knives used by the red army at stalingrad.

at certain things the M16 was better than the AK47. The AK 74 was more like the M16. They did different jobs.

As a main battle rifle the heavier 7.62 x 39 rd IS a better rifle round for certain types of terrain. Just like the M1 battle rifle was 7.62 for that same reason.

But not always. nothing is always better than something else.


Unless Vasilli says it of course!
 
Or the Sturmgewehr 44, the first assault rifle, designed by the germans but not used at Stalingrad of course. Most claim that it served as the model for the AK47, some argue that it did not. Take a look and you decide.

The German standard carbine was antiquated at the beginning of the war.

The Russians had excellent and from most accounts, superior sub machine guns, the PPsh41. They made them in large quantities, they were reliable, and worked better in the cold environment of Russia. The Germans hadn't developed a lubricant to function effectively at cold temperatures.

As I recall, the Stg 44 was the basis for CETME/ G-3/ HK-91 pattern weapons that were used in a number of NATO, and NATO supplied countries until the 7.62x51 was phased out in favor of the 5.56.

I must disagree that the K98 was antiquated at the beginning of WWII. It was on par with, or better than most issue arms of the day. Think about it. We had the Garand- all right, that's better, and the Enfield action can trace routes to the 1890's as can the Mauser. The Mauser action is itself the basis for modern sporting rifles (the Ruger M-77, CZ's, Zastava Mark X) and countless weapons built on surplus action. It has a reputation for strangth and durability which is important. I wouldn't scoff at the 7.92mm round either.

Okay, the Russians had something going with the PPsh 41. However, the Russians can't get full credit their either. The Finns' had the Suomi dating back a full decade before the PPsh 41.

As I recall reading, the Russian (or was it Finn or maybe both) solution to the freezing cold and gun oil was to add a certain amount of gun oil to the mix, lowering the freezing point. Pretty simple when you think about it:)
 
I recall Solzhenitsyn describing two white-clad eastern front soldiers jumping into a crater, firing at the enemy and then cursing when each of their submachineguns froze-up due to the cold. They took a break from the fighting to share cigarettes.

When the two compatriots threw back the hoods off of their helmets one was wearing a German helmet and the other a Soviet helmet. The two Russians grabbed their frozen subguns, found they were still frozen and then fell on each other like dogs.

So much for either side knowing how to lube their weapons. My dad (US Army, 4th armored, artillery) said they used gasoline to lube their rifles during the winter.

Knife? :confused: Uh... my dad had a bayonet.:D
 
Suomi sm-gun was as bad as the others if it was properly oiled. The solution was to use it dry or use lamp oil as lubricant.

The germans just did not know what to do with winter, very few troops had proper clothing and boots. Their logistics could not cope with the cold at all. If one looks at the times when germans were winning it was not at winter time. Also Hitlers demand to capture Leningrad and Moscow was as wrong a decision as possible, for several reasons. During winter war the russians were not much better but they learned.

Finns had no issue knife, everyone was supposed to have his own puukko. Bayonets were issued not not much used.

TLM
 
I recall Solzhenitsyn describing two white-clad eastern front soldiers jumping into a crater, firing at the enemy and then cursing when each of their submachineguns froze-up due to the cold. They took a break from the fighting to share cigarettes.

When the two compatriots threw back the hoods off of their helmets one was wearing a German helmet and the other a Soviet helmet. The two Russians grabbed their frozen subguns, found they were still frozen and then fell on each other like dogs.

I didn't realise the Soviets wore helmets as part of their winter uniform, I thought they wore ushankas.
 
People to often base their opinion of the battle of Stalingrad on a movie "Enemy at the Gates”, Hollywood is not known for getting small details like facts right.

Stalingrad was fought over mostly by Russian guard divisions as well as Sea Infantry (marines), both groups were the absolute best available to the USSR at the time. Particularly the loss of 10,000 men in a 24h period that someone before mentioned was not taken by unarmed conscripts of a movie, but by the elite 13th “Gvardeiskaya” (guard) Division.

Why is this?

Look at a map of Stalingrad. It is a small urban area 10 kilometers north/south along the river, with about 2 kilometers wide at it widest. In addition to that all reinforcements and all surplus must come over the river. A large army was on the other side of the river, but only so many could cross at a time using boats of the river fleet. So the best were sent. In addition to that the river crossing could be disrupted (direct fire from 88mm canons) from an overlooking location – the “hill 103” (Mamaev Kurgan). If the Germans controlled the hill they shot to bits every boat that tried to cross. So the hill was taken and retaken dozens and dozens of times over the battle, the cost on the hill was nothing compared to the cost on the river.

Further more – with the city being only 2 kilometers deep strict defense was not possible. Even if the Germans crawled forward they would toss the red army into the river in a week. The ONLY way was to counterattack continuously and take ground back. Every German attack was accompanied by a Russian counter attack on a different sector. The one counter example being “Pavlov’s House” where a single squad found a building in excellent strategic position and decided to hold it.

In terms of equipment the most important ones were grenades, sub machine guns and sniper rifles. In Stalingrad USSR had superiority in the guns and parity in grenades. USSR sniper rifles were better, because they were simpler. German scope was bigger, took longer to zero and adjust windage on, needed careful handling and was very accurate, Russian scope was light, simple, rugged and sufficient to the task. In smgs again USSR had superiority, the PPsh was rugged, low-maintenance and with a rate of fire of 900 rpm, its only disadvantage was in the propensity of the drum magazine to collect sand, this was fixed with the introduction of the box type magazine. The German mp38/40 was also prone to magazine jams, but to a much greater degree, and had a significantly lower fire power (resulting in later introduction of the mp40II to counter the ppsh)

Sorry for long post if you actually bothered to read it :)
 
Considering the end result defending Stalingrad might have been worth it all. Looking at things from the other side the russians were lucky that v. Mannstein could not do what he wanted, he might have won the battle.

TLM
 
Ow, and in regards to knives used generally Russian forces preferred theirs in bayonet form, while as was mentioned before scouts were equipped with a "finka" a finish/pukko type knife.
The instructions/training in its use accepted both regular (knife blade up, all fingers curled around handle, edge out) and reverse grip (blade down, edge out, fingers around handle, thumb -over- the "pommel" of the knife.
Points of contact in training were:

front: Under the left chest pocket of the jacket (heart), solar plexus, under the Adam’s apple, half way between groin and belly button, groin.

rear: back of the neck, kidneys, just under the shoulder blades (scapula), and lower part of the buttocks (about level of the top of the hip bone)

Training exercises usually were done by counts, on one the armed hand was brought behind the attackers back (standard attack position was with blade concealed), on two a strike was delivered, lower point of contact were attacked using regular grip, upper points reversed grip.

Example: One- hand with knife in reverse grip, thumb over handle butt, is brought behind attacker back. Two- strike from above, downwards aiming just below the left chest pocket of the targets shirt, with a simultaneous step forward of the left leg. Repeat with left hand.

That was the training, how much of this was used in practice is arguable.
 
from my research into the siege of Stalingrad
starvation was the real killer
millions died form lack of food, many resorted to consuming paint and motor oil
and thus died.
General Zhukov is of course a true hero from this
fascinating photos of the weapons. very interesting the phukko style field knife.
 
from my research into the siege of Stalingrad
starvation was the real killer

Yeah, that's kind of how a seige works. You surround your enemy and whittle away at him, while denying him food and so forth. Too bad for the Germans, they ran out of supplies too.

It's a sickening thought, how hungry and desperate people must have been, military and civilian alike.
 
"The World at War" narr. by Sir Lawrence Olivier is a fascinating documentary.
obviously has a western slant,but real images of the war.

anyway, this thread got me to thinking about russian made knives. check out ausjulius and his knife company. go to knifeforums.com search ausjulius and you can see photos of the factory.
can't thank the forums enough.
buzz:thumbup:
hope this is helpfull
 
I didn't realise the Soviets wore helmets as part of their winter uniform, I thought they wore ushankas.

Perhaps Solzhenitsyn didn't say "helmet". Its been 31 years since I've read it. But when each one saw the other's "head gear" they realized one was in the German army and the other the Soviet army.

Recalling other things I've read from 30 years ago, Guderian thought that if Hitler had stuck to the plans that were drawn up, the Wermacht could have taken the USSR before winter set in. The planned start of Operation Barbarossa was for May 1941. Instead, Hitler put off the invasion to put down an uprising in Belgrade which many think was instigated by Britain.

Many still thought that the German army could have taken the USSR if after launching Barbarossa in June 1941 Army Group Center ahd not been turned south to capture the Ukraine. That turning south and then stopping and turning back North cost the Army Group Center 8 weeks, IIRC.

All together the Wermacht's plan was delayed something like 3 months.

With Moscow taken, Stalingrad could have been cut off from the supplies and reinforcements since Moscow was the major communication center of the USSR.
 
With Moscow taken, Stalingrad could have been cut off from the supplies and reinforcements since Moscow was the major communication center of the USSR.

In fact the only one. If one looks at the SU railroads in 1941 it's fairly clear. No Moscow, no help through Murmansk and basically very little trafic left, russians very fortunate Hitler did not realize this.

Russians have always been good arms makers and there are some fancy makers still. I have simpler tastes but they are ok in the looks department. I don't know how good steels they use but the metallurgical knowledge is there if used.

TLM
 
"if only Germans did this and that they be in Moscow in 2 months and win the war"

since the Germans failed to take Stalingrad, which is a small town, what make you think that Moscow would have fallen the second Germans got there? it was well fortified you know and people were getting ready to fight for every inch of it
 
Right off the top of my head, I dont know the exact disposition of Soviet forces at Moscow from June 1941 -October 1941. Guderian seemed to think the Wermacht could handle Moscow. You disagree? Can you explain why in more detail? Just how large were the forces at Moscow in August- September and what were they?

Notice that Guderian and many fellow generals thought the German army could have been in Moscow in August or September. Guderian, not me, thought the German army could have defeated the Soviet army had the offensive continued on schedule. But following the plan, the timing was vital. The plan rested upon getting to Moscow before a solid defense could be established. With the USSR defeated, Guderian would have avoided a two-front war.

I found the turning of Army Group Center one of THE under reported elements of WW2. That emphasis on timing and the German blitzkrieg explains best the rational behind the Barbarossa campaign and why Guderian figured the Geman army could succeed. So far the turning of Army Group Center best explains why the Wermacht failed.
 
"if only Germans did this and that they be in Moscow in 2 months and win the war"

since the Germans failed to take Stalingrad, which is a small town, what make you think that Moscow would have fallen the second Germans got there? it was well fortified you know and people were getting ready to fight for every inch of it

You messages read like copied from a communist history book. Many facts are not covered in these books, like the main reason why the Soviets even stood a chance to fight the Germans. This was due to military aid from the USA. The figures of US material assistance to the Soviet Union during World War II are staggering. Under the Lend Lease aid program between 1941 and 1945, the US delivered some 350,000 trucks, 78,000 jeeps and 22,000 aircraft, and billions of rounds of shells and ammunition to the USSR. In all, a huge percentage of total Soviet war production.

No offense to the red army, but the reason why the Germans lost in Stalingrad was not so much the superiority of the Russians, it was the ignorance of the German supreme commander. It was Hitler's "stay the ground" policy. Despite his general's advice he refused to allow Filed Marshal Paulus to pull his army out in time. He expected him to hold the city to the death. Paulus himself acknowleged on several occasions that he could have pulled the Sixth Army out and saved his men if he had disregarded Hitler's foolish orders.

As for the cruel treatment of Russian prisoners in Germany, the Russians treated German prisoners quite as bad, if not worse. Only 6,000 of the 91,000 German prisoners of war who surrendered in Stalingrad survived captivity.
 
According to WW2 Magazine the U.S. (Lend Lease Act) lent almost 200,000 Studebaker light and medium trucks to Russia during that war.....The Germans were still using horse drawn munitions and food wagons and had trouble getting both to the front lines duing rain or snow and would run out of food and ammo...while the Russians had plenty of trucks to haul both to the front line....It got so bad during the winter that the German soldiers were eating their horses which made it doubly difficult to move said equipment. It doesn't make any difference what kind of machine gun you have if there are no bullets...You might have well use an iron stick.

Again....this is according to WW2 Magazine. German soldiers used captured kitchen knives and captured farm tools to fight as they ran out of ammunition. Many German soldiers on the Russian front had bolt action rifles with 1890 designs and used their bayonets and trench knives for close in combat. German trench knives and Japanese swords were on the list of allied souvenirs sometimes fetching 100 dollars in 1940's dollars. Many officers got the cream of the crop as they had ways to smuggle them out of the country whereas the ground pounder had to think up ways to smuggle them in.
 
One more time: this is the Blade Discussion forum and this thread is about "knives used by the red army at stalingrad." If you want to talk about something else, the internet has places where you can talk about just about anything....
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hmmm kind of political ..

ok i will add some then,
ive spoken to several people who were in lenningrad at the time of the siege.
not stalingrad, but hey :).. similar time..
.

firstly the original troops protecting it were not sufficiant to keep the germans at bay.
stalin ordered the population to stay put and fight to the death,

he send interior ministy troops ther eto keep the people in and shot those who fled and shot fleeing soviet troops,
the basicaly forced the people to stay,

then the population was beset by the nazi germans,
who with all intentions would murder them or enslave them in labor sceams in europe if the took the city,
the communist party members and militaryin the city organised a defence , but as stalin had removed most guns ther ewas few to be had to be used to assist the russian troops,
mostly some thousand hunting guns and training toz .22s were had,
various homemade weapons were produced as bombs and spears and such,
the army its self had guns enougth,, although bearly,
later population began to produce submachine guns, bombs and other weaponry, i understand even tank parts and mortars and large guns,

later some of the population was allowed to leave but all men were kept to fight, and still many civilians were kept,

however the city was big and in the street there was gangs of bandits and cannibals roaming around to kill people to eat or rob them of thier food,
much of the civilian population died fleeing the city where german planes mowed them down,
the rest starved in the city,
later internal ministry restored order and many hundreds or thousands of cannibals were executed, i met a man who was nearly eaten in the seige when he was a boy, many were escaped convicts or other rouges...
as for knives , i think they used what they could, .
seems amoungst the russians form rural areas hunting knvies stuck in the boot were common with soliders fom rural villages in central siberia..
mostly look like guardless broad balded hidden tang knives, , with a slight clip point or slightly curved blade, like things use din the kitchen 3mm thick or so,


as the "mongolidic" troops the nazis encounteres later in 1943 and 1944 , mostly there is kazakhs, mongolians, tuvans and kyrgiz, (stalin was invading tuva while the men were on the front :P cheeky guy :) )
these 4 groups adoped the sovied secular system enmass in the 1920's and were mostly pro soviet and could be trusted, there was many kazakhs heros of ww2 and sereval very decorated kazakh female snipers and tank drivers,

the uzbeks, tajiks , turkmen and most south caucasus people were veiwed and for the most part anti soviet and pro nazi, as were most of the north caucascus folk other than the dagestanis, who also fought in very large numbers in ww2,,

much of these non russian peoples had been seminomadic farmers, .. or herdsmen or living in mountian villages before the war , and so many still retianed their traditional knives, .
russian solider was not normaly issued a knife and had just to make do with was he could make,
i saw in dagestan several laminated wood handled kindjals from ww2, one had some slogan on the blade, . death or facshists or such, they were mostly small daggers. looking in the kindjals basic shape , but not quite.

also in the norht the soviets captured many wild nomads to fight the nazis.
they too thier woman and childern ad herds and collateral and they were forced to fights the finns and the nazis, , the normal practice was to leav them with only thier traditional axes and knvies till the nazis were near, and then the comissars woudl issue out the rifles and ammo :S :O . i understand in the kirealian area on several occasions the native folk, saami, komi and other nomads took the finns and germans on with knives and rocks :S when their "controlers" fled or retreated wihtouth releasing thier firearms,
beucase of this the "native preservation" act of stalins were effected after the war as the nomads nere then greatly short of men and had for osme years encountered the soviet system, after the war they were collectivised in large areas, destroying thier culture..
mostly these guys all carried long knives like the finnish puko, some in a wooden or bone sheath,

the russians seemed to, as did the germans like the shovels, and also axes were common amoungst the russians,


as for the soviet war deaths, i woudl say that much was not caused by the fighting, but by the cruel reprisals form both the soviets and the nazis,
the nazis would kill in any area all communist party members, all jews, all gypsys and all suspect folks, then they woudl deport the rest to work as slaves , the soviets used brutial patizan techniques against their own poeple and the nazis, and the germans woudl kill randomly 50 or 100 civilians for every death of thier own,
or starve out areas that were suspect, the nazis also kill enmass the captured soviet troops, some milions, .. sometimes in most sadistic fashion,
mostly starved shot or poisoned, shot for sport, fed to dogs, cooked and force fed to their fellow soliders, birried alive frozen, injected with petrol or bleach, hunted for sport on the camp grounds.. and lots of other, bazaar stuff. ,
the russians , althoguh not kind made no attempt to kill the nazi prisoners they had, but just worked them till they were dead form cold,
..
the soviets deported large numbers of suspect peoples or punished them ,
chechens, who wer eplanning to side with the nazis, kalmyks, volga germans, some 4 milion, , cossaks, russians , lithuanians, ukranians, ect ect.
soliders considered suspect, lots of poeple ended up in labor settelments,, , the gulag.
so i guess lots of shill killed all the 20 odd milion soviet folk who died,


as for the quality of the kit.. i think the russians gear was very shoddy, and mostly provided by them selves,
but suted to the environment,
i talked to an old german once who had fourght in lenningrad, i asked whad did the soviet troops have that you looked for , and he said big felt boots and sunflower seeds .:)
seems in winter these two were very handy,
the russian tanks were better becuase of the casting in the bodys, making them much stronger than germen tanks , even when they were thinner in plate,
also the suspention system and the use of forgings and castings instead of machined parts and plate like the germans ,

the semiauto guns of the russians werwe all good, and i would say could easerly out shoot the garand and were better battle rifles, but mostly clumsy. and they had poorly made magazines, thin metal...
other than these and the tanks the russian equiptment was poor i woudl say, but the soliders were desperate and were between a rock and a hard place, they also had lived in a pepetual state of fear and oppressrion 100s of years,, and were much more willing to die or endure famine, illness and other hardships than the average german,,


:) ,
now russian firms have been allowed to get loose of their soviet constriants and make a wide range of interesting and advanced products, however many are never sold , due to a lack of market, if they hade the same size of goverment contracts and the u.s. firms have you would , im shure have some very good machines,
one thing the russians have over most other nations is that they have skilled specialy trained weapons designers.
meaning a single individual can design a concept, tank, plain , gun , ect ect, not a commity, however they lack the$ to develop these thigns other than in small numbers and in reduced potential,
 
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