Knifetests.com-whats YOUR opinion

[orthogonal1]

I'm sorry, but logically, part B does not follow from part A. What you have there is called a non sequitur. Your conclusion does not depend upon the conditions you assert in the earlier portion.

If you want to debate the term stupid in terms of substantive information, well isn't that what Broos has been doing all along? Noting with factual information the unreliability of effects?

I don't know.

Has Broos attempted to duplicate the "tests"? Are the "tests" non-repeatable? Simply because some exacting measurements of forces, angles, etc. were not specified does not make the results invalid.

If my Trailmaster sucks at chopping pine with the factory edge, does that mean we should assume that no other Trailmasters will suck at chopping pine, since no test of at least 5 (a common minimum sample) has not been performed.

If one were to write down exacting criteria for each phase of the "tests" NOSS4 performs and do the tests to these criteria, would the results be any different? I don't think they would, since the tests are taking the knives to the extreme. Making that assumption of not being valid would be a "non sequitur", yes? Would it not be better to say that further tests should be run but based on these observed occurances the results appear to be as stated by NOSS4?

If Broos wishes to prove the tests "stupid", then his "scientific" results would be different, perhaps the opposite of those of NOSS4. Until that time, is there any proof of "stupidity"?

But that is assuming Broos would choose similar or like tests. Since Broos appears to be under the belief that the "tests" of NOSS4 are "stupid", I'm sure the "testing" Broos would perform would be different.


BTW - nothing against Broos personally. But, if a person wishes to put some knives through "H-E-double hockey sticks" and that person doesn't follow some ideal criteria, that is not sufficient reason to negate the results and call them "stupid". The name calling is borish.:thumbdn:

Afterall, people don't jump on the sharpening "gurus" for their sharpening results, do they? Are these results repeatable? Have they been done with a proper sampling? What is the point of hair whittling (beyound being "cool")? Does a knife that can whittle hair cut cardboard longer?

 

[Gaurdian_A1]

I think the true measure of a good knife is how the knife fits in your hand, and that you have the correct blade steel for your tasks and climate and most importantly, you must love your knife, trust your knife and be confident in your knife...if your busse tankbuster doesnt feel that way in your hand but your buck 110 FB does, then ultimately you need to carry the one you like.

so what if noss is some crazy redneck who is the end all of knife serial killers (lmao), his videos are entertaining and informative to some and totally propostrous to others.. its all opinions..no one is right or wrong on this topic, no matter what any of you say...and what you do say is only YOUR OPINION.

so lets just get over it and leave it at that.

 

[Karda]

I'm not sure I take your meaning. Feel free to elaborate. (You're also welcome to do so via PM or a more appropriate forum.)

You seem to be intelligent enough to figure it out.

From what I've seen, that's not the case. Look back through this thread and count the personal insults up, and you'll see who's winning that game.

Count up the insults in this and the past threads,which is what i'm going by (no need to be shortsighted) and you will see you've miscalculated.

As for the "noss fans" learning some manners and civility. This is another case of you taking everyone who doesn't agree with your view and grouping them into a a big tent of idiot fanboys. Someone having a different opinion than yourself doesn't make them a "noss fan". It makes them an individual that doesn't share your (very strong) feelings on the subject. If you feel name calling and dividing forum members into 2 easily defined groups is the only way to express your argument, then that paints a broader picture of you than those you choose to do it to.

Rather than outright name calling, you've resorted to subtleties,the result is the same. I wonder who has taught you the concept of the Ruse so well.

 

[orthogonal1]

So again, your point is that one is not qualified to comment on videos, unless they already have shot some of their own videos? Can't you figure out what a lame and nonsensical argument that is when it comes to science?

And I hate to tell you, but in science there is no such thing as an "unsubstantiated allegations" when it comes to figuring out how and why things happen.

Why don't you tell me where I have posted something that is incorrect? Or better yet, tell us exactly what semi-randomly smashing a knife with a steel hammer tells us.

And btw, many moons ago, I did post with some suggestions on how to make the video more repeatable. To no avail, I'm sure.

Actually, the point is that if you think the tests are "stupid" you should do your own and prove the results of NOSS4 invalid. Simply because you don't like how something was done has little to with the validity of the results.

And please remember that "proper" experiments are often the result of first observing something and then desiring to prove such.

And, hopefully anyone who made it out of high school (well, perhaps college these days) could figure out a way to make tests fully repeatable. It just takes time and money.

And "lame" is calling something "stupid" simply because the activity fails to follow some specific protocol akin to a grade school experiment lab book.

 

[Kiah]

Count up the insults in this and the past threads,which is what i'm going by (no need to be shortsighted) and you will see you've miscalculated.

Sorry, I don't have the time or fortitude to go back and read every Noss thread on this forum. In the context of this thread though, taking the past actions of others and using it to excuse your own behavior in this thread is childish at best.

Rather than outright name calling, you've resorted to subtleties,the result is the same.

I'm sorry you're reading disagreement or general admonishment as subtle insults, but that's not my cross to bear.

I wonder who has taught you the concept of the Ruse so well.

Are you implying that I'm some sort of student of Noss? There you go again with the "me against them" mentality.

You seem to be intelligent enough to figure it out.

Nonsense.

 

[shunsui]

Who wants a couple of these ?

http://www.urbandictionary.com/zazzle.products.php?defid=537442

 

[PeterPHWS]

What is perhaps worth considering is whether "scientific" repeatable tests can evaluate equipment as well as "field test" usage....in military procurement the "field test" format has proven to be more popular and more suitable in terms of evaluating what works.

To determine this obviously a number of samples gives the best results...using a singular sample is limiting...but the benefit of a single sample is still of some value...because at the end of the day even if that sample is defective...it could still show the problem of defective quality control not spotting the item tested...

So on that premis....and allowing for the properly stated fact that usage of equipment will be a "random" and not "repeatable" series of events...the "tests" or "procedures" carried out by Noss on single samples of knives can be interesting and informative to many who are considering which knife they want for a hard use knife...

Naturally other types of knives....say something like a SAK...are not suited to such tests but they also are not tested AFAIK...

Now as to whether there should be some form of educational aspect on saying to new comers to knife ownership that knives are tools and there are tasks that some are suited to and others are not...I agree...this is an important aspect...but I also think that for many types of other knives that exist....this is somewhat self evident....

So getting to the benefit of such procedures....for me the knives that have held up well in his tests are not suprisingly also doing well in other peoples tests and seem to be doing well in private use...

If I were procuring a knife for our MOD and the budget and size of contract had candidates from CRK such as the Project 1 and from Busse such as a SAR8 then the results from the Noss ( let's call them destructive procedures ) would be of interest to me....and whilst they would not be conclusive and no doubt there would be a whole battery of "procedures" other than those done by Noss...the basic "toughness" of the respective knives would be judged by "random" tasks/testing ....

It is in this "vein" of assessment that I think the procedures carried out by Noss are interesting...particularly for the private buyer who on a limited budget cannot afford to buy multiple samples nor destroy them...

So on this "simple" basis of looking at what "hard use" knives are out there and which are the best... I think what he does has some "interest" .... it's not the total picture nor would I base a purchase just on what is done there... but it is to me "interesting" and of some "value"....

His personal reasons for carrying out these evaluations or what they show about attention seeking etc...I am not bothered about...each to their own on that score...

 

[Karda]

Sorry, I don't have the time or fortitude to go back and read every Noss thread on this forum. In the context of this thread though, taking the past actions of others and using it to excuse your own behavior in this thread is childish at best.

There you go again with the subtle insults. Its as plain as the nose on your face. I merely stated that you had miscalculated. In no way did i state that others past actions excused my behavior, then again neither do they yours. What excuse will you be giving for your behavior and condescending manner?

I'm sorry you're reading disagreement or general admonishment as subtle insults, but that's not my cross to bear.

Generalities, Yes, Vieled insults, yes. It seems to me you have plenty of crosses to bear and taking time to "generally admonish" me is the least of them.

Are you implying that I'm some sort of student of Noss? There you go again with the "me against them" mentality.

You are hardly impartial in this,i might suggest that you are voicing the same "mentality", just in a different manner.

Who wants a couple of these ?

http://www.urbandictionary.com/zazzle.products.php?defid=537442

Jealous of his success? very funny.[sarcasm] I also wanted to be in the Jackass movie[/sarcasm] I guess you also have nothing productive to add to this topic except veiled insults.

 

[Kiah]

There you go again with the subtle insults. Its as plain as the nose on your face.

My nose is anything but subtle.

What excuse will you be giving for your behavior and condescending manner?

I wasn't aware I needed one. But then I wasn't aware I was condescending, so my view my be skewed.

It seems to me you have plenty of crosses to bear and taking time to "generally admonish" me is the least of them.

You are hardly impartial in this,i might suggest that you are voicing the same "mentality", just in a different manner.

I'll tell ya' what. I'm gonna quit arguing with you in this thread as it's not productive and I'm not gonna get into cross-forum stuff here. However, I'll take your quotes and continue it elsewhere where you're free to join. :thumbup:

 

[Karda]

I'll tell ya' what. I'm gonna quit arguing with you in this thread as it's not productive and I'm not gonna get into cross-forum stuff here. However, I'll take your quotes and continue it elsewhere where you're free to join. :thumbup:

Like that will be any more productive. Step up on any soapbox you like, wherever. Or feel free to pm me with what you feel you cant say here.

 

[shunsui]

Jealous of his success? very funny.[sarcasm] I also wanted to be in the Jackass movie[/sarcasm] I guess you also have nothing productive to add to this topic except veiled insults.

Ah, c'mon, I'm just yanking your chain.

Actually if you plug jealousy into their lookup engine you'll find a definition that applies to you because you supposedly "care" so much for the new knife buyers and the knife community. Check it out.

But while I have your attention let me say that your arguments although passionate aren't very persuasive. Yes I'm a bit prejudiced here, but I think you need to bring more to the table if you want us to appreciate your point of view.

 

[Kiah]

Like that will be any more productive. Step up on any soapbox you like, wherever. Or feel free to pm me with what you feel you cant say here.

I'm not sure they even make soapboxes anymore, so that could be an issue. I've answered you in another thread. I'm aware that you've seen it, so you can continue there if you feel the need to. I'm done with this thread, as I don't want Joe's virtual foot in my behind when he sees it Tomorrow. If you feel the need for the last word, have at it. I'm out of it. :thumbup:

 

[greater]

Wow this thread goes on and on this is too much for me. I have to find something more substantial to spend my time at.

 

[Karda]

Ah, c'mon, I'm just yanking your chain.

Actually if you plug jealousy into their lookup engine you'll find a definition that applies to you because you supposedly "care" so much for the new knife buyers and the knife community. Check it out.

But while I have your attention let me say that your arguments although passionate aren't very persuasive. Yes I'm a bit prejudiced here, but I think you need to bring more to the table if you want us to appreciate your point of view.

I only care that falsehoods not be perpetuated that tear this community down, and that they not be committed at others expense.
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion about the destruction gimmick.
In the past it was the noss fans who came in on the attack with insults, now they point fingers. But i guess its alright for noss4 to be childish. Anyone can see thru the veil to the truth if they wish to.

 

[shunsui]

Wow this thread goes on and on this is too much for me. I have to find something more substantial to spend my time at.

I agree. I'm going to check out that Bark River Boone II review.

 

[orthogonal1]

I agree. I'm going to check out that Bark River Boone II review.

Actually, that review is pretty good.

 

[bearcut]

I see a much bigger stream of guys coming in to proclaim that Busse's are the best because they are the toughest blades around. Some may have seen Noss's videos but others have simply been swayed by the marketing. When they show up they are welcomed with open arms. I don't see a lot of knife education going on with them, just a bunch of cheer leading and encouragement to beat on those blades.

True.

Then there is the fact that anyone who writes a less than favorable review of their experience with Busse's is immediately ganged up on from said brand forumites.

I've almost never seen a somewhat dissatisfied user totally bash the Busse brand. Usually they simply state that the brand diasapointed them in one area or another and they decided that they didn't care for them any longer. Edge retention ranks up there as the most common complaint.

Most of the OP's were very impartial. They ended up fighting off attack dogs. I 've seen it time and time again.

I wrote a review several months ago when I tested 3 brands against each other. I didn't chop steel, concrete or depleted uranium. I didn't bend each knife 90 degrees over and over. I did simple tests that replicated hard survival and field work.

I didn't rank the Busse 1st. I was immediately pounced on.

I actually had a Moderator step in and refute my attackers. (Usually the mods are yelling at ME). The Mod said that I had written a very honest and impartial review, which was true. He said that I had given the Busse very good marks, which I had. His final thoughts to the assassins were: "What's the matter, good enough isn't good enough for you guys?"

So, back to knifetests.com and the Busse 'tests'. Either bashing and hammering knives proves very little, or it is a legitimate protocol, it can't be both.

Seems to be quite a double standard around here.

 

[Broos]

....

I was making an analogy, you are the one who is stuck on the "stupidity"! Explain your theory that one has to first make a video in order to comment on a video. Do you also think that one has to first jump off a bridge, in order to build a bridge? Or should every good airplane designer first have to crash an airplane before they are qualified? I can go on and on with the analogies, so try not to get to stuck on one.

And as I suspected - you cannot come up with one factual statement I have made to contend with. Your arguments are empty, and do not even make sense in the context of a discussion of physical science.

Why don't you tell me what has to happen to make those videos repeatable - have you given it any thought? Are you familiar with any of the tests that are considered repeatable and what is involved in them? Have you looked around to research the TRUTH about beating on hardened steel with a steel hammer? Your statement above only tells me that you have not, and are just pulling your comments out of a dark place with zero facts to back you up. You are like a lawyer in a test lab.

Instead of more empty words, why don't you tell us how you can make any test where you will beat on hardened steel with a steel hammer repeatable. Once again, I think there have been more than many suggestions provided to that little scared fella, nossy, in the various threads.

I will at least give you credit that you aren't a coward, unlike young boys who make comments in lame videos showing semi-random and unrepeatable failure.

 

[shunsui]

Actually, that review is pretty good.

It was very entertaining, esp after reading this thread. For those who didn't browse their forums, Noss has two more Bark River knives to test, (maybe we should say "review" for the benefit of the detractors). I didn't find out which models they are. I'm hoping one is A2 steel. The Boone II was presented as 52-100.

Gotta love those Bark River handles.

 

[Broos]

So getting to the benefit of such procedures....for me the knives that have held up well in his tests are not suprisingly also doing well in other peoples tests and seem to be doing well in private use...

So are the ones that failed. I have stated already exactly what one can actually learn by semi-randomly smashing hardened steel with a steel hammer, and it ain't much. Maybe you can tell us exactly what you learned by watching it.

Science already knows how to make a test repeatable. They already know how to use sample size & statistics to prove something. The information is out there on the WWW for all to see at any time. The problem is a poor understanding by many of what is true, and what is not true.

I will state again my opinion of 90% of the talk in these threads - it is like listening to lawyers arguing about how to operate a test lab. There is very little specific and applicable science ever ever mentioned.

The argument about repeatability or scientific validity is not a subjective issue. It is an argument that can be proved or generally agreed upon using theory and or empirical science. Your opinion and my opinion have nothing at all to do with it. Did you look into the charpy test like I mentioned in my previous post? Has anyone?

The other problem is let's say someone is only willing to make lame personal attacks in a video, yet is afraid to make any similar comments to their face. Now this is a subject that doesn't require one to actually know what they are talking about to comment on. In my opinion, that scenario brings to mind the word punk.