-
The BladeForums.com 2024 Traditional Knife is ready to order! See this thread for details: https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/bladeforums-2024-traditional-knife.2003187/
Price is$300$250 ea (shipped within CONUS). If you live outside the US, I will contact you after your order for extra shipping charges.
Order here: https://www.bladeforums.com/help/2024-traditional/ - Order as many as you like, we have plenty.
Knife Making Startup Costs....Need Input/Help
- Thread starter madupree
- Start date
- Status
Thank you, I think I will be fine as well
- Joined
- Dec 6, 2011
- Messages
- 244
I am with Adam. I wish you all the best of luck to make it work.
I have been a developer and builder for years. My company builds projects that end up in magazines. Some amazing estate homes and wineries amongst them. From a custom beach bungalow to a mall, there isn't really
Istically anything in the realm of a home or commercial project we can't turn in to reality. That being said, as much as I understand about craftsmanship, and as much of it as I have done myself, and with countless hours of CAD and design experience, there is no way I would be comfortable committing to trying 4-8 practice blades and then producing 50 for sale. Of course I can't imagine someone placing such a large order wuthout seeing a prototype or sample of your work either. I have a good friend that is an architect. He can design some beautiful things but he wouldn't be the guy to actually have build them.
I have been a developer and builder for years. My company builds projects that end up in magazines. Some amazing estate homes and wineries amongst them. From a custom beach bungalow to a mall, there isn't really
Istically anything in the realm of a home or commercial project we can't turn in to reality. That being said, as much as I understand about craftsmanship, and as much of it as I have done myself, and with countless hours of CAD and design experience, there is no way I would be comfortable committing to trying 4-8 practice blades and then producing 50 for sale. Of course I can't imagine someone placing such a large order wuthout seeing a prototype or sample of your work either. I have a good friend that is an architect. He can design some beautiful things but he wouldn't be the guy to actually have build them.
Thank you for the input! !
- Joined
- Oct 13, 2011
- Messages
- 1,774
honestly man, I read this whole thread waiting for the punch line and I was hoping this was a joke at first... but seeing as you appear to be sincere, I wish you nothing but the best and I hope you pull it off. IMHO you may be underestimating a few things and overestimating a few others, but I'm also pretty negative at times so don't read too much into it. I'll just ask you to look at it in reverse... having never made a single piece of furniture in my entire life, if I were to give you a list of great tools and whatnot and asked you what you thought about me going into business and making a limited production run of 100 pieces for a furniture company because of a couch I drew up, what would your advice be? if grinding a straight line in a jig was the easiest part of this whole endeavour, every one of us would be making a lot more money at this than we are currently. just food for thought.
Well I guess in the end it will come down to what is produced in the end, the main question was if I was on track about tools needed but in the end it got overlooked and my skillset that nobody except those that know me and my father who taught me most of what I have applied to what I have made is what was criticized; and that's fine and expected. Thanks again for all the input.
Very well said.
It'd be irresponsible not too.
I'd hate to see the follow up post 2 months down the track where you found out you totally underestimated everything, knowing it couldve been easily avoided through our due diligence.
I'd suggest you buy the grinder and the drill press. make 1 to 4 knives and then re-evaluate.
You may very well find you have no aptitude for it whatsoever. In which case you wont be $5k in the hole.
What are these knives going to sell for?
- Joined
- Nov 6, 2012
- Messages
- 822
glues, waxes, oils, pins and handle materials
I have that all figured in to consumable materials of the first batch of knives, I'm more interested in the actual 'tools' in this thread
Definitely following this thread. I hope you continue to post on this endeavor good or bad.
My advice would be go for it only if you are comfortable afterwards if the 50 knife sale falls on its face and you're left with some nice knifemaking equipment. If the sale falls through and you can't withstand the financial outcome of buying all that and making no money with it, I would not try this.
Good Luck
My advice would be go for it only if you are comfortable afterwards if the 50 knife sale falls on its face and you're left with some nice knifemaking equipment. If the sale falls through and you can't withstand the financial outcome of buying all that and making no money with it, I would not try this.
Good Luck
- Joined
- Oct 13, 2011
- Messages
- 1,774
agreed. sorry for being negative and as I said, I do wish you the best of luck. I just had to throw in my two cents after reading 3 pages of this thread I just started typing because to be honest your plan is optomistic. I gotta hand it to you, you are doing it and that's more than I can say for me cranking them out one at a time and playing it too careful maybe... again good luck and please post pics of your progress.
I guess my concern is this could turn out multiple ways. One, the guy "ordering" these is writing cheques his ass can't cash and you make 50 knives that they don't buy. Two, you make 50 knives that aren't as good as the lovely drawing. They could have too much variation between them, poor grinds, or they just don't like them, and you don't get paid. Three, everything goes perfect on your first knifemaking endeavour and everyone wins. I'm betting it won't be a clean cut option three the whole way along. And forget stabilizing yourself, it's just not going to be worth it. We are not saying don't use the material they want, just get it done by the pros. I have made 40 or so knives so far. And I certainly would not entertain a 50 knife order at this time.
- Joined
- Nov 13, 2010
- Messages
- 636
What you are attempting, I have been there and not done that. Only my number was 70. I failed miserably. However like you said you will be hiring out everything other than grinding. Where as I was attempting to do it all. Trust me when I say it will take more than 4 to 8 to get a great blade even with a jig. but perhaps you are not after perfection. There is always a market for a cheaper cost user blade.
Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith
ilmarinen - MODERATOR
Moderator
Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider
- Joined
- Aug 20, 2004
- Messages
- 38,074
You are an engineered wood specialist and CAD designer - Would you want to live in a house designed by a fellow who knew nothing about CAD and then built 6-8 joists before he built your dream house? ( and laminated all the joists/beams himself with hobby equipment in his garage)
I would think a person with your experience would see the flaw in your plan. 6-8 knives can be the number of knives that it takes some people to get their first acceptable knife...not a delivery ready commercial product. Most folks would say that 50-100 knives ( made one at a time, not in a batch) would be what was needed to learn the skills to make a presentable product for single knife sales.
There is a lot left off your list if you plan on making commercial grade knives......a lot! To be frank, the prices you show are ones for hobby grade use, not production use. I would expect one who plans on making 50 knife batches would spent $10K at the start-up of a good shop, and spend another $10K over the next few years of knifemaking. Many of us have $50K in our shops and still don't have everything we want or need. Many with $50K in their shops would run away from a 50 knife commercial order from a "Fortune 500" company. That level of skill takes years of experience.
I would also suggest that you forget the stabilizing equipment, as it has no real use or advantage to a novice. Any stabilizing equipment and supplies that cost $300 is just some sort of woodturning hobby stuff....not the same as the stabilizing done for knife handle material. Same word, different definitions.
FYI,
The forum rules don't allow registered users to discuss selling in the forums. Since your discussion is pretty much wishful thinking, I'll let it slide, but lets concentrate on the knifemaking discussion not the dream of making and selling a 50 knife lot to a fortune 500 company.
If you are set on trying this, start with posting your design here and letting the fellows critique the drawing and your build plan. Much that goes in a CAD or sketch doesn't translate well into a finished and workable knife. Just be aware that it will take a year of hard practice and many failed knives to get ready to build that order.
I would think a person with your experience would see the flaw in your plan. 6-8 knives can be the number of knives that it takes some people to get their first acceptable knife...not a delivery ready commercial product. Most folks would say that 50-100 knives ( made one at a time, not in a batch) would be what was needed to learn the skills to make a presentable product for single knife sales.
There is a lot left off your list if you plan on making commercial grade knives......a lot! To be frank, the prices you show are ones for hobby grade use, not production use. I would expect one who plans on making 50 knife batches would spent $10K at the start-up of a good shop, and spend another $10K over the next few years of knifemaking. Many of us have $50K in our shops and still don't have everything we want or need. Many with $50K in their shops would run away from a 50 knife commercial order from a "Fortune 500" company. That level of skill takes years of experience.
I would also suggest that you forget the stabilizing equipment, as it has no real use or advantage to a novice. Any stabilizing equipment and supplies that cost $300 is just some sort of woodturning hobby stuff....not the same as the stabilizing done for knife handle material. Same word, different definitions.
FYI,
The forum rules don't allow registered users to discuss selling in the forums. Since your discussion is pretty much wishful thinking, I'll let it slide, but lets concentrate on the knifemaking discussion not the dream of making and selling a 50 knife lot to a fortune 500 company.
If you are set on trying this, start with posting your design here and letting the fellows critique the drawing and your build plan. Much that goes in a CAD or sketch doesn't translate well into a finished and workable knife. Just be aware that it will take a year of hard practice and many failed knives to get ready to build that order.
It's ambitious, I'll give you that.
A couple things I haven't seen mentioned, but I think require consideration.
First, you said you're doing the handle mats yourself. Have you figured on all the tools, mats, storage and workspace you're going to need for that?
Second, after you have all your handle blanks done, do you have room to lay out, glue and clamp 50 scale/liner sets? Do you have room to lay out, glue and clamp 50 completed knives? Do you have clamps for 50 knives?
Keep in mind, if you've figured on dual use for some or all of your work area, you won't be able to do another task until the first task is done. For example, you can't glue handles if you're grinding blades, and you can't start grinding another batch of blades if you have clamped up knives laying all around.
Third, do you have a dust collection system for your handle finishing area? Do you have a handle finishing area?
Fourth, what steps have you taken with regards to packaging? You're not just going to dump 50 knives in a bag and deliver them.
I don't have any experience making knives myself, so I can't really give advice on the tools you've chosen. I've been shopping for grinders myself, and I can say the choices can be a bit overwhelming. I can tell you, though, from experience in other business ventures, it is usually the simplest things that are most overlooked...and usually cause the biggest headaches.
I wish you the best.
Brian.Evans
Registered Member
- Joined
- Aug 20, 2011
- Messages
- 3,267
Look, all this is great. And soooooo not going to happen like you think it's going to happen. You are likely to end up with a whole bunch of tools and not much Else to show for your effort. I have one knife coming out of mid tech production in April or May of this year and I am working on two more knives in mid tech production right now. You have absolutely no idea what you don't know. I agree with Stacy, you could likely have $10,000-$15,000 in your shop just to be able to make knives at the level required for a production run. If you are serious about making knives for production, you need to get with a production company. Larkin precision is a good company to look at. They have some great guys on their staff thatare very knowledgeable and can help you with every step of the of the production. I have another name of the company but I can't find it right this second, I'll look for it when I get home I'll try to post a back up here.
Look, I understand that you're very very excited about this opportunity. Don't blow an opportunity because you go into something with that without your eyes being all the way open.
Take for instance cost of production in relation to wholesale price in relation to retail price. Your retailer may want to make 200 points over the cost of your wholesale price are you even going to be able to make enough money making these one by one by hand 50 the time to be able to sell them to this fortune 500 company at a Wholesale price that they are going to be able to mark them up high enough to be able to make a profit. I'm telling you from experience that you are going to make zero to little money doing a production run this way.
It will cost you anywhere from $50-$80 to have a ready to go product made if you go the mid tech route. Notice I said will cost you. That's your cost. Now add your profit on top of that. Now add 100% or 200 points to that price. Is that a viable option? Is your Fortune 500 company going to be able to even sell your knife at that price?
Say you don't go the mid tech route. Now you are blanking, profiling, grinding the bevels, sending out for heat treat, finishing post heat treat, mounting handles, finishing handles, making sheets, packaging, and shipping. That should terrified of the living daylights out of you. You think that you have a good handle on the BB gun that you are holding that you are missing the huge cannon that you're staring down the barrel of.
It is little stuff that is going to sink you. Stuff you haven't even thought of yet. Stuff that I didn't think of. Maybe you have thought of that. Maybe I'm way off. However, I know there was a lot of stuff that I never even considered until I was months into working with a med tech manufacturer. Stuff like blade finish, Handle material sourcing, how to shape the handles, how to make everything repeatable. Stuff like that. Hell, even stuff like how to make the fasteners come out the exact same way every single knife.
I'm going to admit something and I don't know exactly how I even feel about it myself so everyone can judge me if they wish. My first mid tech knife is coming out of China. Yes I love American-made, however, I need to be able to make money on 300 pieces selling at wholesale. I can't make a knife for $80, wholesale it for $100, and it sell for $175-$200. There's no money in it. Read AG Russel's webpage about why he sent production overseas. That man is an upstanding American. However, he understood the financial restraints within the marketplace. Also, and this is the biggest reason by far, I chose to partner with a business person in China that knows the market, has already taken two or three knives to market within the United States and has sold them very well, and already knows the pitfalls to making production knives. I think that it was Henry Ford that said, "I don't need to know everything, I just need to know who to ask." Now, I don't think that's exactly what he said, but that's the jist of it. My Chinese guy find my blind spots when it comes to this round of knives, my wife is my emotional blind spot finder. She keeps me grounded and ask questions like, "is this going to make money, or are you getting emotionally involved and can see the bigger picture?". You need to find someone or several people to help you find your blind spots. This form is a great resource for that. One of the big reasons I didn't go ahead with my US made mid tech knives at this time is because I didn't have confidence in the design that I was going to put into the marketplace. My Chinese designer/manufacturer has been invaluable with the design work in the knife I am having manufactured there. I started the design, he finished the design. You have to have someone who knows the marketplace help you.
Find someone who has been where you want to go and ask them how they got there. Have them show you how they got there. I got lucky; a simple question turned into a business partnership spanning the globe. My partner is successful in the field that I have chosen. They say that businessman like risk. I don't think business people like risk. Business people like to mitigate as much risk as possible. I am not gambling. I am taking a well reasoned approach, and I am reasonably certain that I have mitigated as much risk as possible.
You know just as well as I do that business will chew you up and spit you out without a second glance. I love making knives. I love being in business even more. If I could make another little widget and make money I would do that, but I chose to make knives. The day that my mid tech production becomes unprofitable, I quit.
You are talking about spending thousands of dollars on equipment, thousands of dollars worth of man-hours in time, thousands of dollars in materials and consumables. I have an idea. Ask one of the makers on this forum if they would let you come to their shop for a day or two days or three days. Buy $100 worth of belts, $100 worth of steel, $100 worth of handle material, $30 worth of epoxy, $10 worth of handle fasteners, $50 worth of Kydex. Basically spend $1000 on a plane ticket and all the junk you need to make a few knives and see how well this will work. Do a trial run before you spend thousands of dollars in time and money on what could be, and likely is going to be a rabbit hole. Be realistic in your expectations. Listen to the people that are on this for him when they tell you that there is NO WAY IN HELL to make 50 knives that all look exactly the same at a high-level of quality after making 4 to 8 knives, even with a jig. Just getting the handle shapes the same from knife to knife is going to be a huge challenge.
Can you shoot me an email? I'd like to discuss a few things off forum with you.
No matter what you decide, it's your life, it's your money, it's your time. Everyone told the Wright brothers they couldn't fly. Who knows this might work out really really well. I wish you the absolute best of luck. Also, just in case it didn't come through since we are typing instead of talking, there is absolutely no sarcasm in that last statement. Complete genuine well wishing.
Let us know if we can help you in anyway. Shoot me an email, I have some questions.
Look, I understand that you're very very excited about this opportunity. Don't blow an opportunity because you go into something with that without your eyes being all the way open.
Take for instance cost of production in relation to wholesale price in relation to retail price. Your retailer may want to make 200 points over the cost of your wholesale price are you even going to be able to make enough money making these one by one by hand 50 the time to be able to sell them to this fortune 500 company at a Wholesale price that they are going to be able to mark them up high enough to be able to make a profit. I'm telling you from experience that you are going to make zero to little money doing a production run this way.
It will cost you anywhere from $50-$80 to have a ready to go product made if you go the mid tech route. Notice I said will cost you. That's your cost. Now add your profit on top of that. Now add 100% or 200 points to that price. Is that a viable option? Is your Fortune 500 company going to be able to even sell your knife at that price?
Say you don't go the mid tech route. Now you are blanking, profiling, grinding the bevels, sending out for heat treat, finishing post heat treat, mounting handles, finishing handles, making sheets, packaging, and shipping. That should terrified of the living daylights out of you. You think that you have a good handle on the BB gun that you are holding that you are missing the huge cannon that you're staring down the barrel of.
It is little stuff that is going to sink you. Stuff you haven't even thought of yet. Stuff that I didn't think of. Maybe you have thought of that. Maybe I'm way off. However, I know there was a lot of stuff that I never even considered until I was months into working with a med tech manufacturer. Stuff like blade finish, Handle material sourcing, how to shape the handles, how to make everything repeatable. Stuff like that. Hell, even stuff like how to make the fasteners come out the exact same way every single knife.
I'm going to admit something and I don't know exactly how I even feel about it myself so everyone can judge me if they wish. My first mid tech knife is coming out of China. Yes I love American-made, however, I need to be able to make money on 300 pieces selling at wholesale. I can't make a knife for $80, wholesale it for $100, and it sell for $175-$200. There's no money in it. Read AG Russel's webpage about why he sent production overseas. That man is an upstanding American. However, he understood the financial restraints within the marketplace. Also, and this is the biggest reason by far, I chose to partner with a business person in China that knows the market, has already taken two or three knives to market within the United States and has sold them very well, and already knows the pitfalls to making production knives. I think that it was Henry Ford that said, "I don't need to know everything, I just need to know who to ask." Now, I don't think that's exactly what he said, but that's the jist of it. My Chinese guy find my blind spots when it comes to this round of knives, my wife is my emotional blind spot finder. She keeps me grounded and ask questions like, "is this going to make money, or are you getting emotionally involved and can see the bigger picture?". You need to find someone or several people to help you find your blind spots. This form is a great resource for that. One of the big reasons I didn't go ahead with my US made mid tech knives at this time is because I didn't have confidence in the design that I was going to put into the marketplace. My Chinese designer/manufacturer has been invaluable with the design work in the knife I am having manufactured there. I started the design, he finished the design. You have to have someone who knows the marketplace help you.
Find someone who has been where you want to go and ask them how they got there. Have them show you how they got there. I got lucky; a simple question turned into a business partnership spanning the globe. My partner is successful in the field that I have chosen. They say that businessman like risk. I don't think business people like risk. Business people like to mitigate as much risk as possible. I am not gambling. I am taking a well reasoned approach, and I am reasonably certain that I have mitigated as much risk as possible.
You know just as well as I do that business will chew you up and spit you out without a second glance. I love making knives. I love being in business even more. If I could make another little widget and make money I would do that, but I chose to make knives. The day that my mid tech production becomes unprofitable, I quit.
You are talking about spending thousands of dollars on equipment, thousands of dollars worth of man-hours in time, thousands of dollars in materials and consumables. I have an idea. Ask one of the makers on this forum if they would let you come to their shop for a day or two days or three days. Buy $100 worth of belts, $100 worth of steel, $100 worth of handle material, $30 worth of epoxy, $10 worth of handle fasteners, $50 worth of Kydex. Basically spend $1000 on a plane ticket and all the junk you need to make a few knives and see how well this will work. Do a trial run before you spend thousands of dollars in time and money on what could be, and likely is going to be a rabbit hole. Be realistic in your expectations. Listen to the people that are on this for him when they tell you that there is NO WAY IN HELL to make 50 knives that all look exactly the same at a high-level of quality after making 4 to 8 knives, even with a jig. Just getting the handle shapes the same from knife to knife is going to be a huge challenge.
Can you shoot me an email? I'd like to discuss a few things off forum with you.
No matter what you decide, it's your life, it's your money, it's your time. Everyone told the Wright brothers they couldn't fly. Who knows this might work out really really well. I wish you the absolute best of luck. Also, just in case it didn't come through since we are typing instead of talking, there is absolutely no sarcasm in that last statement. Complete genuine well wishing.
Let us know if we can help you in anyway. Shoot me an email, I have some questions.
Brian.Evans
Registered Member
- Joined
- Aug 20, 2011
- Messages
- 3,267
Okay, I just reread my last response. I'm using the dictation function on my phone. Apparently it really sucks. Just read what you think I meant, not what it says in some places. It looks like I can barely type. I promise I'm a lot more articulate in person.
- Joined
- Nov 25, 2007
- Messages
- 340
+1 on everything Stacy said, read whatever he said twice!
I am on my 20th knife or so, and am still not completely happy with my work. You won't understand this level of self scrutiny until you start making them. As you learn more about this craft, and start comparing your work to the accomplished makers, it is quite humbling, and you will in turn raise the bar for yourself.
I have recently changed my entire outlook on this knife biz. Trying to make money at this craft tends to take the fun out of it, I am going to still try, because it is in my nature to not give up. I make knives because I love making knives. I am simply not going to dwell on making money at it. For now I am going to try and perfect my skills, so when I do put forth my knives, I can be 100% confident and proud.
As far as budget goes- whatever you figured, double or triple it. I went through my first set of belts rather quickly. Then you have things like scrap steel for ideas, drill bits and then oversized metric drill bits (usually twice as much), files, clamps, epoxies, sharpening equipment, a second set of etching stencils (because you won't be happy with the first design), shipping fees on all this little stuff really starts to add up, I my case I had to add in an oven, quenchents, quench tank, RC tester (luckily acquired in trade for couple knives), steel, more steel, dobbers, alcohol, dyes, rags, rubber gloves, rags, the list goes on and doesn't even touch on leather equipment if you're gonna make your own sheaths. Do you know the kydex is most likely going to scratch your blades??
Stabilized woods- I am with the others on this. I was insistent upon using stabilized woods until I went into the local exotic wood place and he said "why would you want to do that? Do you know how many knives were made over the past 100 years without stab woods." So I try to choose a good species and seal it well with something like tru oil to keep the moisture out. The handles are sealed from the back with epoxy and the outside with tru oil, most knives will be okay like this as long as you don't leave them out in the rain overnight then throw them in the freezer. I enjoy playing with knives so if a customer does acquire a crack in the handle I will have no problem replacing it. It will give me a chance to see my knife again, learn why it cracked, and catch up with my customer.
Good luck on your venture either way
I am on my 20th knife or so, and am still not completely happy with my work. You won't understand this level of self scrutiny until you start making them. As you learn more about this craft, and start comparing your work to the accomplished makers, it is quite humbling, and you will in turn raise the bar for yourself.
I have recently changed my entire outlook on this knife biz. Trying to make money at this craft tends to take the fun out of it, I am going to still try, because it is in my nature to not give up. I make knives because I love making knives. I am simply not going to dwell on making money at it. For now I am going to try and perfect my skills, so when I do put forth my knives, I can be 100% confident and proud.
As far as budget goes- whatever you figured, double or triple it. I went through my first set of belts rather quickly. Then you have things like scrap steel for ideas, drill bits and then oversized metric drill bits (usually twice as much), files, clamps, epoxies, sharpening equipment, a second set of etching stencils (because you won't be happy with the first design), shipping fees on all this little stuff really starts to add up, I my case I had to add in an oven, quenchents, quench tank, RC tester (luckily acquired in trade for couple knives), steel, more steel, dobbers, alcohol, dyes, rags, rubber gloves, rags, the list goes on and doesn't even touch on leather equipment if you're gonna make your own sheaths. Do you know the kydex is most likely going to scratch your blades??
Stabilized woods- I am with the others on this. I was insistent upon using stabilized woods until I went into the local exotic wood place and he said "why would you want to do that? Do you know how many knives were made over the past 100 years without stab woods." So I try to choose a good species and seal it well with something like tru oil to keep the moisture out. The handles are sealed from the back with epoxy and the outside with tru oil, most knives will be okay like this as long as you don't leave them out in the rain overnight then throw them in the freezer. I enjoy playing with knives so if a customer does acquire a crack in the handle I will have no problem replacing it. It will give me a chance to see my knife again, learn why it cracked, and catch up with my customer.
Good luck on your venture either way
- Status