and no knife. Why you want to turn something into a ONLY ONE KNIFE type argument is beyond me.
Druid staying calm and thinking things though is exactly what a human should do, its our advantage over other animals.
Example of a real life situation of Harry Wolhuter, African ranger.(Also shows how important the suggestion of a good sheath is)
"Although it became dusk very soon I continued to ride along the path - as I had often travelled that route by night during the Boer War to avoid the heat of the summer sun. I gave no thought to lions, as I had never before encountered these animals in those parts. Most of the herbage had been recently burnt off, but here and there a patch of long grass remained. While riding through one of these isolated patches I heard two animals jump up in the grass in front of me.
It was by now too dark to see, but I imagined that the animals in question were a pair of reedbuck, as this had always been a favourite locality for these antelope. I expected them to run across the path and disappear; but instead, and to my surprise, I heard a running rustle in the grass approaching me. I was still riding quietly along when two forms loomed up within three or four yards, and these I now recognised as two lions, and their behaviour was such that I had little doubt but that their intentions were to attack my horse. Although, of course, I had my rifle ( without which I never moved in the veld) there was no time to shoot, and as I hastily pulled my horse around I dug the spurs into his flanks in a frantic effort to urge him to his best speed to get away in time; but the approaching lion was already too close, and before the horse could get into its stride I felt a terrific impact behind me as the lion alighted on the horse's hindquarters.
What happened next, of course, occupied only a few seconds, but I vividly recall the unpleasant sensation of expecting the crunch of the lion's jaws in my person. However, the terrified horse was bucking and plunging so violently that the lion was unable to maintain its hold, but it managed to knock me out the saddle. Fortune is apt to act freakishly at all times, and it may seem a strange thing to suggest that it was fortunate for myself that I happen to fall almost on top of the second lion as he was running round in front of my horse, to get hold of it by the head. Had I fallen otherwise, However, it is probable that the lion would have grasped me by the head, and then this would assuredly never have been written! Actually, the eager brute gripped my right shoulder between its jaws and started to drag me away, and as it did so I could hear the clatter of my horse's hooves over the stony ground as it raced away with the first lion in hot pursuit; itself in turn being chased by my dog Bull.
Meanwhile, the lion continued dragging me towards the neighbouring Metsimetsi Spruit. I was dragged along on my back, being held by the right shoulder, and as the lion was walking over me his claws would sometimes rip wounds in my arms and I was wearing a pair of spurs with strong leather straps, and these acted as brakes, scoring deep furrows in the ground over which we travelled. When the "brakes" acted too efficiently the lion would give an impatient jerk of his great head, which added excruciating pain to my shoulder, already deeply lacerated by the powerful teeth. I certainly was in a position to disagree emphatically with Dr. Livingstone's theory, (1) based on his own personal experience, that the resulting shock from the bite of a large carnivorous animal so numbs the nerves that it deadens all pain; in my own case, I was conscious of great physical agony; and in addition to this was the mental agony as to what the lion would presently do with me; whether he would kill me first or proceed to dine off me while I was still alive!
Of course, in those first few moments I was convinced that it was all over with me and that I had reached the end of my earthly career. But then, as our painful progress still continued, it suddenly struck me that I might still have my sheath knife! I always carried this attached to my belt on the right side. Unfortunately, the knife did not fit too tightly in its sheath, and on two previous occasions when I had had a spill from my horse while galloping after game during the Boer War it had fallen out. It seemed almost too much to expect that it could still be safely there after the recent rough episodes. It took me some time to work my left hand round my back as the lion was dragging me over the ground, but eventually I reached the sheath, and, to my indescribable joy, the knife was still there! I secured it, and wondered where best first to stab the lion. It flashed through my mind that, many years ago, I had read in a magazine or newspaper that if you hit a cat on the nose he must sneeze before doing anything. This particular theory is, of course, incorrect; but at the time I seriously entertained the idea of attempting it, though on second thoughts I dismissed the notion, deciding that in any case he would just sneeze and pick me up again - this time perhaps in a more vital spot!
I decided finally to stick my knife into his heart, and so I began to feel very cautiously for his shoulder. The task was a difficult and complicated one because, gripped as I was, high up in the right shoulder, my head was pressed right up against the lion's mane, which exuded a strong lion smell ( incidentally, he was purring very loudly, something after the fashion of a cat - only on a far louder scale - perhaps in pleasant anticipation of the meal he intended to have) and this necessitated my reaching with my left hand holding the knife across his chest so as to gain access to his left shoulder . Any bungling, in this manoeuvre, would arouse the lion, with instantly fatal results to myself!
However, I managed it successfully, and knowing where his heart was located, I struck him twice, in quick succession, with two back - handed strokes behind the left shoulder. The lion let out a furious roar, and I desperately struck him again: this time upwards into his throat. I think this third thrust severed the jugular vein, as the blood spurted out in a stream all over me. The lion released his hold and slunk off into the darkness. Later I measured the distance, and found that he had dragged me sixty yards. Incidentally, it transpired later that both first thrusts had reached the heart."
Full story http://www.thekruger.com/stories/draggedoffbyalion.htm
Actual knife used
Last edited:
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- Jun 24, 2013
- Messages
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If you have the luxury of being dragged away still alive and not mortally wounded it seems you have time to feel for the lions heart and stab it.Smithhammer
I wouldn't agree at all bearspray is better for the intended purpose then a knife. You seem to want to turn it into one or the other, as has been pointed out repeatedly in this thread the knife is the LAST DEFENSE, not the ONLY or the FIRST. Having bearspray and a knife that's of a decent size/shape is better then having bearspray and no knife. Why you want to turn something into a ONLY ONE KNIFE type argument is beyond me.
Druid staying calm and thinking things though is exactly what a human should do, its our advantage over other animals.
Example of a real life situation of Harry Wolhuter, African ranger.(Also shows how important the suggestion of a good sheath is)
"Although it became dusk very soon I continued to ride along the path - as I had often travelled that route by night during the Boer War to avoid the heat of the summer sun. I gave no thought to lions, as I had never before encountered these animals in those parts. Most of the herbage had been recently burnt off, but here and there a patch of long grass remained. While riding through one of these isolated patches I heard two animals jump up in the grass in front of me.
It was by now too dark to see, but I imagined that the animals in question were a pair of reedbuck, as this had always been a favourite locality for these antelope. I expected them to run across the path and disappear; but instead, and to my surprise, I heard a running rustle in the grass approaching me. I was still riding quietly along when two forms loomed up within three or four yards, and these I now recognised as two lions, and their behaviour was such that I had little doubt but that their intentions were to attack my horse. Although, of course, I had my rifle ( without which I never moved in the veld) there was no time to shoot, and as I hastily pulled my horse around I dug the spurs into his flanks in a frantic effort to urge him to his best speed to get away in time; but the approaching lion was already too close, and before the horse could get into its stride I felt a terrific impact behind me as the lion alighted on the horse's hindquarters.
What happened next, of course, occupied only a few seconds, but I vividly recall the unpleasant sensation of expecting the crunch of the lion's jaws in my person. However, the terrified horse was bucking and plunging so violently that the lion was unable to maintain its hold, but it managed to knock me out the saddle. Fortune is apt to act freakishly at all times, and it may seem a strange thing to suggest that it was fortunate for myself that I happen to fall almost on top of the second lion as he was running round in front of my horse, to get hold of it by the head. Had I fallen otherwise, However, it is probable that the lion would have grasped me by the head, and then this would assuredly never have been written! Actually, the eager brute gripped my right shoulder between its jaws and started to drag me away, and as it did so I could hear the clatter of my horse's hooves over the stony ground as it raced away with the first lion in hot pursuit; itself in turn being chased by my dog Bull.
Meanwhile, the lion continued dragging me towards the neighbouring Metsimetsi Spruit. I was dragged along on my back, being held by the right shoulder, and as the lion was walking over me his claws would sometimes rip wounds in my arms and I was wearing a pair of spurs with strong leather straps, and these acted as brakes, scoring deep furrows in the ground over which we travelled. When the "brakes" acted too efficiently the lion would give an impatient jerk of his great head, which added excruciating pain to my shoulder, already deeply lacerated by the powerful teeth. I certainly was in a position to disagree emphatically with Dr. Livingstone's theory, (1) based on his own personal experience, that the resulting shock from the bite of a large carnivorous animal so numbs the nerves that it deadens all pain; in my own case, I was conscious of great physical agony; and in addition to this was the mental agony as to what the lion would presently do with me; whether he would kill me first or proceed to dine off me while I was still alive!
Of course, in those first few moments I was convinced that it was all over with me and that I had reached the end of my earthly career. But then, as our painful progress still continued, it suddenly struck me that I might still have my sheath knife! I always carried this attached to my belt on the right side. Unfortunately, the knife did not fit too tightly in its sheath, and on two previous occasions when I had had a spill from my horse while galloping after game during the Boer War it had fallen out. It seemed almost too much to expect that it could still be safely there after the recent rough episodes. It took me some time to work my left hand round my back as the lion was dragging me over the ground, but eventually I reached the sheath, and, to my indescribable joy, the knife was still there! I secured it, and wondered where best first to stab the lion. It flashed through my mind that, many years ago, I had read in a magazine or newspaper that if you hit a cat on the nose he must sneeze before doing anything. This particular theory is, of course, incorrect; but at the time I seriously entertained the idea of attempting it, though on second thoughts I dismissed the notion, deciding that in any case he would just sneeze and pick me up again - this time perhaps in a more vital spot!
I decided finally to stick my knife into his heart, and so I began to feel very cautiously for his shoulder. The task was a difficult and complicated one because, gripped as I was, high up in the right shoulder, my head was pressed right up against the lion's mane, which exuded a strong lion smell ( incidentally, he was purring very loudly, something after the fashion of a cat - only on a far louder scale - perhaps in pleasant anticipation of the meal he intended to have) and this necessitated my reaching with my left hand holding the knife across his chest so as to gain access to his left shoulder . Any bungling, in this manoeuvre, would arouse the lion, with instantly fatal results to myself!
However, I managed it successfully, and knowing where his heart was located, I struck him twice, in quick succession, with two back - handed strokes behind the left shoulder. The lion let out a furious roar, and I desperately struck him again: this time upwards into his throat. I think this third thrust severed the jugular vein, as the blood spurted out in a stream all over me. The lion released his hold and slunk off into the darkness. Later I measured the distance, and found that he had dragged me sixty yards. Incidentally, it transpired later that both first thrusts had reached the heart."
Full story http://www.thekruger.com/stories/draggedoffbyalion.htm
Actual knife used
However I imagine a usual lion bear cheetah attack will be over faster.
There is simply no time to think and feel around. Still you can use your human mind if you apply it to prepare for such events (see this discussion here)
But in the actual event I would resort to wildly stabbing and slashing whatever gets in reach. I've been in hairy situations and can tell you with adrenaline there isn't much thinking going on and too complicated stuff even if trained for years just doesn't work.
Now if reflected on these incidents later one might assign purpose and conscious intent to certain actions when in reality it was just pure luck or instinct. Especially if you write a book about it or tell others.
He himself describes himself as being scared and inactive for a long time during that event. Lucky the lion gave him enough time to switch on his superior human brain and do something. Is that something we should count on?
Last edited:
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- Messages
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Didn't have much of a choice there right hand in the bears mouth already.Or just be a real man and use your teeth.
I'm trying to imagine with my arm down the throat if my head would have enough reach to bite the bears throat. Maybe only if it's a tiny bear and it's not my arm down the throat but only my hand between the teeth.
Anyways it's the second time I'm reading this I think the other one was a native lady having her arm down a bears throat.
What's up with this?
Do bears like to swallow limbs first.
Or is it just the human extending his arms in defense and too frozen to move so it's simply the first thing the bear can put between his teeth ?
Or is it something strategic the human defender does on purpose?
Interesting story. Seems as if many countries have their own manner to defeat against critters. In Russia hunters let the bears jump on them to cut them open, in Africa the hunters let the lions attack them, dragging them off to the dining place and during that waiting for the best moment to stab the critter into the heart.
It's astonishing that this was possible with such a kitchen fighter, but I'm pretty sure, in the situation described here pepper spray would have been more critical to get managed.
It's astonishing that this was possible with such a kitchen fighter, but I'm pretty sure, in the situation described here pepper spray would have been more critical to get managed.