Knock Offs and what I am doing about it.......Part II

Kieth think what you want...Crap is crap especially when made in the same factory wouldn't ya say...
 
Have any of you seen the "CRAP" we have made???

If not you are about to be VERY surprised.

I watched the Gerber Paraframe being made as well as many of my own knives. Guys if you are thinking the only "CRAP" comes out of China you are sadly mistaken. Also I have never met a better group of people EVER. Sure we have problems with the government but the people are absolutely some of the finest people I have ever met.
 
Hey Mike, if you see them copying my Model 16/18 or the Outdoor Edge Magna, put a boot up someones ass.
BTW, should we distinguish between mainland China and the Taiwan made knives? I'm assuming people understand the difference.
 
Originally posted by Kit Carson
BTW, should we distinguish between mainland China and the Taiwan made knives? I'm assuming people understand the difference.
Click to expand...
You would think they would, but, let's not take chances. Not an easy task, given Taiwan's past history as the knock-off factory.
 
Mike: It seems that people can change, no outburst at being challanged, not even rudeness. I am truly iimprissed. I am even led to ask about the Lile designs.

__quote____________________________________________
We started launching BOSS about 6 months ago. We bought the Lile name and we already had good knives with them. Tom Anderson was getting the run around with a previous arrangement he had and I was
instrumental in getting that worked out. It ain't perfect but it was a start. We had the BOSS Wolf Pup and the Lile #7.

Then we got designs from a factory in China that made really great quality stuff. I mean really damn good. So we decided to introduce some of their designs and we even had a contest here to help get even more designs. The DOD series, the Parasite, the Cheetah and the Kerambit were born as well as more Lile designs. Then a few months into the project I started getting wind of something fishy. As projected launching dates came and went with no knives I started to wonder what was wrong.
________________________________________end quote

Jimmy's widow says that she owns all of the Lile designs and that she has never sold or licenced any of them.

Did I misunderstand her? Is she wrong? Whats the deal? Sincerely, A. G.
 
I stumbled on this thread and felt my 2 pennys might be insightful.

My name is Tim and i'm an artist out of Michigan, some of you may know me by the nmae "The Sandman", that's how my work's signed.

Also, some of you may know me by my lawsuit I filed awhile back against BC Rich guitars. To cut to the chase, I drew (desgined) the BC Rich Warlock guitar SEVERAL years before it hit the market. Patent laws are quite comical...but very specific.

When the Warlock was released I was contacted by my attorney that we "should" have a case to file, so what the heck. Long story short, I was laughed out of the building (court). When you draw (design) something it MUST be fully documented, and fully dimensioned, an exacting blueprint if you will. In other words, BC Rich "probably" saw my drawing and used the design, but they were the ones who blueprinted and patented it.

In this case (joy enterprises) I have to say...forget it Mike, unless you have documented AND dated proof of the suspected stolen design you don't have a leg. And design patent laws are pretty loose, don't you think Henry Ford would have sued everyone who made an assembly line? What about paper company's? There's a million of 'em, just standard notbook paper "X" amount of lines, all the same design, no lawsuits.

I draw/design knives daily and have several thousands of my own designs BUT if I don't fully dimension them AND patent them they belong to anyone who "steals" them.

And some of you may not like this BUT, "copies" aren't always bad, from a sellers perspective. A customer may not be able to afford a $60.00 Gerber, but he'll buy the $10.00 China model. And YOU may not like it but the seller makes the money and pays his bills, "knock off" or not.

And has anyone mentioned Pakistan yet? They copy more knives than anyone I know.

As far as you giving the ladies at the show a hard time, shame on you. If you can't handle things on a professional level then you are what their lawyer said "schoolyard bully" and should be banned from attending ANY show. That kind of childish behavior is completely uncalled for aand i'm sure you'll get slapped with a slanderous and perhaps sexual harrassment suit. If my wife was doing an art show and someone like you came up to her with that attitude (and no proof) with nothing more than verabl assaults i'd sue your socks off. But then my guess is you only did it because it was a woamn. Yeah, yeah, I know what you're thinking, i'm an A$$, and that's fine, but matters such as yours cause for legal consulatation and NOT verabl (or physical) assaults. Let the lawyers handle it, that's why they're called lawyers.

And what this all boils down to (and this is sad) M.O.N.E.Y., it's what makes the world go 'round. "I WANT TO GET PAID". I'll be the 1st to admit it, print my picture without paying me and i'll sue...I won't call you, e-mail you, i'll call my Attorney and let him handle it.

Before I forget, didn't I read earlier that you did a million dollars a year in flea-market sales? And yet you post on a board with 213 members? Seems like if you had ANY recourse you'd be on a much larger scale, like CNN...

You're obviously small time, you don't have your own lawyer to write the respondent letter, you harrass their employees, you "need" the posters help...hmmm....I don't know Mike, sounds like you just want to stir the pot and make it appear that your a "good" guy, i'm not buying it, if you were anybody OR very big you wouldn't be on this board. Don't get me wrong, IF there's a cause to fight i'll be the 1st in line, but I won't follow someone who has no idea what he's doing and just wants to promote for himself by making someone else look bad, that's just...well, childish. Kinda like 2 guys at a bar, one insulting the other to make himself look good for the ladies. Those kind of people die alone...Not very professioanl partner.

And for the RECORD where's the documented (or patented) proof of design? I've seen no patent numbers on this board.

It's just my 2 pennys folks, my opinion, i'm entitled as you all are, some will agree, some will not, that's why we are called "individuals". But I think if I have to fight for a cause, it should be based on FACT, not the "Bush" method. Also, i'm NOT promoting my knife designs, I have an agent for that.

Thanx for listening.
 
Before I forget, didn't I read earlier that you did a million dollars a year in flea-market sales? And yet you
post on a board with 213 members? Seems like if you had ANY recourse you'd be on a much larger scale, like
CNN...

ZClone:

What 213 members?? This forum has over 16,000 members and almost one third of them have looked at this thread.

With thousands of knife designs you must be a big name in knives, why not tell us who you are?

A. G.
 
Actually AG thread views just shows how many times it's been looked at - not how many members in total have seen it. One person could view it 40 times or more and the count would increase. I think he meant 213 members online.
 
Yeah, what gives with the Lile knock-offs? That is what they are. I do not believe that anyone had the rights to the Lile name other than the current owner.
Greg
 
On February 24, 2003, a civil lawsuit was filed by Bob Shelton, Alex Shelton and Joy Enterprises against Mr. Turber. The case was filed in Palm Beach County, Florida, Circuit Court. The lawsuit refers to several designs by Mr. Tan and the design sheets are attached to the lawsuit as an Exhibit. The design sheets are not attached to this e mail as they are in JPEG format and I do not know how to attach them. Mr. Tan in fact did design the knife in question. This is a copy of the lawsuit. The copy was pasted into this reply and the format is slightly different from the official, filed version. It is, however, the exact text of the offical document.



CASE NO.: CL 03-
STEVEN B. SHELTON and
ALEX SHELTON & SHELL
STORE corporation d/b/a
JOY ENTERPRISES,

Plaintiffs,

v.

MICHAEL TURBER, Individually and
d/b/a BOSS KNIVES and
WORLD OF WEAPONS, INC., a dissolved Florida
corporation,

Defendants.
_____________________________/

COMPLAINT
Plaintiffs, STEVEN B. SHELTON, ALEX SHELTON and SHELL CORPORATION sue the Defendant, MICHAEL TURBER and other Defendants and alleges as follows:

1. This is an action for damages which exceed $15,000.
2. The Plaintiffs Steven B. Shelton and Alex Shelton, at all times material to the allegations in this lawsuit, resided in Palm Beach County, Florida.
3. The Defendant Michael Turber, at all times relevant to the allegations in this complaint, resided at Jacksonville, Florida and has his principal place of business at Jacksonville, Florida.
4. The Defendant Michael R. Turber is engaged in the business of selling cutlery doing business as Boss Knives and World of Weapons, Inc. (Hereinafter referred to as “WOW Inc”.)
5. The Defendant WOW Inc. is a corporation which was dissolved by the State of Florida in 1999. The State of Florida lists WOW Inc as an INACTIVE Corporation since 1999. Its principal place of business was and, despite being dissolved and inactive, is claimed to be in Jacksonville, Florida. The only listed former officer and director of the dissolved and inactive corporation is the Defendant Michael Turber.
6. The Plaintiff Shell Corporation d/b/a Joy Enterprises (hereinafter referred to as “Joy Enterprises”) is engaged in the business of selling cutlery and other products throughout the United States and world wide, with its primary place of business being in Palm Beach County, Florida. Joy Enterprises has been engaged in this business for more than 40 years.
7. The Plaintiff Alex Shelton and the Plaintiff Steven B.Shelton are officers of Joy Enterprises and owners of the stock of Joy Enterprises.
8. Venue is proper in Palm Beach County, Florida, because the libelous statements were published in Palm Beach County, Florida.
9. Prior to the incidents and libelous statements set forth in this complaint, all of the Plaintiffs had excellent reputations and enjoyed the respect of other owners of businesses in the knife community, and further enjoyed excellent reputations and the respect of customers in the knife industry, as well as, the Plaintiffs’ associates in the community at large.
10. Joy Enterprises became involved in the knife industry in approximately 1960. A major aspect of Joy Enterprises’ business marketing takes place at trade shows in various places throughout the United States. Over the many years Joy Enterprises has been involved in the knife industry, and as the result of the experience gained in that industry, Joy Enterprises, Alex Shelton and Steven B.Shelton, prior to the acts, conduct and statements of the Defendants, had earned and obtained a good opinion of all of the Plaintiffs’ associates, customers and others to whom the Plaintiffs where known.
11. On or about February 15, 2003, Joy Enterprises was at a knife industry trade show known as the “Shot” Show in Orlando, Florida and was represented there by the Plaintiff Alex Shelton and a female marketing director. At the “Shot” show, Michael Turber and an associate who is allegedly involved with Defendant Boss Knives and/or Defendant WOW Inc. threatened and insulted Plaintiff Alex Shelton and the other female employee of Joy Enterprises and made improper sexually harassing comments and gestures. At the Shot show, Defendant Michael Turber and the other representative of Defendant Boss Knives and Defendant WOW Inc. wrongfully and improperly stated that Joy Enterprises violated U.S. laws by selling knives which were “knock offs”.
Specifically, Defendant Michael Turber and/or Alton James as a representative of Defendant Boss Knives and/or Defendant WOW Inc. incorrectly asserted that Joy Enterprises had improperly copied the design of the Defendants’ knife model #21688. This statement was false at the time it was made.

12. On February 20, 2003, at 12:35 a.m., the Defendant Michael Turber individually and on behalf of BOSS KNIVES and WOW, Inc. called the Plaintiffs and left a threatening message advising the Plaintiffs that they were going to “start feeling the wrath of the heat from my wrath” and making other threatening statements. In the same message, Defendant Turber threatened the Plaintiffs with harassment and with defamation and slander unless the Plaintiffs “...get rid of your inventory”, which constitutes extortion under the Florida Criminal Laws.
13. On or about February 20, 2003, at 12:31 a.m. GMT, the Defendant Michael Turber individually and on behalf of BOSS KNIVES and WOW, Inc., followed through with the extortion threats and began posting defamatory statements on an internet message board with an internet address of www.bladeforums.com.
14. Specifically, at approximately 3:16 a.m. GMT on February 20, 2003, the Defendant Michael Turber individually and on behalf of BOSS KNIVES and WOW, Inc., posted the following statements on the internet board referred to above:
“Alex Shelton of Joy Enterprises shown here trying to quickly remove knock offs of the Boss line before I could take the picture PROVING she was selling them. Say cheese Alex! The knock off queen was caught red handed.”

Defendant Turber, acting individually and on behalf of the other

Defendants then posted a name, address and telephone number of Joy

Enterprises.


15. At approximately 5:01 a.m. GMT on February 20, 2003, the Defendant Michael Turber, acting on his own behalf and on behalf of the other Defendants, posted the following statement on the internet website referred to above:
“Give them hell guys. They are ripping off your firends, the very people who you look up to here and work hard for a buck only to have them steal it.
Yes. Alex and Bob at Joy Enterprises are THEIVES!....I got more tricks up my sleeve and you can bet your ass that the ASD show coming up will be even more fun as BOTH will be there and so will I.” (Spelling errors are a direct quotation of the original statement)

16. On February 22, 2003, at 5:46 a.m. GMT, the Defendant Michael Turber acting on his own behalf and on behalf of the other Defendants, posted the following statement on the internet website referred to above, in reference to Plaintiffs Joy Enterprises and Alex Shelton, “...She in no way can produce any FACTUAL evidence that Mr. Tan is the originator of the designs in question...” in reference to Plaintiffs’ knives designated as “TG002", “TG003", “TG004" and “G001". This statement was either intentionally false or was made with a total lack of due care as to whether the statement was true or false. A copy of Mr. Tan’s four designs referred to are attached hereto as composite Exhibit A, demonstrating the falsity of the Defendants’ statements.
17. On February 22, 2003, at 5:46 a.m. GMT, the Defendant Michael Turber acting on his own behalf and on behalf of the other Defendants, stated on the web site referred to above that Plaintiff Alex Shelton had “...an endeavor to steal my designs and those who design for BOSS knives.” This statement too was either intentionally false or was made with a total lack of due care as to whether the statement was true or false. A copy of Mr. Tan’s four designs referred to are attached hereto as composite Exhibit A, demonstrating the falsity of the Defendants’ statements.
18. As of February 24, 2003, the false and libelous defamatory statements made by Defendant Michael Turber on the internet message board had been viewed more than 4,600 times.
19. Michael Turber made these false and libelous defamatory statements individually and on behalf of WOW Inc. and on behalf of BOSS KNIVES.
20. The above statements were false and defamatory. The Defendants in making these false statements acted in a negligent manner and without due care as to whether such statements were true or false. The false and defamatory statements, after being published by the Defendants, were circulated far and wide to Plaintiffs’ business associates, customers, acquaintances, perspective customers and others.
21. The Defendants published the defamatory matter on the internet with actual malice and with wrongful and willful intent to injure the Plaintiffs both personally and in the conduct of their business and as a direct and proximate result of the false statements, Plaintiffs have lost business and has been seriously injured in name, fame, reputation and business.
22. Plaintiffs reserve the right to amend and assert a claim for positive damages against all of the Defendants upon a factual showing that the statements alleged above were in fact made.
WHEREFORE, Plaintiffs demand judgment against the Defendants for damages, together with cost of suit and such further relief as the court deems proper.
Plaintiffs demand trial by jury.
SCOTT, HARRIS, BRYAN
BARRA & JORGENSEN, P.A.
Attorneys for Plaintiffs
4400 PGA Blvd., Ste. 800
Palm Beach Gardens, Florida 33410
Telephone No.: (561) 624-3900
Facsimile No.: (561) 624-3533



_____________________________
John L. Bryan, Esq.
Florida Bar No.: 179250
 
it is a shame that you had to join us under these circumstances.

Could you have Joy supply us with pictures from their Catologue the knievs that were designed by Mr Tan?

From the pictures that Mike Turber has posted there are some knives that are NOT designed by Mr Tan. There are some Products shown in the pictures that mike has posted that i do not know the designer of, they could be Mr. Tan's designs.

But If Mr Tan is claiming all of the designs in question he is a liar and a theif just as mike has alledged.
 
#9 must be a joke right?

Anyone here have a good relationship with Joy Enterprises, or even HEAR of Joy Enterprises before this happened? Not saying that that means too much, but if you dont hear about something in the knife world here, they are either trying to keep quiet or are too small to show up. Wonder which one.:rolleyes:

Just did a quick search and found out exactly who Joy Enterprises is: they make Fury


Interesting too that the lawyers decide to show up here.
 
It's lawyer speak to make the queen of knockoffs sound like she is not a knockoff queen.Hopefully the judge is a knife collector and makes all of the stand in the corner for tattling and having temper tantrums.How many of those cheap pieces of crap would she have to sell to make 15,000 dollars.I am going to call this just what it is.A big phucking joke. Two people dealing in knockoffs that cant stand each other and want the other one gone.What would be best is if they both would go away............R (edited to change spelling)
 
John Bryan assured me that Joy Enterprises does not knock-off others work knowingly.

I'm sure they have him convinced of that. He seems a decnt guy, actually, and believes in his client. However, all my sources tell me they are just as bad as the others.

Let's hope these knock-off companies take each other down with the infighting. Save the rest of the industry a lot of work.

Best,

Brian.
 
I stumbled on this thread and felt my 2 pennys might be insightful.

My name is Tim and i'm an artist out of Michigan, some of you may know me by the nmae "The Sandman", that's how my work's signed.

Also, some of you may know me by my lawsuit I filed awhile back against BC Rich guitars. To cut to the chase, I drew (desgined) the BC Rich Warlock guitar SEVERAL years before it hit the market. Patent laws are quite comical...but very specific.

When the Warlock was released I was contacted by my attorney that we "should" have a case to file, so what the heck. Long story short, I was laughed out of the building (court). When you draw (design) something it MUST be fully documented, and fully dimensioned, an exacting blueprint if you will. In other words, BC Rich "probably" saw my drawing and used the design, but they were the ones who blueprinted and patented it.

In this case (joy enterprises) I have to say...forget it Mike, unless you have documented AND dated proof of the suspected stolen design you don't have a leg. And design patent laws are pretty loose, don't you think Henry Ford would have sued everyone who made an assembly line? What about paper company's? There's a million of 'em, just standard notbook paper "X" amount of lines, all the same design, no lawsuits.

I draw/design knives daily and have several thousands of my own designs BUT if I don't fully dimension them AND patent them they belong to anyone who "steals" them.

And some of you may not like this BUT, "copies" aren't always bad, from a sellers perspective. A customer may not be able to afford a $60.00 Gerber, but he'll buy the $10.00 China model. And YOU may not like it but the seller makes the money and pays his bills, "knock off" or not.

And has anyone mentioned Pakistan yet? They copy more knives than anyone I know.

As far as you giving the ladies at the show a hard time, shame on you. If you can't handle things on a professional level then you are what their lawyer said "schoolyard bully" and should be banned from attending ANY show. That kind of childish behavior is completely uncalled for aand i'm sure you'll get slapped with a slanderous and perhaps sexual harrassment suit. If my wife was doing an art show and someone like you came up to her with that attitude (and no proof) with nothing more than verabl assaults i'd sue your socks off. But then my guess is you only did it because it was a woamn. Yeah, yeah, I know what you're thinking, i'm an A$$, and that's fine, but matters such as yours cause for legal consulatation and NOT verabl (or physical) assaults. Let the lawyers handle it, that's why they're called lawyers.

And what this all boils down to (and this is sad) M.O.N.E.Y., it's what makes the world go 'round. "I WANT TO GET PAID". I'll be the 1st to admit it, print my picture without paying me and i'll sue...I won't call you, e-mail you, i'll call my Attorney and let him handle it.

Before I forget, didn't I read earlier that you did a million dollars a year in flea-market sales? And yet you post on a board with 213 members? Seems like if you had ANY recourse you'd be on a much larger scale, like CNN...

You're obviously small time, you don't have your own lawyer to write the respondent letter, you harrass their employees, you "need" the posters help...hmmm....I don't know Mike, sounds like you just want to stir the pot and make it appear that your a "good" guy, i'm not buying it, if you were anybody OR very big you wouldn't be on this board. Don't get me wrong, IF there's a cause to fight i'll be the 1st in line, but I won't follow someone who has no idea what he's doing and just wants to promote for himself by making someone else look bad, that's just...well, childish. Kinda like 2 guys at a bar, one insulting the other to make himself look good for the ladies. Those kind of people die alone...Not very professioanl partner.

And for the RECORD where's the documented (or patented) proof of design? I've seen no patent numbers on this board.

It's just my 2 pennys folks, my opinion, i'm entitled as you all are, some will agree, some will not, that's why we are called "individuals". But I think if I have to fight for a cause, it should be based on FACT, not the "Bush" method. Also, i'm NOT promoting my knife designs, I have an agent for that.

Thanx for listening.
 
originally posted by mschwoeb:

Interesting too that the lawyers decide to show up here.
Click to expand...

I would say bizzare!

Whatever really happened between these folks - one thing is clear, Mr. T conducted himself in a manner (by his own statement) that seems like the kind of stuff that happens in barrooms off lonely highways rather than one of the more readily identified knife shows in America.

Mike's basic claim that his goal is helping get high-quality cutlery made in mainland China onto our shores so that we can buy tactical blades for $20 instead of $50 - $60 a pop is heartwarming in its apparent altruism. But we all know that the singular reason for searching out very cheap labor is to reduce cost of goods so that we can increase market share and profits for the manufacturer - period. That there might be a side benefit of consumers getting less expensive merchandise - is about reason #7 on the list. Lower costs are about beating out your competition, plain and simple.

There have been many threads on "knives made in mainland China - buy them or no" on these forums. I am ambivalent on the issue. I am not interested in buying $20 tactical knives - I am certain that other are. I know that I benefit from buying clothes made in SouthEast Asia - so I have already bought into the concept in that regard.

That the bizzare scenario of BOSS/Provantus/Dragon Forge/WOW Inc./Joy Enterprises/Fury, etc., etc. is being played out this website is just amazing to me. It is an ugly scene of bottom feeders competing to control who gets to use the cheap laborers assembled at a particular knife factory that is tooled up and ready to go.

Yikes. :barf:

edited for spelling.
 
John Bryan- joy without a doubt knocks off knives is the argument going to be they are not theives just ignorant?

Although it is on a different level do you think that courts would let me off if i said "i just moved the money i didnt know it was counterfit"

If all of these alleged BOSS knock offs are Tan designs then Tan is a knock off designer, i know some of the designers and i dont think they decided on a collective name change to Mr Tan.

John Bryan You should sugesst that Joy move away from knock offs it is not hard to design original knives i am sure many here inclueding myself could fill a catologue in a day. Now i wouldnt work for Joy since they have a reputation for not paying their bills, but i am sure you already knew that.
 
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