Knife Making Startup Costs....Need Input/Help

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Brian.Evans said:
Okay, I just reread my last response. I'm using the dictation function on my phone. Apparently it really sucks. Just read what you think I meant, not what it says in some places. It looks like I can barely type. I promise I'm a lot more articulate in person.
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Knowing that, that It actually worked pretty well

Thanks for the info.

I can't see anything I disagree with.
 
Heck, let 'er rip. Post the results.

Add in an assortment of single and double cut files. Flats and rounds. An assortment of small files as well. You might be surprised the things you will need them for.
 
Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith said:
You are an engineered wood specialist and CAD designer - Would you want to live in a house designed by a fellow who knew nothing about CAD and then built 6-8 joists before he built your dream house? ( and laminated all the joists/beams himself with hobby equipment in his garage)

I would think a person with your experience would see the flaw in your plan. 6-8 knives can be the number of knives that it takes some people to get their first acceptable knife...not a delivery ready commercial product. Most folks would say that 50-100 knives ( made one at a time, not in a batch) would be what was needed to learn the skills to make a presentable product for single knife sales.

There is a lot left off your list if you plan on making commercial grade knives......a lot! To be frank, the prices you show are ones for hobby grade use, not production use. I would expect one who plans on making 50 knife batches would spent $10K at the start-up of a good shop, and spend another $10K over the next few years of knifemaking. Many of us have $50K in our shops and still don't have everything we want or need. Many with $50K in their shops would run away from a 50 knife commercial order from a "Fortune 500" company. That level of skill takes years of experience.

I would also suggest that you forget the stabilizing equipment, as it has no real use or advantage to a novice. Any stabilizing equipment and supplies that cost $300 is just some sort of woodturning hobby stuff....not the same as the stabilizing done for knife handle material. Same word, different definitions.

FYI,
The forum rules don't allow registered users to discuss selling in the forums. Since your discussion is pretty much wishful thinking, I'll let it slide, but lets concentrate on the knifemaking discussion not the dream of making and selling a 50 knife lot to a fortune 500 company.


If you are set on trying this, start with posting your design here and letting the fellows critique the drawing and your build plan. Much that goes in a CAD or sketch doesn't translate well into a finished and workable knife. Just be aware that it will take a year of hard practice and many failed knives to get ready to build that order.
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No but people pay big bucks every single day to architects who have had years of schooling but never lifted a hammer a day in his/her life. The 6-8 knives isn't set in stone, it might be 15-25+ knives. A lot that has been left off my list is stuff that i already have from years of accumulation in my shop. Also keep in mind that this company wanting to buy my knives isn't selling them once they receive them, they're going to be given out to their customers. I have taken the stabilizing equipment comments in and have researched outsourcing that as well and it will probably be cheaper to outsource the wood i will be using. And i have posted my design on here and started out with a basic design and fine tuned it after getting lots of feedback to the point of where i am satisfied with the design.
 
Maelstrom78 said:
Heck, let 'er rip. Post the results.

Add in an assortment of single and double cut files. Flats and rounds. An assortment of small files as well. You might be surprised the things you will need them for.
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i already have a large assortment of large, small, flat, round, half round etc files
 
Speaking as someone who is a layman who likes to make stuff, but is not as advanced as you are being a furniture designer, CAD expert etc. my only concern would be that (again from a layman's perspective) most of the well regarded knife makers I have seen discuss their evolution as craftsmen and artists worked at it hard over years to get to the point they felt their expertise and designs were ready for even small scale mass production. There are a thousand details in all this you learn only from hands on experience. You are coming at it from an entirely different perspective where your conceptual design expertise has won you a contract and now you have to make it happen without any real world, hands on knife making skills.

I am not a knife maker, but I have fair amount of experience dealing with various business startups. Personally I think you are setting yourself up for a boondoggle. A 50 piece contract for a customer expecting (assumedly) a fairly high level of fit, finish and craftsmanship from a man who has never made a knife (much less this particular contracted knife) from start to finish means you have a huge, high risk learning curve and you are under the gun time wise. One mistake in specing and sourcing these materials or making incorrect assumptions about assembly procedures or timelines and you're screwed.

IMO you would be far better off stepping back from this as the assembler/manufacturer and working with an existing small scale production knife maker who has room in his schedule for the business. Your profit as the designer will be smaller but at least the job has a reasonable chance of getting done and will allow you to move to the next contract with a satisfied customer and solid reference behind you. Jumping into the deep end with limited experience and your dreams to guide you is exciting, but precision manufacturing is not one of the industries where this strategy tends to work well.
 
I know less about making knives than anyone who has already replied. But, I must say, you have the confidence.

My father and I looked into a knife making project - but to tell the truth, it is way harder, more dangerous, and far dirtier than you might imagine.

You have answered the tough questions, but now to do the work. I wish you the best of skill.

Eric
 
snippy said:
I know less about making knives than anyone who has already replied. But, I must say, you have the confidence.

My father and I looked into a knife making project - but to tell the truth, it is way harder, more dangerous, and far dirtier than you might imagine.

You have answered the tough questions, but now to do the work. I wish you the best of skill.

Eric
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thanks man, appreciate it!!!
 
Well the first thing missing from your list is Band-Aids.;)

The other thing is Time and how are your attaching the handles? Mechanical, Epoxy or both?

First, let me say I'm not a Nay sayer. The world is fun of Puck Tarts that don't have the courage to do much in life so they will torpedo others that have the big ones to try and be willing to fail again and again until they succeed.

I started in 96 and while the knife making industry has sure changed and there are so many places to out source different parts of the process the one thing that hasn't changed is if you are going to grind out 50 knives and have never ground out a blade you are in for a big learning curve. You can have all of the jigs in the world. They don't grind the knife for you and you have to learn how to use them properly for each step you are doing.

Also you will have the handles to attach, pins, mechanical's, epoxy and finishing said handles and etching your logo plus a few things I have forgotten since I have to go get in my own shop real soon.

Knife making is some of the dirtiest, hottest work on the planet and while your wood working will help, steel is another animal. All makers and all grinding belts don't get along. The belts I use may not be the ones you can get the best results with. There are many little things like this to work out
So are you just planning on doing these 50 promotional knives and that's it? If so, I suggest you look into out sourcing the WHOLE batch of 50.

I wish you luck! Go get 'em
 
I like your design and your enthusiasm. It seems every knifemaker has a different journey but, in all those journeys there are some constants. One of those constants is grinding bevels is always harder than you think. There is skill, art, finesse, muscle memory and talent involved in grinding bevels and it is not a task to be taken lightly. When I was getting started, I asked this forum how many blades does it generally take to get decent at grinding; the answer was about fifty. I am now somewhere around sixty and I think the consensus was pretty close. I am just now getting to where I can turn out a plunge that is what I've had in mind all along. Honestly, I think it will take over a hundred blades before I have a real command of grinding. This is with a lifetime of metal fabrication and machining experience.

My recommendation is, if you are interested in doing this for the money, farm everything out and just assemble the knives yourself. You can focus on design and marketing and let experts take care of everything that requires hard-won skills. If you want to learn how to make knives and produce a nice product yourself, go sign up for Johnny Stouts beginning knifemaking class ( http://stoutknives.com/ )and spend four days answering all these questions for yourself. You will know exactly what tools you need and will have the basic skills to start making some quality knives. Yes, it is an expensive class and it is worth every penny if you are going to be serious about knifemaking!

Bob
 
For what it's worth it took me about 12 knives using my grinding jig before I got results I deemed acceptable, and the battle with that is still ongoing. I now finish grind all my blades freehand because I've found I'm less likely to undercut the plunge going freehand than I am when finishing on the grinding jig.

I see both the for and against sides of this and I think that really how it's going to turn out just depends on you. I was selling knives of reasonably high quality pretty soon after I got started, but I'd also had a LOT of experience making things with my hands and some past experience making knives. If you're new to hand skills then it's going to be a tough journey regardless of your design skills. With that said I think that provided you keep the scope limited it's definitely possible.

But make sure you do yourself a favour here: manage the expectations with your client proactively and sensibly. Don't give them a hard delivery date, because you WILL miss it. Make sure that you're open about what you're working through so they are understanding when you miss the deadline, because it will happen. There's just too many unknowns at this point to make reasonable estimates in terms of timelines.

Do make sure that you don't underestimate the time involved in all this. I have my blanks cut on a waterjet, I have jigs and templates out the waazoo and it still takes me about 8-10 hours per knife (for a hand satin finished knife). For your batch of 50 knives that's 400-500 hours and I would anticipate that the first 10-15 'learner' blades will take you roughly the same amount of time again. So let's say conservatively you're going to spend 800 hours making that batch of 50 knives. That works out to be 5 MONTHS of 40 hours weeks....

Don't kid yourself and say "well I'll works 60 hour weeks then", sure some people do it, but committing to 60 hour weeks, every week for the next 4 months is a serious endeavour and also a recipe for burn-out and unhappiness.

It's also worth noting that your one batch of 50 knives will be more knives than I have made in total, over the course of 2 years or so. Granted I only make knives part time but that should help put some perspective on this.

In terms of materials, I'm not sure it's worthwhile using CPMS30V for this, the client doesn't sound demanding in terms of blade materials and S30V will eat belts. I would recommend looking at CPM154 instead. Great edge holding along with easy grinding and finishing. If you buy it in a full sheet straight from Niagara Specialty Metals then you can get better pricing too. Be aware that their usual finish is 'timesaver grind' which is quite a coarse belt finish. There will be a bunch of work involved with finishing the flats of the blade/tang unless you opt to have them cut your full sheet into sections and surface grind them.

As to your tool list:
1) Spend more money on a drill press, that $200 craftsman probably won't be great and it's a vital tool
2) I don't see any tools for making sheaths. You'll need a bunch of stuff regardless of whether you decide to go leather or kydex (also don't underestimate the time involved with learning sheath making)
3) You'll need a larger work-rest for the grinder if you plan to use my grinding jig

Also be aware that blades blanked out on the waterjet will still need a bunch of edge grinding done. Any pin holes for instance will likely be off-size because of the tabs left inside the holes. If you can go with a more advanced waterjet company that can do spot-piercing to mark the pin holes so you can drill them accurately that would be better. Make sure to leave around 0.010" or so on all external edges so you have a finishing allowance.

You could look into HD plasma or laser as alternatives to the waterjet if you want tighter tolerances on your blanks.

It's an interesting discussion regardless as most people do not approach knifemaking as a business. It can be done, it just requires a different approach than knifemaking as a hobby.
 
Stacy's point about the architect holds true. You say people pay big bucks to an architect who has never raised a hammer. Nobody is paying them those big bucks to raise a hammer. They are paying them to do exactly what they are trained to do. It doesn't matter if they CAN pound a nail, because they are not attempting to. It's like if a formula one driver gets sick, they don't just stick a mechanic in the car and win races. I wish you the best but see some hard learned lessons and stumbles in the future of this plan.
 
Adding to my previous comments. You seem to be like myself when I was younger. I can do anything I set my mind to. I've found my only limitations are time and money.

I have no doubt you can do it, I just have doubts that you can do it in a timely manner and at a reasonable cost.

As far as your tool list, it depends on how fast you want to produce and how much you're willing to spend. If I was doing production runs, I'd want a milling machine, metal and wood cutting band saws, surface grinder and multiple 2x72 grinders, so as to not have to change set ups. Dust collection along with all the safety gear required would be a big concern. Number one on my list would be about 600- 800 sq. ft. of shop space. Developing a tool list is part of the learning curve. Only you know what you need based on your knife making experience, goals and what you can afford.

My advise to you at this point would be to subcontract all the processes of this first order out and then gradually set up a shop to do prototypes of future designs.

Whatever approach you choose, I truly do wish you good luck and please keep us posted on your progress.
 
i will definitely keep everyone posted of the progress of this endeavor, whether it's on here or on knifedogs.....
 
madupree said:
far more complicated and the designs that had a lot more features to account for than grinding a 2-3 degree angle on a piece of steel held with a jig, at a precise and repeatable angle,with carbide stops that prevent me from grinding beyond a certain point, using a router to cut the knife handles and making a sheath in a press form, if I'm missing something, let me know
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Do you have access to a CNC router? I'd like to hear more about your plans to cut the scales with a router. How do you plan on shaping them? How do you plan on finishing them?

How will you make sure your blades and the inside face of your scales are perfectly flat?

How do you plan to finish out that choil? A small wheel won't fit into it. A water jet or laser cut surface will be unacceptable. A really well machined profile might look okay. In my shop, that would have to be finished out completely by hand.

A blade bevel isn't a flat plane. Learning how to achieve optimal edge geometry and get it with clean, symmetrical bevels is something that takes practice.



It may seem like a whole bunch of debbie downers here, but folks are trying to save you from a lot of heartache due to biting off more than can be chewed. Even for a very well seasoned knife maker, a run of 50 would be a daunting...pretty much overwhelming task. The idea of committing to that before making a single knife makes my stomach churn.

An ounce of application is worth 100 pounds of theory...



However---- I'm also a firm believer that if someone wants something bad enough, they can usually find a way to make it happen. But dreamers still need to be realistic. If a guy says he wants to be a professional musician, and he's willing to work his fingers to the bone to make it a reality, then that's a big, but realistic dream. If a guy says, "I want to be a professional musician, I bought a guitar, an amp, some sheet music... Now all I have to do is learn to play the guitar and I'll be raking in contracts. It will probably take me a week or two to learn to play, but then I'll be golden." Well, that's a dream floating up in the clouds with almost zero chance of coming down to reality.




But maybe you were born with the inherit skills required and a love for monotonous production work. If that's the case, then you're golden on this. :)
 
NickWheeler said:
Do you have access to a CNC router? I'd like to hear more about your plans to cut the scales with a router. How do you plan on shaping them? How do you plan on finishing them?

How will you make sure your blades and the inside face of your scales are perfectly flat?

How do you plan to finish out that choil? A small wheel won't fit into it. A water jet or laser cut surface will be unacceptable. A really well machined profile might look okay. In my shop, that would have to be finished out completely by hand.

A blade bevel isn't a flat plane. Learning how to achieve optimal edge geometry and get it with clean, symmetrical bevels is something that takes practice.



It may seem like a whole bunch of debbie downers here, but folks are trying to save you from a lot of heartache due to biting off more than can be chewed. Even for a very well seasoned knife maker, a run of 50 would be a daunting...pretty much overwhelming task. The idea of committing to that before making a single knife makes my stomach churn.

An ounce of application is worth 100 pounds of theory...



However---- I'm also a firm believer that if someone wants something bad enough, they can usually find a way to make it happen. But dreamers still need to be realistic. If a guy says he wants to be a professional musician, and he's willing to work his fingers to the bone to make it a reality, then that's a big, but realistic dream. If a guy says, "I want to be a professional musician, I bought a guitar, an amp, some sheet music... Now all I have to do is learn to play the guitar and I'll be raking in contracts. It will probably take me a week or two to learn to play, but then I'll be golden." Well, that's a dream floating up in the clouds with almost zero chance of coming down to reality.




But maybe you were born with the inherit skills required and a love for monotonous production work. If that's the case, then you're golden on this. :)
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I cut out the template with a premade template using a guide bushing, then use a roundover bit. Finishing will be done by sealing them with a polyurethane most likely.the blanks will be cut out by wire edm not waterjet or laser and the choil will be finished out by hand. My blades will have a flat grind which from my understanding is 'flat' and your comparison of the the 'magician' you're talking as if the magician has never picked up a single musical instrument. Where as it might actually be a reality of one playing one instrument for half their life and deciding to play another instrument all while knowing the basic concept oof how to handle the instrument, just needin fine tuning in the end.
 
NickWheeler said:
Do you have access to a CNC router? I'd like to hear more about your plans to cut the scales with a router. How do you plan on shaping them? How do you plan on finishing them?

How will you make sure your blades and the inside face of your scales are perfectly flat?

How do you plan to finish out that choil? A small wheel won't fit into it. A water jet or laser cut surface will be unacceptable. A really well machined profile might look okay. In my shop, that would have to be finished out completely by hand.

A blade bevel isn't a flat plane. Learning how to achieve optimal edge geometry and get it with clean, symmetrical bevels is something that takes practice.



It may seem like a whole bunch of debbie downers here, but folks are trying to save you from a lot of heartache due to biting off more than can be chewed. Even for a very well seasoned knife maker, a run of 50 would be a daunting...pretty much overwhelming task. The idea of committing to that before making a single knife makes my stomach churn.

An ounce of application is worth 100 pounds of theory...



However---- I'm also a firm believer that if someone wants something bad enough, they can usually find a way to make it happen. But dreamers still need to be realistic. If a guy says he wants to be a professional musician, and he's willing to work his fingers to the bone to make it a reality, then that's a big, but realistic dream. If a guy says, "I want to be a professional musician, I bought a guitar, an amp, some sheet music... Now all I have to do is learn to play the guitar and I'll be raking in contracts. It will probably take me a week or two to learn to play, but then I'll be golden." Well, that's a dream floating up in the clouds with almost zero chance of coming down to reality.




But maybe you were born with the inherit skills required and a love for monotonous production work. If that's the case, then you're golden on this. :)
Click to expand...

I cut out the template with a premade template using a guide bushing, then use a roundover bit. Finishing will be done by sealing them with a polyurethane most likely.the blanks will be cut out by wire edm not waterjet or laser and the choil will be finished out by hand. My blades will have a flat grind which from my understanding is 'flat' and your comparison of the the 'magician' you're talking as if the magician has never picked up a single musical instrument. Where as it might actually be a reality of one playing one instrument for half their life and deciding to play another instrument all while knowing the basic concept oof how to handle the instrument, just needin fine tuning in the end.
 
madupree said:
Finishing will be done by sealing them with a polyurethane most likely.
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Your woodwork experience is showing!

the blanks will be cut out by wire edm not waterjet or laser and the choil will be finished out by hand.
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That profit margin is getting thinner by the minute

I think we can all quit it with the metaphors.
We've all said our piece and yeah we honestly dont know the aptitude of madupree. Lets just wait and see
 
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