Knifetests.com-whats YOUR opinion

[Gator97]

First, you are assuming that there are no lateral forces in machine tests - or that machines only exert the (much greater in magnitude) downwards force that actually does the cutting with both machine cuts and hand cuts.

No, I don't assume there are no lateral forces with the machines, but compared to humans they're a lot less pronounced.

Unless all sideways motion during the cut are eliminated, there will be some lateral forces with any cut, human or machine.

Depending on the machine that is possible, but impossible for humans. Also, the difference between those two(lateral forces) is what would make the key difference.

I would guess there is some play (or you could put some play) in the linkages of a CATRA machine that result in some sideways motion of the knife, ...You could easily introduce them with a machine.

Correct, however that isn't done. Also, catra and slicing in general is the easiest case. Chopping and heavy duty use is far more complicated and damaging to the edge. Which btw is the subject of the debate. It is a lot easier to make two similar slices than two similar chops, especially when you are working more than few minutes.

Second, you also assume that this lateral force is very important in how an edge dulls during cutting, even though it is very small compared to the cutting force.

Even the lateral force is small compared to vertical force, it is applied to the very thin strip of metal, and the force applied to the edge is multiplied, where effort force is lateral force applied by human and load force will be what the edge receives, fulcrum point being wherever the blade is in the medium.

My previous question was, has anyone ever done any tests or taken any pictures of edges to substantiate that this small lateral force is a major factor in the dulling of an edge from cutting?

Pictures yes, a lot. Measuring lateral force is beyond my ability for now. But I can guesstimate that it is a lot less compared to vertical.

Complete gallery - damaged edges on the kitchen(mainly) knives. That is a complete gallery, and lots of the photos are damaged by average users inthe kitchen.

Now specific ones, taken soon after cutting nothing more than vegetables on the end grain wood cutting board.

Aritsugu A-Type gyuto, ~60HRC, gokinko steel, which supposedly is similar to D3. ~150x.


Shigefusa gyuto, his proprietary "spicy steel" which is based on some Swedish steel. 64HRC. ~90x.


Sanetsu gyuto, ZDp-189 steel, 64-66HRC. ~100x.


Finally, Watanabe Nakiri, Aogami I steel, 63-65HRC.
This one doesn't have fractures, but mainly folding.


This is pretty much how all the above edges were before cutting anything. Since photos were taken to study/see the effects of cutting on the steel I didn't always keep "before" photos or take them, just an inspection with the same microscope used for those photos above.

It would just take simple observation of edges during cutting to show it is true, so it is curious why no one has done this, despite the contention being posted here over the years many times.

Well, it's not that trivial, at least taking magnified pix and sharpening clean edges. Anyway, all the above was caused by vegetables, harshest of them being carrots and broccoli stems. I was pretty surpriced to see microfractures on Aritsugu, which is just 60HRC, and Watanabe held up w/o chipping at 63-65HRC, obviously the steel is very important.

Adding any factors of unpredictability and unrepeatability to a test is something to be avoided,

Well, yes and no. if you are trying to model something that unavoidably has both, unpredictability ad unrepeatability then, why? It will give part of the picture, but not vrey realistic one.

 

[greater]

Page 14 way to go Noss

 

[philwar]

I think knifetests.com is essential reading/viewing material for the aspiring knife user/collector. It contains everything one needs to know to base a buying decision on.

*runs and hides*

 

[Guyon]

Page 14 way to go Noss

I would have said that TGHM really likes all attention, even the negative attention, but after that tirade against Broos, I think his feelings are hurt by someone actually objecting to his mission. Poor thing. Maybe he could videotape a counseling session and just get it all out of his system.

 

[Kiah]

I would have said that TGHM really likes all attention, even the negative attention, but after that tirade against Broos, I think his feelings are hurt by someone actually objecting to his mission. Poor thing. Maybe he could videotape a counseling session and just get it all out of his system.

Who Posted?

Guyon 51
...
noss4 1

 

[KEmSAT-Survival]

This thread is as hillarious as anything I've ever read in W & C.

Ever hear the old saying, "There is no such thing as bad press" ?

Like him or not...TGHM definitely does not fail to elicit a response.

14 pages worth.

 

[Guyon]

Who Posted?

Guyon 51
...
noss4 1

What can I say? There's some pleasure in spreading the truth.

Since I didn't storm out of BFC in a sulk and start my own forum, I have to do what I can here. :thumbup:

 

[Gator97]

What can I say? There's some pleasure in spreading the truth.

There might be some valid criticism in what you and others post, but most of it is hardly qualified as truth or anything constructive. Just personal attacks...
Based on the assumption that select few here understand better than the rest, what is good for knife community and what not.

 

[Guyon]

There might be some valid criticism in what you and others post, but most of it is hardly qualified as truth or anything constructive.

Hard to square those two parts. The criticism is either valid and true, or it's not.

 

[Guyon]

I think the website should be renamed to kniveabuse.com

They don't test knives. They abuse them until they break.

I don't care for them.

A voice of reason shines some light into the darkness!

 

[Gator97]

Hard to square those two parts. The criticism is either valid and true, or it's not.

Let me break it down for you Out of 50+ posts you made here, one or at best two, contained more or less valid points about knife testing.
The rest was your personal feelings against Noss, and had nothing to do with his testing methods, constructiveness or usefulness. Obviously, I don't believe that you, Phil and other "concerned citizens" are protecting the rest of the naive knife enthusiasts from evil Noss, and care about their knives more than they do.

 

[Guyon]

Thanks for the breakdown.

Since you're convinced TGHM is doing such wonders toward a better, smarter knife community, perhaps you could share what exactly it is he's teaching us.

 

[komondor]

Guyon,

I respectively suggest that you..............................

GET A LIFE.

 

[Guyon]

Guyon,

I respectively suggest that you..............................

GET A LIFE.

I hereby banish thee back to Political where the same might be said for you.

 

[Phil Elmore]

There might be some valid criticism in what you and others post, but most of it is hardly qualified as truth or anything constructive. Just personal attacks...

And what "Noss" posted was constructive and free of personal insults?

 

[Gator97]

Since you're convinced TGHM is doing such wonders toward a better, smarter knife community,

He does whatever he does. You can get enough of info based on those tests. They are not perfect, he doesn't claim them to be perfect either. he doesn't claim those tests to be world standard either.
Does he spend your tax money on those? No.
Does someone make you watch his videos or read his posts? No.
Does someone force you to accept his "mysterious" ratings you are so upset about? No.

He tests the knives and those in knife community who want, are getting their entertainment and/or test data from those tests. That's all. he doesn't claim to make people smarter nor does he claim he's smarter than others and tells them what to do.

BTW, I do realize I am not gonna outpost you, and I am not trying to
Considering that we both registered here in 2000 and since then I have around 2K posts and you are well over 20K posts. That doesn't mean you care 10 times more about knife community or you are 10 times smarter than other members of the said community, or that you contributed 10 times more to knife community.

And what "Noss" posted was constructive and free of personal insults?

Phil,
a) I didn't comment on Noss posts, and again 50:1 ratio is quite clear... I suspect in 1 post he couldn't outmatch...
b) What Noss does/did doesn't really justify those who take high moral ground and go on about how he is destroying knife community. Also, given the amount name calling, pointless or false accusations and insults he got, in this thread and in the past, why is it that surprising he'd be returning some of it? Although, in this thread he posted once and that wasn't personal insult?

 

[Karda]

 

[Guyon]

He does whatever he does. You can get enough of info based on those tests. They are not perfect, he doesn't claim them to be perfect either. he doesn't claim those tests to be world standard either.
Does he spend your tax money on those? No.
Does someone make you watch his videos or read his posts? No.
Does someone force you to accept his "mysterious" ratings you are so upset about? No.

He tests the knives and those in knife community who want, are getting their entertainment and/or test data from those tests. That's all. he doesn't claim to make people smarter nor does he claim he's smarter than others and tells them what to do.

BTW, I do realize I am not gonna outpost you, and I am not trying to
Considering that we both registered here in 2000 and since then I have around 2K posts and you are well over 20K posts. That doesn't mean you care 10 times more about knife community or you are 10 times smarter than other members of the said community, or that you contributed 10 times more to knife community.

A fascinating expenditure of time and energy and some critical mathematics to boot. Obviously, you have an identity investment in TGHM's stunts that you haven't quite worked out yet.

Look, all I'm saying is that the guy performs dumb stunts and is dumbing down the larger knife-using community as a result. What's so hard to accept about such a statement?

 

[Guyon]

Although, in this thread he posted once and that wasn't personal insult

Sure it was. He implied that I wear panties. Though satin is nice, I much prefer going commando.

 

[theonew]

I don't like these tests because they don't include any anvil slapping ...

T1mpani,

Very close to what happened. . . I met Tim Zowada at the 1983 or '84 Blade Show. . . Afterwards, he flew down to my shop and we spent the day testing different steels. . . I used multiple air-quenched tool steels and assorted stainless steels and he used damascus and oil hardening grades. I told him how wicked tough my D-2 was in a 10 1/2 blade and he calmly said, "Then anvil slap it!" He then explained what this meant. . . I did it, and shrapnel flew everywhere, including a nice chunk that got caught in the ceiling.

Having survived this embarassing test, I immediately gave up using D-2 for anything over 5" in blade length.

D-2 is a killer cutter and slicer and can be very difficult to beat in that arena, but as a long bladed chopper that may need to sustain heavy side impacts or heavy vibrations like those imparted when throwing at trees and what not, there are many, many much better choices.

Let's Drink! :thumbup:

Jerry


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