Knock Offs and what I am doing about it.......Part II

Looks like they might be stting themselves to fail. If the allege Mr. Kevin Tan can confirm his assertions of those being his original designs, and can prove without a shadow of a doubt that it was not inspired, directly or indirectly, by past posting of the original designs on this and other forums, it would be a miracle. The sheer number of design "matches" that originated from many differnt sources should be enough to let anyone see the pattern of "knocking off" perpertrated by Joy Enterprises.

However, to bolster Mike's case, he'll need to provide patents, trademark registrations, or other official filing. If this knock-off is to be stopped permanently, the sad truth is that every maker will now need to take those steps to protect their designs.
 
So Mike, what the hell is this idiot talking about. I would be willing to bet that you never told anyone that they were infringing on a patent since these knives probably don't have anything patentable.

So, the hundreds of people that walk around knifeshows taking pictures of knives and displays are breaking the rules? This is something I have never heard of before.

This all seems like a bunch of scare tactics to me.
 
Originally posted by Keith Montgomery
So, the hundreds of people that walk around knifeshows taking pictures of knives and displays are breaking the rules? This is something I have never heard of before.
Photography is prohibited at the SHOT Show unless permission is granted. That's the incident in the letter.
 
Thanks Tony. That makes sense actually. I am sure that there are a lot of companies that don't want pictures of their new model lineups to get out to the public before their official release. Could steal some thunder.
 
Okay,
He says that 21688 is the mini-Raptor.
Which knives are these?
TG002
TG004
G001
I have original drawings of the ones I did, Mike has dated pictures of all of the DOD knives(from back when the contest started), of which at least one is clearly visible in the picture. I'm not sure who Kevin Tan is, but it seems like he may be the Knock-Off artist here. Liong also has been having his Kerambits produced since long before Boss Knives was started,(there is even a pic in Blade magazine) and I'm sure that is documented.
 
monty were they knocking off yours or the knock offs that mike killed in place of yours.

i think what is happening is that the factory that provantus contracted with sold their knives to other inporters, so theya re being knocked off by their own factory.
 
Here is a copy of my respnse to her lawyer.

Mr. Bryan,

I will not even entertain a response to your letter as it is pure diatribe an a insult to both our collective intelligence. Your clients continued predilection for irrelevancy will not prevent me from pursuing her in her endeavor to steal my designs and those who design for BOSS knives. She is to discontinue the sale of products which infringe on my intellectual property rights and those of my designers effective immediately. I understand you are under an obligation to protect the best interests of your client. With that being the case advise her and remind her that she physically assaulted me on 2 occasions with a total of 7 witnesses watching. Once in Las Vegas as she through a book at me that I gave her as a peace offering and the other in Orlando when she came from behind her table and pushed me with force. I made certain that people watched in both incidents and she will remember me pointing to them during both incidents.

As for any of her outlandish allegations outlined in your letter I deny each and every one of them and challenge her to produce one reputable witness that is NOT in her employ.

I would venture a guess that she did not disclose either of these two incidents to you both, now did she?

Let's cut to the chase. She in no way can produce any FACTUAL evidence that Mr. Tan is the originator of the designs in question. To prove this simply talk to Mr. Tan and see if he is willing to show up in court with supporting evidence that he in fact created the designs in question. I can, and WILL, provide evidence that Liong Mah, Monty Fielding, David Winch, among others are in FACT the individuals who created the designs that Joy Enterprises is currently selling under the Fury brand. In fact I would venture a guess that Mrs. Shelton has never once stepped foot inside the very factory where these knives are made. I have, and I have seen the tooling and I know who made the tooling and the orders. Need proof? Check out the attached images and you will see images form the factory where her knives were made and who actually made them. She does not even know who made her knives as she probably deals through an agent and not the actual factory.


Now it would be in your clients best interest to drop any and all efforts she may have to defend herself, including any pending charges she has attempted to file against me, or I assure you it will be the most embarrassing situation she will have ever put herself or her company into.

I will make this offer and only once will this offer be made. If I receive a letter signed by all officers of Joy Enterprises that states they will discontinue the sale of all products that infringe on my designs and those who design for BOSS knives from this day forward and any and all designs for any other companies which I license designs for then I will adhere to the spirit of your letter and refrain from any contact with Mrs. Shelton and Joy Enterprises. Further, all images, text or any other reference to designs which are owned by BOSS in her catalog or any media which she uses to promote her or Joy's products must be removed, listed as discontinued or otherwise notified that these products are no longer for sale. All sales which have been made to date will be forgiven should this letter be received by Wednesday February 26th, 2003 or she can hand deliver the signed documents to me in Las Vegas. Should this letter not be in my hands by close of business March 6th then Joy will be responsible for damages as outlined by US law.

You claim in your letter that Mr. Tan's design of the Mini Raptor is enclosed. No such enclosure is found. I suggest you contact Mr. Tan for yourself and before you entertain defending his designs. You may want to verify you have a leg to stand on for yourself. If you are going strictly on the information supplied to you by your client, then I wish you good luck as it will make for a very interesting and enlightening day in court for you.

In your letter you reference patent law. Can you please advise me of any incident where I referenced any patent? Again you are listening to your client. As you may have already concluded I am very careful in my wording. I may be colorful at times and I may seem like a school yard bully but rest assure I have done my homework here and your client is in the wrong. You have the audacity to instruct me when your client is the one who is selling stolen designs? Here are my instructions for you and your client.

At any future shows, you are instructed as follows:

A. Your people will not come to the display booth operated by me or any company I work with.
B. Your company will not display or offer for sale any product which is considered a knock off of any design we market under the BOSS name or any future endeavor in which Mike Turber is involved..
C. You client is instructed to never physically or verbally abuse myself or anyone which is associated with my company
D. Any and all correspondence you send to me will be made immediately available to the public through any means I have at my disposal. The only way to avoid this will be to discontinue selling or offering for sale the items in question and to agree to never do so again.

Here are pics of the factory I mentioned in the letter to her lawyer.

www.wowinc.com/joy
 
Mike
i'd talked to a rep at Joy and guess want the said?
"Why don't your friends get a lawyer. we sell what the manufacuters make. we do not design them."

My guess that Mr. Tan IS surfing the net and bootlegging RDT and Liong Mah.

it truly make me sick that they would copy RDT and Liong.

Aaron


oh one more thing. i met Alex Shelton before. the she had sux :barf:
 
The best solution to this whole thing is simple...STOP buying ANYTHING knives or otherwise made in China!!!

Funding the enemy folks.
 
Mike,

Forgive me for being a skeptic, but this all seems very self-serving on your part. You were quiet as a mouse behind the scenes working WITH with these thieves, only now that your OWN designs are being ripped off are you coming out "to fight". For who? Seems like only Mike Turber.

You offered to liquidate the old knock-off inventories as a way of getting rid of them? How much $$ do you make off of that? If you were really into doing the right thing, why not just incinerate the blades? That would be ethical. You can't bend ethics -- they'll just break.

This seems like a lot of grandstanding and very little substance. You also appear to be the first human being to receive a letter from an attorney via email rather than on paper with letterhead, and you post that and your response for al to see. Either it's B.S., or you really need a lawyer to save you from yourself, dude. Not good practice to broadcast your legal battles if you want to keep an edge.

What's the deal here? This is my impression of things, and yes I am calling you out -- the noise factor here is very high compared to signal. Can you substantiate your actions as anything otherwise? We're all waiting to hear. Straight up, no bullsh*t, please.

~Brian.
 
Thank you Brian! I was wondering when anyone was finally gonna notice that the former king of clones was all of a sudden indignant at copycats. And selling the remaining clones in the warehouse sucks.

Mike-remember these promises you made?
There will never be a charge at BF.
BF will never be involved with a retail business in direct competition with their advertisers.
And of course the famous thread in w/c about that new pirate forum where you turned on Spark like a rabid dobie, and went to the extreme of posting private BF ownership details just to get your way.
Yes, you are a man of principle. When it suits you.
 
Brian,

You made valid point in your post but who I am fighting for is the people who design for BOSS. I guess I could through in the towel and give up but why? I never offered to liquidate any knives and I don't sell them. What I did say is that Provantus has decided to liquidate the knives so they can switch gears and follow a marketing plan I outlined for them. To date they have kept their word.

I received the letter via email, this is a fact. He also faxed a copy to Provantus. I doubt very seriously that I was or am the first to recieve a letter via email from a lawyer. Are you just poking for a fight? You won't find one here.

Lifter,

Rehashing old news is not going to happen either. We have all been through that crap before. Konck offs is news and what is being done about it is interesting to some people here. If not you then don't read it. Spark nows owns this site 100% not me or the other guy.

I am a man of principle and of course when it suits me. I live in the present and not the past. I made many decisions, some good, some not so good and some really bad. I have to live with them and if you have to rehash them then that would be your own problems and not mine anymore. Some people are side stepping the issue here.

The last confederate,

If you are thinking of boycotting China then good luck in your venture. Turn your keyboard and mouse over as you may be typing on something made there.

Boycotting China is not the answer, teaching them a new way to do business is and I am making a small step in that direction. Maybe it is all for not but we shall see.

Monty,
See ya in Vegas, call me when you come down.

lowlife,

That is exactly what they told me to. They don't make the knock offs, they just sell them. Heck I did too, so at one time I was a part of the problem. Am I granstanding now because I was knocked off? Is this poetic justice for me? Who knows, who cares. But like all news it makes for interesting reading.

Stay Tuned!
 
Actually, the responsibility of the forums charging for membership is mine - After I took over ownership, I instituted that policy to help recoup costs. I have no qualms about making that decision - it is the only reason this site is still open.

But if you are going to point fingers, point them in the right direction.

Kevin
 
I stand corrected on the paid memberships.
I stand by everything else I said.
Cloning was ok when you did it but now that you've "seen the light" we need to vigorously pursue these scoundrels.
Actually, I think stopping them is a good thing. It's just ironic that it has to be done by you.
Lifter out.
 
Some of the best crusaders of a cause are people that were once on the "other side". It seems those people often are more passionate about it than people that have never actually been on that side of the fence.

That being said, I've owned a number of knock-offs in my life so far. When you're a 10 yr old, you generally don't care who made the knife, where it's made, or anything else. It's a knife! That's all that matters. :) I still own at least a few of those. Do I use them? No. I use my Benchmades now. I won't buy a knock off these days, and I do agree that it's a problem. But I don't expect one person to try to represent the entire industry. I applaud Mike for what he's doing. Even one knock-off seller eliminated is a start.
 
Mike, since I joined BFC, you are the only person I've seen take such an aggressive stance on this situation.
I applaud your efforts. Hopefully, we will see more makers & retailors joining you in this fight.
 
Originally posted by Mike Turber
Boycotting China is not the answer, teaching them a new way to do business is and I am making a small step in that direction. Maybe it is all for not but we shall see.

Strangely enough, I agree... I think that the best way to "defeat" any potential enemy we have in China is through commerce. Teaching them new business techniques, and making things they have in demand. Put effort in to get high quality good coming out of China, put money into China for their goods, and slowly but surely we win. We gain power, China shifts some, and next thing you know, they arent a threat anymore. Yes, it will take a long time, and it will take more people like Mike to do it... but it can work.
Hey, everyone likes money... maybe they'll become capitalists and dump the communism crap.


I see no reason why someone cant have a change of heart. I think Mike has done that, and isnt just being "selectively ethical" here. We all make mistakes because we dont know better. If Mike didnt know better, he didnt know better... NOW, he apparently does know better, and is doing what he can to help stop the problem.
I, personally, dont see a problem with that. Let him deal with Master and Joy, and stop them, or do his damndest to stop them... I say its a good thing.

Mike, good for you! :) Give 'em hell.
 
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