Knifetests.com-whats YOUR opinion

[Guyon]

I already explained to you that a) "express opinion" on public forum absolutely doesn't mean calling another person an idiot.

Still waiting for those links...

Would Gator97 perhaps like to rescind his earlier statement?

 

[Gator97]

I'd like to see some links to posts where I've called anyone (a) a thief, (b) a fraud, (c) an idiot.

Tsk tsk. You see guyon, you post so much that you forget what you say. And on the side not, this also tells how little value you put in your own words..

While the tests may be idiotic, I don't believe I've gone so far as to call anyone an idiot, even TGHM himself.

Basically you honestly believe that consistently doing idiotic things is normal human behavior.

How about some links or an apology, Gator97?

You got links. And if I post the links, you what, apologize? And guyon, I also remember your other promises, such as if you were caught on lies you'd retract your statement, and other stuff, the very first one, about "last word" isn't even worth mentioning, you're not the person who can stop posting in any thread..

So, back to your deeds - Post 557 by Guyon:
Specifically:

However, I and others here at Bladeforums have every right to complain when idiots regularly invade BFC with their fanboy antics and copycat destruction tests.

It is more than obvious from the message who are you calling an idiot, btw, more than one person.

Still waiting for those links...

Would Gator97 perhaps like to rescind his earlier statement?

a) You got the links;
b) Absolutely not like to rescind anything;
c) interesting what's your excuse now - There was no specific "this person is an idiot" post?

 

[Guyon]

Guilty as charged! My memory must be slipping from the verbal beatdown to which I've been subjected.

Well, I'll go back and edit that post, Gator97. Thank you for calling it to my attention. :thumbup:

Okay, here you go...

However, I and others here at Bladeforums have every right to complain when the sorely misinformed regularly invade BFC with their fanboy antics and copycat destruction tests.

If Gator97 will point out any more of my slips, I will gladly edit those as well.

.

 

[Gator97]

My memory must be slipping from the verbal beatdown to which I've been subjected.

Hmm, ok. May be you should excuse Noss too then, considering how much verbal abuse he was subjected to, from a lot more people. Especially that in this thread, your opponents were quite strict about terminology used.

 

[Guyon]

"However, I and others here at Bladeforums have every right to complain when idiots regularly invade BFC with their fanboy antics and copycat destruction tests."

In my own defense, however, that original, unedited version was intentionally cast as a conditional statement. If, however, people choose to place themselves into the conditional premise, well that's hardly my fault.

Condition:
If/When idiots invade BFC with their fanboy antics and copycat destruction tests...

Consequent:
..then I and others here at BFC have the right to complain.

It's a simple logical relationship really.

 

[Gator97]

You can't say I didn't anticipate that. Thanks for answering my:
c) interesting what's your excuse now - There was no specific "this person is an idiot" post?


The rest is just your verbal games. There was no if in the context you posted. You clearly referred to the events that already happened and your reaction to that.

No need to insult my intelligence ok

 

[Guyon]

"I'll give you a hundred dollars when pigs fly."

No if in that statement either.

Either way, it means I'm not going to see my $100.

 

[Guyon]

I want to thank Gator97 for his devout attention to the limits of expression in this thread. He has clearly shown me that certain opinions (for instance, that noss4 copycat destructions are idiotic) are clearly off-limits and should be repressed. In fact, Gator97's policing of my own posts has gotten me to do some deep soul searching and question the error of my ways. In the future, I will do my best to use terminology like "methodologically challenged," "invariably variable," and "noss4-American" when I challenge the merit of these video-taped "exhibitions of strength."

 

[Gator97]

Guilty as charged!.

So, after admitting wrongdoing, you post 3 more times(so far) to justify that, make it right, etc. It would've been a lot easier if you never said the above. So much for the promises of rescind. Not that someone would believe you, but still.
At least, clearly, you can't claim "you have no problems admitting when you're wrong".

He has clearly shown me that certain opinions (for instance, that noss4 copycat destructions are idiotic) are clearly off-limits and should be repressed.

This is obviously a deliberate lie, false accusation and lame attempt to take a stab at the opponent for your own deeds. Let's clarify again, I stated multiple timed that I stand against repressing any opinions (no matter how idiotic they may see to you or others) as long as it's done in a normal manner, which let me repeat personally for you, doesn't include namecalling and insults.

In fact, Gator97's policing of my own posts has

I wasn't really policing, apparently, I remember better what you post and what not.

gotten me to do some deep soul searching and question the error of my ways.

Sadly it was all in vain, as you understood nothing.

The rest of your post, well what are you trying to do? Mock all the people who try not to use bad words in the posts? You're cool because you can call someone an idiot or others work idiotic? That feels cool when you're in 3rd grade, or 5th...
After all, forum policy is pretty clear about what can be posted in public forums, and again, there is W&C for you to vent.

 

[Guyon]

Is Gator97 posing his questions as an objective observer or as a noss4-American?

 

[Guyon]

So much for the promises of rescind.

Hmmm... must have missed this. I edited the post out of my own good will to comply with Gator97's Designated Usage Parameters regarding language. And thanks to TNYD for such a useful euphemism! :thumbup:

Let's clarify again, I stated multiple timed that I stand against repressing any opinions (no matter how idiotic they may see to you or others) as long as it's done in a normal manner, which let me repeat personally for you, doesn't include namecalling and insults.

So it is okay to opine that copycat tests--heck, even the original tests--are less-than-intelligent? Does that diction pass the sniff test?

I wasn't really policing, apparently, I remember better what you post and what not.

I appreciate the clarification here. I'm impressed that Gator97 remembered one post out of 700+ in this thread. I contend unambiguously that Gator97 is more like Einstein than noss4.

Sadly it was all in vain, as you understood nothing.

Again, I'm glad to see how Gator97 can speak with such concrete assuredness on what people understand and do not understand.

 

[Kbrasmodeler]

Hey, guys, maybe we could end the pissing contest, and get this thread back on track?

I never looked at Knifetests.com, until I read some of this thread. I find it amusing, no more. I agree that there is no quantifiable data available from these tests, so the results appear to be subjective. Of course, it is cool to know that I would have a hard time killing a Battle Mistress! However, I feel no need to "expose" Noss4 as a "fraud", or get behind him as a "fanboy". He does what he enjoys, and apparently has a lot more disposable income than I do!

Are his tests repeatable? Probably not. Does that really matter? I don't know. I do know that most knives were not designed to be hit with hammers, and I have never seen them advertised as being able to withstand such. So, really, he is pushing knives beyond what I consider "normal use" parameters.

I can't see the comparison with crash testing cars. That is testing them in a situation that is not only forseeable, but happens a lot, and which requires predictable results. Cars are designed with this in mind. Beating a knife on the spine with a sledge is not something I foresee myself doing, nor will I try to cut through a metal pipe with any of my knives. Knives are not, as far as I know, designed with this in mind. At least the ones I forge are not.

So, some newbies could be mislead by looking at his tests, but it is not my job to "save" them. It is up to each of us to decide what is important to us when we buy a tool. I choose not to use Knifetests.com in my criteria, for the above reasons. If you want to use them, go for it. Just don't complain to me when your Fallkniven A-1 turns out to be a great knife.

 

[Guyon]

Hey, guys, maybe we could end the pissing contest, and get this thread back on track?

That sounds fair to me...

Ya know Broos I can understand your insistence on the supremacy of tightly controlled scientific testing, though as Mr. Glesser pointed out, it doesn't always translate into "real world" results when human or other imprecise factors are added. Just the simple notion that lab testing isn't always a perfect indicator of performance in the hands of people, implies that both are necessary to get an accurate assessment. Almost every day on Bladeforums we see people use the word test to describe less than scientifically controlled testing, heck I've seen some threads with the word test in their title that are nothing more than pictures of various people chopping on trees One common test that is referenced is how many deer I was able to process before my knife went dull. Yep, that's accurate But people who share these findings aren't usually jumped on for pushing inaccurate conclusions upon unsuspecting and gullible members, even when they use it in a comparative way. Why is that?

In the absence of a controlled lab environment, I don't see what is all that bad about using task specific goals as measurement guidelines. Hammer knife through wood, hammer knife through cinder block, stab tip in metal. It is to a large degree quite repeatable. Noss could easily add precision to his tests, e.g. make sure he is using the same materials for each test, my sure the temperature in the workshop is the same. Doing this would be beneficial IMO. What I don't understand in your position is why does it have to be all or nothing? Before the scientific method was firmly established and math developed to model the world and tools built to accurately measure forces, man was still learning and improving.

As far as what I've learned from these tests, well, I have more "experience" than I did before regarding the behavior of various production knives used in extreme ways. Is all the information 100% accurate, nope, it never could be, even with scientific testing, inaccuracies and false conclusions are always a possibility. So let's start another thread here and try to come up with some more scientific approaches to A) defining knife toughness and B) implementing a scientific test for it. Whaddya say?

I've got to throw theonew a bone here. (Get it? Bone? Dog avatar? Oh nevermind.) His was a conciliatory post in many ways, and it was a smart one.

I've long thought that TGHM could have done things better from the get-go. A lot of the negativity here stems from his own adolescent-like proceedings as he began destroying knives, video-taping the results, and garnering some attention. I don't need to rehash it all; the threads are there. More on point, I recognize the difficulty of scientific testing by an individual with limited resources. But even if noss4 doesn't claim to do anything scientific, we see him making very suggestive cross comparisons. As I've contended all along, his standards are simply lacking.

My suggestions for improvement are as follows. Do I think noss4 would follow them? Of course not. He's a showman more than anything. But if someone else were to start "tests" that subjectively try to get at some sense of toughness (rather than "measure" of toughness), here are some possibilities.

1) Get rid of "testing" and knife "tests." The term polarizes, and you're blind if you don't see how, in this very thread, that simple linguistic choice has an effect. Admit you're doing very subjective reviews, and even explain to an audience all the factors that make the performances subjective. In other words, offer up some reflective disclosure beyond something like "This is what I do. It stands for itself." This includes discussions/reflections that consider qualities like Rockwell, grain structure, stress risers, etc.

2) Get rid of the comparative ratings. They're subjective, and they simply serve to inflame, especially when somebody's revered knife brand only receives two Rotating Swords of Doom. Since the knives have not been subjected to the same standards, any such comparisons appear arbitrary at best.

3) If you insist on doing some kind of comparative report, then at least make some effort to do the exact same things to knives across the board. Same number of chops, same number of stabs, same number of hammer blows, and at least try to use similar force. There might be a clearly defined heuristic that guides every single review you do.

4) It would be interesting if you could practice blows, measure their force, and see if you're at least swinging a hammer with roughly the same force at a given time. We talk about accuracy in rifles, and of course, there's an element of human performance there too. But at least we try to put something on paper (groups) that gives us some indication of the combined ability of a shooter and a gun. noss4 has no such indicators.

That's just a start. theonew's notions about temperature strike me as a reasonable consideration as well.

Edited to add: The point about materials is a good one too. While wood is never going to be exactly the same, there's a big difference between a gardening post that's been sitting in your back yard for a year and a nice, soft 2x4 from Home Despot.

.

 

[Guyon]

Oops... double tap.

It was an accident. I swear.

Anyway, I'll use this space to thank Kbrasmodeler for a very thoughtful post. :thumbup:

 

[Kbrasmodeler]

I'll use this space to thank Kbrasmodeler for a very thoughtful post. :thumbup:

You're just saying that 'cause you know I can piss farther.

 

[Guyon]

You're just saying that 'cause you know I can piss farther.

I had a picture to post, but as I've been reminded, this isn't W&C.

 

[Joshua J.]

Oops... double tap.

It was an accident. I swear.

Anyway, I'll use this space to thank Kbrasmodeler for a very thoughtful post. :thumbup:

Is there anyone on the whole of Bladeforums with a higher post count.
Guyon, are you actually one of those people who's consciousness has been absorbed by the internet?
Can you tell me what 42 means!

A little more on topic, if whoever made those "I BELIEVE" and "GO NOSS" pictures could do one with a pic of Noss, holding a knife and a hammer, with the caption "Noss for President". I would be very appreciative.

I think this phenomenon is worthy of T-shirts.

 

[Kbrasmodeler]

Can you tell me what 42 means!

"42" is the answer to life, the universe, and everything...

 

[Lycosa]

Actually it's 41.

 

[Guyon]

It's amazing how folks here are so concerned with my post count, but I'll come clean. At 25K posts, I get to kick back and enjoy my BFC pension. This thread has really helped me toward that goal. I can't wait to live the high life.

Lycosa, however, will get there before I do. Mark my words.

Edited to add: I know it'll aggravate Gator97 that we move off topic, but maybe it'll only last a moment. Those are still some funny books. A guy introduced me to Douglas Adams when I was in the 11th grade. (That was quite some time ago for the folks who are interesting in quantifying me.) Even now, I'll pick up one of the books, read a little bit, and laugh.

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