Knife for the wife to carry

I thought man-killing was a byproduct of stabbing people in general.

Being a premed is sooo confusing.

Oh, that reminds me, I've been wanting to do this for awhile.


SOo fast... (It's from some shoe commercial)

Look at this really neat car.

60_12.JPG
 
In addition:

the original intent of my posts was to address Epo's original statement: what kind of knife to get for his wife for SD and utility.

I could very well list a whole bunch of my favorite knives for him to choose from.

But self-defense, particularly for a woman, is a very serious issue. Giving an untrained person an SD tool, without training her how to USE that tool, is irresponsible.

I provided examples in my own school where those with knife training can still be subdued by a determined opponent. I even provided the example of Carlos Newton who was actually knifed and proceeded to encapacitate his attacker. I wouldn't want that to happen to someone who believes that a knife is some sort of magic wand that can stop deranged, drugged-out attackers. As I pointed out, without training, the knife can end up being used against you.

All this to make a simple point that a knife is NOT a magic wand that can STOP an attacker. It may cut him, it may hurt him, but it won't STOP him.

I want Epo to be aware of this, considering that his wife's security is of the utmost importance to him. I cannot, in good conscience, recommend a sebenza or AFCK, knowing that having this alone will not protect his beloved wife. It would be irresponsible of me to do so.

For those who choose to deride me for this is simply ignoring the common sense notion that you need to know HOW to use a tool before you can actually DEFEND yourself with it, be it edged weapons or firearms.

Ignoring this notion is irresponsible.
 
My wife has several knives, but the one in her pocket the most is her Benchmade mini-grip (blue). My sister also has 2 of them in purple that she really likes.

For self defense, my wife carries a 1911. I don't worry about her one bit. :)

Greg
 
Well DGG when we arrive ahead of the cops,we sit at the corner lights out, untill the cops arrive and clear the scene. So you'll still be waiting for the cops which on a good day will mean only 7 minutes or so. On our busy nights I have heard the cops backed up as many as 80 priority one calls at a time.That would be a few hours unless you call in and say weapons are in use,which many people have learned to say...

1/3rd of our 911 calls come from cell phones. My guess would be 50% don't know where they are when they call. A couples houses from ABC street may turn out to be 20 or more. East bound on the expressway almost always turns out to be west bound. Calls from cells turn into one big game of hide and seek.

Most of the false calls come from cell phones also. So the second you don't find anything, you ask dispatch for where the call came from. The second they say "cell call" your thinking phoney call ask them to do a call back and return to service.

Your free to rely on a cell phone to call 911 if you wish, but as someone who works with in that system, its not what I choose to do.
 
4 Ranges,

I think that you have misunderstood what I was trying to say, or perhaps I have not made myself clear.

Let me try again...

The blade training that I received in the military (US Army 1986-1992) was the same training that every Soldier receives in Basic Training.

We were taught how kill a man with our bayonet and rifle.
And we were taught how to kill a man with a knife or an unmounted bayonet.
We were also taught how to kill a man with an entrenching tool (E-tool).

I'm not bragging or trying to come off as some badazz-ninja-assassin, but what I said it the truth, plain and simple.
The whole purpose of US Army Basic training is to convert civilians into Soldiers and teach them how to kill other humans, be it with machine guns, rifles, grenades, pistols, claymore mines, bayonets, knives, E-tools, or with bare hands.
Some Soldiers are just better at it than others.

Your friends who are SF or Ranger or Navy SEAL might not go around talking about "killing a man", but make no mistake, that IS what they were trained to do.
Don't get bent out of shape at me just because I actually came out and said it.

As for the jujitsu and TKD training:
A (you'll love this) Ranger friend of mine was teaching jujitsu to me when I was stationed at Ft. Lewis, however I did'nt get very deep into it because I was sent to Korea for a year.
It was during that year in Korea (Camp Casey, 2ID, in case you're wondering) that I studied TKD.
What young Soldier can pass up the chance to study TKD while living in the very birthplace of that art?

Now, I can understand that you're maybe somewhat defensive about my statements regarding you're teachings.
But don't think that you can judge my skill or experience from a few internet postings.

I'm 38 years old and, while I would'nt dream of saying that I've seen it all (because I have not), I have been around the block a time or two.
I've seen men fight, and I've fought men, and I've seen men die.
I've have used a blade on other men and I've had a blade used on me.

I currently work at a large hospital and I see guys everyday who have been beaten, stabbed, cut, and shot.
Some "walk" out of the ER and some don't.

But my point is (again):
If you think that training in a must in order for someone to defend themselves with a knife, then you are in for a rude awakening by an untrained guy with a knife one day.

And I believe that you should be concerned that your trained guys could'nt defend themselves, even when armed, against an attacker that was unarmed.
You even seem proud of the fact!?

Allen.
 
Allenc:

I'm proud of the fact that my UNarmed students can defend themselves well against an armed attacker. That's a much more difficult feat to achieve, based on your own logic that anyone can hurt another person using a knife, regardless of training or lack thereof.

I'm not arguing whether a person with a knife can hurt their opponent.

I'm arguing that a person with a knife, without proper training, will not be able to STOP their attacker, especially if that attacker is not intimidated, or is psychotic, or is high on cocaine. It is ignorant and irresponsible to believe that having a knife will guarantee your safety.

It won't.

I had a classmate who got mugged and was stabbed 10 times on his left side.

My classmate took him down, mounted him, and KO'd his attacker. Interestingly, my classmate was in such a zone that he didn't even realize he had been stabbed. No long term damage done to him.

There's a video on the internet of a man being arrested by 5 police officers. The man was high on pcp and was on a rampage.

5 police officers fired 5 shots from their tazer guns. All landed.

The man just ripped them off his body, and proceeded to attack and chased after all 5 officers.

Imagine, if you will, the same deranged maniac attacking and violating your wife (if you have one).

Your wife has no training, but she has that nifty spyderco ladybug you got her, in case she has to fight off a deranged lunatic that's high on PCP.

If you really believe that, even without any training, she can STOP this man from hurting her, defending herself against such a deranged lunatic, who probably outweighs her by 80lbs., who's probably stronger than her, who is also impervious to pain, and is determined to do what he will to her as he pleases...then brother, it's YOU who's in for a rude awakening.

Peace,
4 Ranges
 
4 Ranges, how large was the knife that stabbed your friend? 10 times and
he still disarmed and mounted and ko'd the guy? Even a five inch blade would
wreak havoc (stomach, liver, LI, UI) on the human body. Not to be rude, was
the guy fat? A nice couple of inch layer of fat is hard for a knife to push
through.

And the PCP attack is an extreme example, even if they are shot they still
might not stop. But if a carotid was sliced that would stop the whole thing in
say 10 seconds.

And if one is going to rely on a tool for defense, one had better be able to
imploy the thing effectively. A quality video or DVD may turn the trick but
how much is one's life worth?
 
4 Ranges,

Classmate stabbed 10 times....5 shots from a tazer....high on pcp....deranged maniac....deranged lunatic high on pcp!

Okay, we're all adults here (probably), and I'm sure that we all will agree that nearly anything is possible, but don't you think that you're listing some rather far-fetched senarios?

And even if one of your unlikely (to put it mildly) senarios was to occur, what difference would having self-defense training make against a "deranged lunatic that is high on pcp", and outweighs the wife by 80 lbs, and is impervious to pain, anyway?

You might as well have asked "what if 10 tigers attack your wife and all she has is a pocket-knife and no training"?

Sometimes it's just a "no win situation".
And sometimes even guys like Navy SEALS and Army Rangers die, even though they are well trained and well armed.

But the facts are that most folks are not attacked by "deranged lunatics high on pcp".

You said:
"I'm arguing that a person with a knife, without proper training, will not be able to STOP their attacker, especially if that attacker is not intimidated, or is psychotic, or is high on cocaine."

You're wrong, plain and simple.
It happens all the time.

Allen.
 
Lots of different scenarios thrown up by this thread - As per the topic, I would suggest a small fixed blade - probably a Hideaway Knife for its concealability, ease of deployment and difficulty to disarm.
I like to give my female partners brief training in breaking a hold that they might be placed in by a male attacker, giving them just enough time to run away from the scene. An easily accessible fixed blade, used to slice or stab the attacker if they are held, could give your partner that split second needed to break the hold and run.
 
fixer:

If I remember correctly (this was 5 years ago), it was 4.5". BUT he had layers on (it was in winter), and I'd say he had about 15% bodyfat.

As for the PCP attacker, yes a carotid shot would stop him for sure. But without training, it's highly unlikely that the defender could land the shot. Hence the need for training.

As for the DVD, those are good, but quality instruction from a qualified instructor is the way to go. So you can drill it, learn the right techniques, etc.

allenc:

These are plain facts that I stated. You can't argue their likelihood because they did happen.

How likely is it that terrorists are going to fly planes into buildings AGAIN? You tell me, brother.

Training helps you stay calm in a high-stress situation because you've trained for it. There are no surprises that can throw you, nothing unexpected that can make you freeze. Training helps you make the right decisions against a determined attacker. This should be clear to you, since you yourself have received knife training in the military.

As for the 10 tigers, this is a silly statement. Can you name me an instance where 10 tigers attacked somebody in an urban setting? One would suffice.

As for me being "wrong, plain and simple", boy you got me there. Your abilities at debate are really too much for me.

As for me never using a knife in SD, how does that have any bearing on whether my argument is right or not?

Unlike you, I'm proud to say I've never used a knife in an SD situation.

I'd stay clear of anyone who posts on a public forum that they've done so, or that they know how to kill a man with a knife. There's just something disturbing about a person who would say that for all the world to know.

Based on your logic, are you saying that Dan Inosanto, James Keating, Paul Vunak, Leo Gaje, Chris Sayoc, Marc Denny, Jeff Chung, Dwight McLemore, and James Loriega - all acclaimed knife instructors, fyi - men who have never claimed to have stabbed anyone, have to bow to your expertise because you claim, on the internet of all places, to have used "a blade more than once?"

Are you more of a knife expert than these acclaimed instructors, because you simply stabbed someone? If that is what you're really saying, you're more disturbed than I had previously thought.

Think about what you're saying. It implies a truly disturbed mindset on your part.
 
Lone Hunter said:
Well DGG when we arrive ahead of the cops,we sit at the corner lights out, untill the cops arrive and clear the scene. So you'll still be waiting for the cops which on a good day will mean only 7 minutes or so. On our busy nights I have heard the cops backed up as many as 80 priority one calls at a time.That would be a few hours unless you call in and say weapons are in use,which many people have learned to say...

1/3rd of our 911 calls come from cell phones. My guess would be 50% don't know where they are when they call. A couples houses from ABC street may turn out to be 20 or more. East bound on the expressway almost always turns out to be west bound. Calls from cells turn into one big game of hide and seek.

Most of the false calls come from cell phones also. So the second you don't find anything, you ask dispatch for where the call came from. The second they say "cell call" your thinking phoney call ask them to do a call back and return to service.

Your free to rely on a cell phone to call 911 if you wish, but as someone who works with in that system, its not what I choose to do.
Click to expand...

I didn't say "only" I said "best" form of protection was a cell phone, IMHO. I really can't believe the firefolks would sit in their vehicles and watch a women being assulted so I'm questioning your statement. If it is true they should be ashamed of themselves, in my humble opinion.
 
4 Ranges,
Okay, I guess I'm still not expressing my views in a clear manner...

You said:
"These are plain facts that I stated. You can't argue their likelihood because they did happen."

4 Ranges, If you say that those things happened then I believe you.
But how often to you think a guy gets stabbed 10 times and live to talk about it?
How many times have you heard of a guy getting "tazed" 5 times, and then ripping them off and chasing 5 cops down the street (and I wonder why they did'nt shoot him with their pistols at that point)?

Yes, all of that could happen, but I think that it is fair to say that they are unlikely occurances at best.

You said:
"Training helps you stay calm in a high-stress situation because you've trained for it. There are no surprises that can throw you, nothing unexpected that can make you freeze. Training helps you make the right decisions against a determined attacker. This should be clear to you, since you yourself have received knife training in the military."

4 Ranges, I agree wholeheartedly with your statement above.
I have never said that self defense training did'nt have its benefits.
Sure, get some training!
Why not?
But a person of average intelligence and strength should not feel that they cannot defend themselves without such training.
There are millions of people all over the world who, despite having no self-defense training, have defended themselves from attackers.
It can be done.
I know this to be true because I have done so myself.


You said:
"As for me never using a knife in SD, how does that have any bearing on whether my argument is right or not?"
And this:
"Based on your logic, are you saying that Dan Inosanto, James Keating, Paul Vunak, Leo Gaje, Chris Sayoc, Marc Denny, Jeff Chung, Dwight McLemore, and James Loriega - all acclaimed knife instructors, fyi - men who have never claimed to have stabbed anyone, have to bow to your expertise because you claim, on the internet of all places, to have used "a blade more than once?"
Are you more of a knife expert than these acclaimed instructors, because you simply stabbed someone?"

Let's be clear on this, I have NEVER said that I was any kind of knife expert.
I also don't know anything about the folks that you have listed (except that I like the Chinook II designed by Keating).
These guys might be great instructors or they might be big frauds--I don't know.
But I do believe that it is wrong (and even perhaps deceptive or unethical) to instruct others if you have never "practiced what you preach" yourself.
And I personally would NEVER seek out instruction in knife fighting from someone who has never actually cut or stabbed another human, or someone who did'nt even know how to kill a man with a knife.

You might find that to be disturbing, but you are talking about KNIFE FIGHTING, after all.

You said:
"Unlike you, I'm proud to say I've never used a knife in an SD situation.
I'd stay clear of anyone who posts on a public forum that they've done so, or that they know how to kill a man with a knife. There's just something disturbing about a person who would say that for all the world to know."

I am very surprised that you would find my remarks disturbing.
You, yourself have posted plenty of remarks on various threads about knife fighting, self defense, etc...
What do you think knife fighting is all about?
What do you think that fighting knives are designed for?

And you also say that you have friends that are Army Rangers and Navy SEALS...
What do you think they trained to do?
If you find my remarks to be disturbing then your blood would turn to ice if you sat in on a Ranger training session.

And, above all else, you instruct other folks in methods of combat, both with and without weapons.

In your own words:
"My unarmed students don't look to "disarm" their armed trained partners.
They're instructed to HURT their opponent. I don't believe in disarming an unhurt opponent.
The results were just as shocking to me. I thought the armed students with slice my unarmed boys to ribbons. But this was not the case.
Now, mind you, the unarmed students STILL got cut, but they weren't DANGEROUS cuts to the throat, eyes, arteries, etc. They were in fleshy areas like the delts, lats, and upper chest. Stabs were not experienced. The average number of cuts was 4.
I instructed my students to go all out,..."

But you found my remarks to be disturbing?

Are you sure that you have the proper mindset to be teaching guys how to fight and possible maim or kill other folks?

Allen.
 
No we won't watch anyone get beat. But if we're diapatched to a shooting, stabbing ,assault( and with a murder rate 4x's NYC's its often). We cut the lights and sirens and wait at the end of the street till the PD has cleared the scene and said its ok to come into the scene.

In fact I'm on my way in now, and over the weekend we had 3 murders and 5 people stabbed, could be a rock'in night.
 
"Yes, all of that could happen, but I think that it is fair to say that they are unlikely occurances at best."

Considering that most criminals are psychotic or drug-addicted, I don't think it's a far fetched scenario.

"But how often to you think a guy gets stabbed 10 times and live to talk about it?"

I've read enough instances to know that it's actually quite common, especially if the attacker doesn't know what he's doing. I once read an article about a father and son who tried to kill each other with knives, and it showed some pretty ghastly wounds (16 per victim). Father and son actually lived. So that's another instance.

"I know this to be true because I have done so myself."

I thought you said you were TRAINED to kill a man? Now you're saying you've been able to defend yourself WITHOUT training? Hmmm, sounds fishy to me.

"I also don't know anything about the folks that you have listed."

This says a lot about your lack of knowledge with regards to knife training. You have now proven, without a doubt, how little you know about the subject you're talking about.

"These guys might be great instructors or they might be big frauds--I don't know."

You're right - you don't know. It's like talking about firearms, but you admit to not know who Masaad Ayoob is. Again, it says volume about your ignorance.

"And I personally would NEVER seek out instruction in knife fighting from someone who has never actually cut or stabbed another human."

By your definition, Charles Manson would be your ideal knife instructor. You sir are very disturbed.

"You, yourself have posted plenty of remarks on various threads about knife fighting, self defense, etc...
What do you think knife fighting is all about?
What do you think that fighting knives are designed for?"

Unlike you, I don't talk about killing another person.

Knife fighting is about DEFENDING yourself by using a knife. Although the option of killing is heightened by using such a dangerous weapon, it is a LAST option for any humane being whose only goal is to stop their opponent from doing them harm. Nowhere in my posts did I say that the intention in self-defense is to take life; the intention of self-defense is to preserve life.

You seem to have missed this aspect of your training.

What makes your remarks so disturbing is that you're willing to discuss killing on a public forum, especially since the discussion was nowhere near the subject of taking another person's life. THAT'S what I find disturbing about you, and the tone of your discussion.

As for my students, you seem to have missed the point. A student is taught to slice another person "to ribbons" to replicate a real-life scenario, so that the UNarmed student can benefit from training against a truly resisting opponent.

The drill was constructed specifically for the unarmed student to fight against a maniac with a knife.

The purpose of the drill was NOT intended to make any of my students BECOME knife-wielding maniacs. Is that clear?

As for my mindset as an instructor, again, you have missed the point of martial art.

I do not instruct my students to maim, kill, vaporize their opponent for the sake of doing so. They are trained to STOP their opponent from doing them harm. They are taught the MEANS to maim and kill, but they are not taught the DESIRE to maim or kill.

For you to have missed as much as you have, from not knowing who Keating or Inosanto are to thinking that knife-fighting is about killing people indicates a couple of things.

One, you have little knowledge on the subject that you are talking about.

And two, you have mental health issues that I'd recommend you address outside of this forum, as you can be a danger to yourself by talking the way you do on a public forum.
 
Correct me if I'm wrong here, but Charles Manson didn't stab anybody.
That was the three girls under orders.

I think.

But I digress.



I don't really want to get involved too much because it doesn't matter what I say, but for the folks who are actually reading (and not arguing) and maybe are wondering:

I worked in the E.R. for a good while. I did see one such guy survive 7 slashes/stabs, including ones on his neck (!?). In fact, he was, scarring aside, essentially totally recovered and left the hospital in a week.

But that guy does not represent the norm. Most patients with multiple stab wounds....

we should also establish that the guy was not fighting back in the middle of this. I mean, barely surviving does not mean he was kung fu master six stabs in and only the seventh got him.

This isn't the movies, after all. We do die.


Killin folk is the natural byproduct of putting holes in unusual places. Like their neck. It happens. You stab them with a knife, you shoot them with a gun, you don't have to try and kill them, just expect to.
 
Artful:

I think Charles Manson did, but not at the Tate murders. I think he murdered someone else. I could very well say he could take instruction from the BTK Killer, as he's stabbed many an innocent person. The point is the same: he prefers to learn knife-fighting from people who have actually stabbed or slashed someone.

If that's the case, he can call the BTK Killer his sensei.

As for knife-fighting=killing, again, not necessarily so. Slashing the hand, slashing the forehead, slashing the forearm, slashing the backs of the knees do not lead to death. They simply incapacitate an opponent by severing ligaments and tendons. These are all legitimate targets that knife-fighting students are trained to hit, as "killing" an opponent is not an oft-recommended tactic, especially for civilians who are only looking to defend themselves.
 
4 Ranges,

"Considering that most criminals are psychotic or drug-addicted, I don't think it's a far fetched scenario."

I'm curious, where did you get this information?
I don't believe it to be true.

"I've read enough instances to know that it's actually quite common..."

Well, In the ER where I work, I have never seen a guy stabbed that many times who survived.
Maybe some other heathcare workers, or firefighters, or LEOs can post their opinions on the notion.

"I thought you said you were TRAINED to kill a man? Now you're saying you've been able to defend yourself WITHOUT training? Hmmm, sounds fishy to me."

I first time that I used a knife on a guy it was a couple of years before I joined the Army (I was 16 at the time).
I was a pudgy teen and he was quite a bit bigger and stronger than me and that's all I'm going to say about that.

"This says a lot about your lack of knowledge with regards to knife training. You have now proven, without a doubt, how little you know about the subject you're talking about.
These guys might be great instructors or they might be big frauds--I don't know.
You're right - you don't know. It's like talking about firearms, but you admit to not know who Masaad Ayoob is. Again, it says volume about your ignorance."

I freely admit that I am not a martial artist and I am not a knife-fighter.
And the subject at hand is NOT knife training.
I also judge any instuctor by my personal experience with them.
Since I have never met any of those guys and I have never received any training from them, why would I have an opinion of them?
Have you personally trained under every person that you listed?
If so, then you are much more qualified to judge them than I.
If not, then you don't really know if they are great of full of crap, yourself.

"And I personally would NEVER seek out instruction in knife fighting from someone who has never actually cut or stabbed another human...
By your definition, Charles Manson would be your ideal knife instructor. You sir are very disturbed."

I did'nt realize that you were a "shrink" too.
If I were trying to become a great piano player, I would'nt take lessons from someone who had never played piano.
And if I were trying to become a great knife-fighter, I would'nt take lessons from someone who had never been in a real knife-fight.

BTW, you might be too young to remember the actual murders and the following trial, but Charles Manson himself has never killed or even stabbed anyone.
It was his "family" that did the killing.

"Unlike you, I don't talk about killing another person."
And
"What makes your remarks so disturbing is that you're willing to discuss killing on a public forum"

Really?
Do you remember this thread?
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=361824
You were rather explicit on the details in that one.


"Knife fighting is about DEFENDING yourself by using a knife.
Nowhere in my posts did I say that the intention in self-defense is to take life; the intention of self-defense is to preserve life.
You seem to have missed this aspect of your training."

Again, I was never trained in "knife fighting", but I do know this...
Gunfighting is basicly two or more persons shooting at each other with the intent to kill.
Swordfighting is basicly two or more persons using sword against each other with the intent to kill.
So why would knifefighting be any different?

"One, you have little knowledge on the subject that you are talking about."

Really?
You seem to be the one that is only a "shadow boxer".
I mean, you have never actually used a knife in a real self-defense situation, right?
So how do you know that you would even have the mindset to actually slice-and-dice another human?
How do you know what your own reaction would be to a spray of blood across your face?
We get students in the hospital who perform very well in the classroom, but the first time they're in the ER and see a bloody mess of a guy from a car wreck, they don't perform so well.
It's one thing to tell someone how to slice an opponent's weapon-arm brachial artery, but it's another thing altogether to actually slice the artery and have blood spraying all over.
That's why I would never trust a knife instructor who has'nt "been there, done that".

Allen.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top