knives used by the red army at stalingrad.

[TLM]

always very well armed and honestly better armed then germans or american or anybody else

Not quite historically accurate.

TLM

 

[maximus otter]

"Quantity has a quality all its own."

Joseph Vissarionovich Stalin

Qualitatively, German kit was better than Russian. I would prefer to be armed with a Kar98k than a Moisin Nagant; I would prefer to crew a Panther than a T-34.

However, ~6,000 Panthers could never be a match for ~50,000 Shermans or ~84,000 T-34s.

We should all be grateful that there was a monster like Stalin to help us defeat the monster that was Hitler.

maximus otter

 

[kramska]

Of course he's going to say that, who likes to admit their invention was not entirely original? And maybe it was. Maybe the AK just bears a striking resemblance to the S44. I don't see the problem with admitting some inspiration may have come from captured S44's. His design was an improvement and has obviously stood the test of time. Truth still stands, the S44 was first as an assault rifle.

It's agreed that the Russian soldiers were tough and good fighters, but it took a whole lot more of them with a whole lot more artillery, tanks, planes to push the Germans back to their border.

 

[Archer26]

A documentry I shaw years ago while I was into reinactment had the noted historian AP Taylor talking about the state of the war in 1944. his statement that in 1944 the Germany army was probably still the best in the world raised a few arguments. But thinking about it, the manufacturing might of the USA won WW2. Russia was supplied by the west with more aircraft and tanks from the west than Germany produced. Only 1500 Tiger Tanks produced, 50000 T34's and about the same Shermans.

 

[znapschatz]

A documentry I shaw years ago while I was into reinactment had the noted historian AP Taylor talking about the state of the war in 1944. his statement that in 1944 the Germany army was probably still the best in the world raised a few arguments. But thinking about it, the manufacturing might of the USA won WW2. Russia was supplied by the west with more aircraft and tanks from the west than Germany produced. Only 1500 Tiger Tanks produced, 50000 T34's and about the same Shermans.

Although prodigious, US production was decisive only on the Western front and against Japan. Lend-Lease aid accounted for less than 10% of Soviet war material. Victory over Nazi Germany was primarily achieved by the Soviet military and industry, with important help from the western allies. Do the math.

 

[nozh2002]

"Quantity has a quality all its own."

Joseph Vissarionovich Stalin

Qualitatively, German kit was better than Russian. I would prefer to be armed with a Kar98k than a Moisin Nagant; I would prefer to crew a Panther than a T-34.

However, ~6,000 Panthers could never be a match for ~50,000 Shermans or ~84,000 T-34s.

We should all be grateful that there was a monster like Stalin to help us defeat the monster that was Hitler.

maximus otter

First of all, it was not Stalin who won this War but Russians! Stalin makeit harder for Russians o win this war, again because of his mistake it was such a great loss at the begining surprize attac and then his direct envolvment lead to defeat in Kharkov battle in 1942 - great loss which lead to Stalingrad. It was not war between Hitler and Stalin, it was between Germans trying to conquer and enslave Russians (this was seen on any level and I heard myself evidence how regular german solders treat russians).

With the army Russia has at the begining of the War - War should be ended in 3 month and germans should not be near Moscow.

Again quantity against quality is silly excuse germans historian came up with to cover ultimate and unquestinable defeat. This is attempts to excuse their theory of racial superiority, like it was too many russian against one german superman! German is may be best solders of Euorope and it was this way from Roman Empier, but they no match to Russians on battlefield and never was, this was well prooven I think.

You may simple analize batlles Russian won during WWII. And if you need example of quantity against quality better look at Korean War.

Thanks, Vassili.

 

[Redguy]

I should correct you - most of them were superior or as good as German or the Western allies weapon, especially near the end of the War, otherwise how Russia was able to win this War?

By the sheer numbers.

With the army Russia has at the begining of the War - War should be ended in 3 month and germans should not be near Moscow.

Again quantity against quality is silly excuse germans historian came up with to cover ultimate and unquestinable defeat. This is attempts to excuse their theory of racial superiority, like it was too many russian against one german superman!

This is nonsence. The Soviet Red Army was waaay bigger than the Wehrmacht and the Waffen SS and all the Axis forces together. It's a simple fact and there's no shame about it. Patriotism is one thing, spreading misinformation is an other.The Third Reich has lost the war and that's a good thing. Stalin later conquered and enslaved half of Europe and that's a bad thing. I don't blame the German people and I don't blame the Russian people, because I refuse to believe in collective guilt. My country - like every country in the world - has also commited horrifying crimes thoughout it's history, and I would be a damn fool if I deny the facts. And please Vassili, don't call me a racist, I have a few Russian friends.

So how about the knives used at Stalingrad?

 

[Nathan S]

First of all, it was not Stalin who won this War but Russians! Stalin makeit harder for Russians o win this war.

Stalin's own actions pretty much guaranteed that Hitler would invade the Soviet Union. He must have know that Hitler had always regarded communists in general, and the Soviet Union specifically, as enemies. Notwithstanding this knowledge, Stalin colluded with the Nazis to divide up eastern Europe, thereby making Hitler stronger and pushing the German border closer to the Soviet Union. Operation Barbarossa was the result.

 

[Cougar Allen]

Gentlebeings, we're drifting quite a bit. What about the knives?

 

[65hoss]

Gentlebeings, we're drifting quite a bit. What about the knives?

Oh, this was a thread about knives? haha:thumbup:

 

[nozh2002]

By the sheer numbers.

This is nonsence. The Soviet Red Army was waaay bigger than the Wehrmacht and the Waffen SS and all the Axis forces together. It's a simple fact and there's no shame about it. Patriotism is one thing, spreading misinformation is an other.The Third Reich has lost the war and that's a good thing. Stalin later conquered and enslaved half of Europe and that's a bad thing. I don't blame the German people and I don't blame the Russian people, because I refuse to believe in collective guilt. My country - like every country in the world - has also commited horrifying crimes thoughout it's history, and I would be a damn fool if I deny the facts. And please Vassili, don't call me a racist, I have a few Russian friends.

I insist that you check how battles was won and what actions each side takes - brilliant operations which are in many military studybooks now in all military academies.

And it was not waaay biggeras you sad. Check also combat losses - not a POW and civilians killed by germans, even including POW it is 1 to 2, but you may expect different if it was about quantity. Also at the first days of war millions was lost, due to surprise attack and unwilliness of Stalin to hear the truth about comming war. Again it is widely spread belive that it is quantity matter, but this is just usual loser's excuse, which make them feel more comfortable.

Fact is that Russian is better warriors and always was. Many tried to question this - no success so far.

"Stalin later conquered and enslaved half of Europe and that's a bad thing"

This is not so simple. Russian liberates Europe from Nazy. Then russian communists help "local" communists take ower in many of this countries, but for example in Austria there were no too much local communist then in your Hungary and Austria with Russian troops inside remains democratic. If you know history - communist movement was popular over Europe that time - nobody really knows what it does really mean. Thanks to US involvement it was under control and French for example did not turn communist.

This is simple and more comfortable for many to blame only Russians (especially when they can not answer this call), but communism is international disease and big part of the blame are on your local communists - hungarian. Belive me Russian is biggest victom of communism - more then any other nation.

Thanks, Vassili.

So how about the knives used at Stalingrad?

If you read my post you may notice NR-40 - this was knife used by Red Army.

 

[Whoever Wherever]

First of all stop with the back and forth. Saying russians are better soldiers than germans is a racist statement. Soldiers are individuals like all of us. Some Russian troops were brave beyond measure and some probably froze in the heat of combat and were killed because of there reaction to extreme duress. This is true of all soldiers and all armies. Not every soldier has the same physical prowess, mental stability, knowledge of tactics nor do they respond the same way in the face of hand to hand combat and watching there buddies die. The fact is that we have all learned what we know from biased sources. Russians are I'm shure taught that there soldiers are toughest just as Americans are taught the same thing. These statements are what grown-ups tell kids. In America there is a controversy over how the battle at the Alamo went. Americans say that every man in the fort faught bravely to the death. Mexican hand written acount from the same battle field suggest this is not true. My point is that unless you were there you are just reciting what some historian has told you in the form of some book. We all know that college geeks who wright books have all the right answers and all there facts straight at all times (ROFL ROFL ROFL). Also the fact is that history is always told from the perspective of the winner. This also leads to a lack over unbiased info. Personly I think the fact that germans marched in under the influence of labratory grade crystal meth may have contributed to there effectivenss in the earlier battles. Hard to say the effects on there troops as there drug supply was cut off and they started to go through withdraw symptons. So all that said, lets not get to heated here lol.

 

[nozh2002]

Saying russians are better soldiers than germans is a racist statement.

You are turning this up side down - I am answering the statement that Russians won just because of their quantity against German - wich does smell bad! Or you think this is just fine? If you can not accept "Russians are better warriors" - well OK let me rephrase this like Russian won because they fight better on all level, from better production of better weapons, fighting with this weapons better and plan battles better.

I can admit that I was not told that Russian are covards when I grow up, but there are some facts to back up this claim! After all Russia won - won biggest war in history of humanity, which will never happen again. Against equal and brutal enemy which has advantage in surprize attack. I understand that for some it is uncomfortable to hear, but it hard to hide, so only way to disregard this fact - claim that it was just because it were so many of this russians, because of cold or something else as an excuse losers came up with in such cases... And I can not agree with this.

My famaly lost 2 members in this war and all my grand parents fight as well as any Russian has relatives who was killed by Germans. In any town, any small village all around Russia (Ukraine, Kazakhstan, former SU) there is small monument to solders who did not came back from this war - and always in it 20-50 people listed on this monuments. At least in the our village it was about 40 - 1-2 men from each household. And when I hear all this crap it just makes me sick! Sorry.

Thanks, Vassili.

 

[Whoever Wherever]

I would never try and slight the Russian armies might. It just seemed to me we had lowered our standards to blanket statements about whole races. I do understand your rephrased comment much better. As far as the cold goes, I both agree and disagree with you. I am from Alaska and know exactly what a seriously cold winter can do to your spirit. Add to this the fact that the Russian soldiers are used to it and the Germans Aernt and it does equate to a advantage for the "home team". That said I think you are right that this is not the main reason Germany lost on the Russian front. It was the Russian forces that defeated them. It's not like it got cold one day and the Germans all left. Also I agree with you that numbers do not win a battle. They certainly help and numbers have won many battles. However there are to many occasions to name in wich a smaller force defeated a larger one to use this as a blanket reason for German defeat.

As an American it is in no way uncomfortable to give Russia its due for winning the war on there front or admitting that they had a great miltiary. This may be because I am younger and did not get into the whole Russia/U.S.A. cold war propaganda machine. Like many Americans my Grandfather was involved in the inland push from Normandy and I know many of his comrades did not come home either. So I certainly understand why the notion that cold weather and superior numbers is why Russia came out on top would bother you. Obviously the Russians earned the victories and payed in blood. No one can ever take this away or make slight of it.

 

[Guntotin_fool]

There was so much political insanity going on at the time, that it is amazing in a sad way that any of them were ever able to get a big war going at all.

That said and not open to discussion.

At Stalingrad and Leningrad, the level of equipment available by the time the siege was on, there was no doubt that the war material edge went to the Germans to start with.

However, by the time the first winter had hit and going on from there, there is not much between them except that the germans at least had food.

When any army is defending its homeland for its very survival, and it was indeed Hitlers intent to destroy the russian people and populate it with his nations sons and daughters, all except the french will fight like a cornered animal. That was the ferocity that made the difference, the russians simply got mean and took it out on the german soldiers there, and later the german populace later in the war.

The Soviets had the advantage later of having to virtually to start from scratch and from having designers who understood both the best and worst of other designs as they existed. The slanted armor on the T34 was a way to get the protection of a heavy tank and use the raw materials of a medium tank. The diesel engine was used not to be safer for the crews, but it used Diesel and left high octane gasoline for the aircraft. The gun was the same anti tank gun used by all the infantry. One chambering for like 50% of the big guns in use, and that chambering only had two loadings a AP shot and a HE gp load. The semi standard PPsh and the other sub guns used 9mm not because it was a great round, but they could use any captured german ammo as replacements. it was useful up to 100 yards. It was made in England, Finland and the US and so was easily importable. The russians were used to living in the cold AND they learned the lessons of the winter war with Finland very well. Crappy weather and poor uniforms and no food meant that fighting was next to impossible. So the Russians understood the need for warm food, heavy calories, white pull overs and warm clothes to keep the troops fighting.

Later in the war, the great Russian war factory got into gear as they overcame a lot of the issues that had arisen earlier and began producing truely top notch fighting equipment. Low tech, hell for stout, and easily used by men who had little or no education. the latter T series tanks, the upgraded IS heavy tanks, the SU series SP guns, the later marks of Yak fighters, the improved 152 and 122 cannon. really by the end of the war, they were not suffering with old fashioned warfighting equipment.

 

[TLM]

That said I think you are right that this is not the main reason Germany lost on the Russian front. It was the Russian forces that defeated them.

Matter of taste, the truth is that German forces were not prepared for the winter, least not fighting in the winter. Here they had to borrow gun oils from the finns to make theirs work at all.

After that somebody still had to do the actual winning.

German's war was lost in 1941 when the idiots tried to hit their head against the Moscow defense instead of just going around.

TLM

 

[savagesicslayer]

I opened up a huge can of worms here.Thanks for the great debate though.

 

[nozh2002]

Matter of taste, the truth is that German forces were not prepared for the winter, least not fighting in the winter. Here they had to borrow gun oils from the finns to make theirs work at all.

After that somebody still had to do the actual winning.

German's war was lost in 1941 when the idiots tried to hit their head against the Moscow defense instead of just going around.

TLM

The truth is -
It was battle at Moscow 1941 and Stalingrad 1942 which was won by Russian at winter time. And at Stalingrad germans were prepared for winter. It was strategic won when russian surround german army near Stalingrad. It was not cold it was strategic planning by Russian generals which outsmart germans.

Then at summer time it was Kursk battle - biggest battle in the history of humanity (and I guess such a battle will never happen again). This time better strategic planning and execution on battlefield not a cold and outnumbers makes russian won - and after this german military machine was finally broken.

Battle near Kharkow 1942 summer was lost by Russian because Stalin was directly involved in planing it and did not allow to make it right. After this he learn to stay back and let russian general to plan battles.

Truth is again - cold and outnumbers is usual excuse for losers.

Thanks, Vassili.

P.S. I just check Globe - Stalingrad is south from Berlin. So it should be same cold as at Germany...

 

[TLM]

P.S. I just check Globe - Stalingrad is south from Berlin. So it should be same cold as at Germany...
Reply With Quote

Maybe. just maybe you should check on temps in various months on these locations.

The truth is -
It was battle at Moscow 1941 and Stalingrad 1942 which was won by Russian at winter time. And at Stalingrad germans were prepared for winter. It was strategic won when russian surround german army near Stalingrad. It was not cold it was strategic planning by Russian generals which outsmart germans.

That is the Soviet Russian truth that I count for nothing, without general Winter the SU would have ceased to exist in 1943. Fortunately Gen Winter was not on Hitler's side.

TLM

 

[savagesicslayer]

What knives were the german army using?? how do they stack up against their soviet counterparts?