Kreins on Busses

[Ban]

I agree with Cobalt.

Jerry has no idea if the guys who did the regrind did it slowly and carefully to make sure they didn't stuff up the temper or just went flying in like a bull in a china shop so when they decide to chop down the local street sign to show what their reground FFBM can do they snap it in half and cause Jerry to honor his warranty.

Not that I disagree with Busse's Excellent Warranty.....I happen to think it is very reasonable in regards to mods done outside the shop.

If a knife snaps in half while chopping then there is a defect in the blade. Unless ground ridiculous thin, a blade should not snap even if the temper was ruined. A blade will snap if there are hairline cracks in a defective piece of steel. It can also snap if heat treated too hard and not drawn down to a working hardness during tempering (heat treat issue).

A knife's ideal hardness is decreased if heated beyond it's max tempering temperature (approximately 900-950 degrees for INFI in this case). Anything above that 950 range and the RC will start to drop. A softer piece of steel wouldn't hold and edge or cut very well....but it may very well be tougher in terms of taking shock and impact.

 

[Stephen Tolar]

I've got a meaner that Tom thinned out for me. He also talked me into a cool swedge that I love! I'll try to get some pics up tonight.

 

[Tony G]

I wish that these guys that modify the knives would somehow put their mark on them. The problem is that these knives get resold a few times and the story turns into “The work was done at the shop” or “there were no after market Mods done that I know of”.

It really should be mandatory that the knife is marked so that Busse (or any maker) doesn’t get stuck with a knife to fix three or four years from now because the tip was thinned and broke off. Or that knives breaking because of modifications start to affect the makers trade marks.

That is just “fair business” and it strikes me as kind of sleazy that the modifiers of the blades don’t take ownership of the work down the road a bit.

Now to avoid ten guys saying that they stand by their work; I’m sure you do, but when I get a knife three trades/sales later how do I know that you did it?
.

 

[randucci]

I wish that these guys that modify the knives would somehow put their mark on them. The problem is that these knives get resold a few times and the story turns into “The work was done at the shop” or “there were no after market Mods done that I know of”.

It really should be mandatory that the knife is marked so that Busse (or any maker) doesn’t get stuck with a knife to fix three or four years from now because the tip was thinned and broke off. Or that knives breaking because of modifications start to affect the makers trade marks.

That is just “fair business” and it strikes me as kind of sleazy that the modifiers of the blades don’t take ownership of the work down the road a bit.

Now to avoid ten guys saying that they stand by their work; I’m sure you do, but when I get a knife three trades/sales later how do I know that you did it?
.

Oh, you will know if it was done by Grinducci! But maybe I'll come up with something, don't know what though.


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[Tony G]

Oh, you will know if it was done by Grinducci!

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Now there is something to fear
.

 

[Ban]

I wish that these guys that modify the knives would somehow put their mark on them. The problem is that these knives get resold a few times and the story turns into “The work was done at the shop” or “there were no after market Mods done that I know of”.

This would really be a issue of honesty with the seller! See last comment for easy solution.

It really should be mandatory that the knife is marked so that Busse (or any maker) doesn’t get stuck with a knife to fix three or four years from now because the tip was thinned and broke off. Or that knives breaking because of modifications start to affect the makers trade marks.

Putting a mark is not a bad idea. A manufacturer should know if the work is done in house and can use their own judgement for warranty related issues. I am sure that manufacturer's can easily tell their work apart from that of others. If not then....the knife would obviously get covered under warranty. I suspect that these cases would be very rare

That is just “fair business” and it strikes me as kind of sleazy that the modifiers of the blades don’t take ownership of the work down the road a bit.

I think this is ridiculous!!! Please expand on this! How is it that modifiers out there don't take ownership?

Now to avoid ten guys saying that they stand by their work; I’m sure you do, but when I get a knife three trades/sales later how do I know that you did it?
.

The solution for this is real simple. When in doubt... don't buy the knife in question!

 

[Last Visible Canary]

Now to avoid ten guys saying that they stand by their work; I’m sure you do, but when I get a knife three trades/sales later how do I know that you did it?
.

it's honestly not a bad idea, and if I ever do it again I'll put my squid mark on it. as far as unmarked modifications, the busse forum has enough old hands who are daily visitors that a lot of smaller random mods can be matched up to past forumites and posts they put up.

and you can always ask the busse shop. they do certain mods, and don't do others. likewise, they have an idea of what a hollow grind will look like when its done by them.

 

[Stephen Tolar]

I wish that these guys that modify the knives would somehow put their mark on them. The problem is that these knives get resold a few times and the story turns into “The work was done at the shop” or “there were no after market Mods done that I know of”.

I don't think any reputable maker would put thier mark on a knife designed and made by another maker. I'd be like they were taking credit for someone else's design and work. I understand your issue but it really is up to the owner to represent the product correctly in any future sell.

Stephen

 

[Tony G]

Originally Posted by Tony G
I wish that these guys that modify the knives would somehow put their mark on them. The problem is that these knives get resold a few times and the story turns into “The work was done at the shop” or “there were no after market Mods done that I know of”.

This would really be a issue of honesty with the seller!
Maybe maybe not, the first second or third seller…. or the surviving spouse? Or the guy that got one off eBay because it looked cool but really knows nothing about the knife and then sells it.

It really should be mandatory that the knife is marked so that Busse (or any maker) doesn’t get stuck with a knife to fix three or four years from now because the tip was thinned and broke off. Or that knives breaking because of modifications start to affect the makers trade marks.

Putting a mark is not a bad idea. A manufacturer should know if the work is done in house and can use their own judgement for warranty related issues. I am sure that manufacturer's can easily tell their work apart from that of others. If not then....the knife would obviously get covered under warranty. I suspect that these cases would be very rare

The problem wouldn't be that the maker can't tell but that the owner at the time can't tell. For example... I have this knife marked "Ban" and it breaks so I send it to you and you say hey that isn't my work. I get pissed because it has your mark on it -only your mark- but really GrindTony had worked on it but never marked it. So I go post all over the knife forums that my Ban knife busted and Ban won't fix it, when really GrindTony should be the guy on the hook. But GrindTony never gets any warranty calls because he never marks his work.


That is just “fair business” and it strikes me as kind of sleazy that the modifiers of the blades don’t take ownership of the work down the road a bit.

I think this is ridiculous!!! Please expand on this! How is it that modifiers out there don't take ownership?

Without a mark how the heck would anyone know you did the work? After the first few owners it is kind of like graffiti art in that if the next owner has a problem with the work he can’t find the artist to have it fixed. I find the lack of foresight to consider that owners would need to find the person responsible for the work an oddly shortsighted business practice. It is, in fact, ridiculous not to understand that. You can be willing to fix your work from now until dooms day but if down the road no one can figure out you did the work you aren't going to get many calls... right?




Now to avoid ten guys saying that they stand by their work; I’m sure you do, but when I get a knife three trades/sales later how do I know that you did it?

The solution for this is real simple. When in doubt... don't buy the knife in question!

That is a solution that I follow but it isn't me that has to fix the knife some day, this isn't about me. What I wonder about is what the solution might be for the maker that has knives out there with only his mark on them that he really isn't responsible for?

 

[Tony G]

I don't think any reputable maker would put thier mark on a knife designed and made by another maker. I'd be like they were taking credit for someone else's design and work. I understand your issue but it really is up to the owner to represent the product correctly in any future sell.

Stephen

They wouldn't replace the mark but just add a very small one.

 

[resinguy]

I have just sent a knife to Ban for a regrind. In the (highly unlikely) event that it breaks on me at some future time, I accept that I will be SOL.

But I can see that if this knife were to trade hands several times, and a future buyer does not know it's provenance, he will be pissed when Jerry declines to warranty what is obviously not their shop work. Even if Ban were to mark it, is it reasonable to expect him (Ban) to warranty against future breakage? I don't think so. The risk/reward ratio would direct him to sell his grinder and go fishing instead.

hmmm, tough question.

 

[Tony G]

I have just sent a knife to Ban for a regrind. In the (highly unlikely) event that it breaks on me at some future time, I accept that I will be SOL.

But I can see that if this knife were to trade hands several times, and a future buyer does not know it's provenance, he will be pissed when Jerry declines to warranty what is obviously not their shop work. Even if Ban were to mark it, is it reasonable to expect him (Ban) to warranty against future breakage? I don't think so. The risk/reward ratio would direct him to sell his grinder and go fishing instead.

hmmm, tough question.

It isn't a queston of the modification being under warranty. That is up to the knife's owner and the guy doing the work at the time the work is done. In your case between you and Ban.

But if the knife has a mark then it is clear so that if I buy it three transactions down the road I will know that Busse isn't the company to go back to with issues about the blade. I'll ask Ban and then Ban can do what he wants about it. He'll be the one to make a decision as to if doing the work for free is worth improving the value of his mark or not.

 

[Ban]

Originally Posted by Tony G
I wish that these guys that modify the knives would somehow put their mark on them. The problem is that these knives get resold a few times and the story turns into “The work was done at the shop” or “there were no after market Mods done that I know of”.

This would really be a issue of honesty with the seller!
Maybe maybe not, the first second or third seller…. or the surviving spouse? Or the guy that got one off eBay because it looked cool but really knows nothing about the knife and then sells it.

Ignorance is not an excuse. If they are not sure then they need to be upfront about that. Again.... When in doubt just don't buy the knife in question.

It really should be mandatory that the knife is marked so that Busse (or any maker) doesn’t get stuck with a knife to fix three or four years from now because the tip was thinned and broke off. Or that knives breaking because of modifications start to affect the makers trade marks.

Putting a mark is not a bad idea. A manufacturer should know if the work is done in house and can use their own judgement for warranty related issues. I am sure that manufacturer's can easily tell their work apart from that of others. If not then....the knife would obviously get covered under warranty. I suspect that these cases would be very rare

The problem wouldn't be that the maker can't tell but that the owner at the time can't tell. For example... I have this knife marked "Ban" and it breaks so I send it to you and you say hey that isn't my work. I get pissed because it has your mark on it -only your mark- but really GrindTony had worked on it but never marked it. So I go post all over the knife forums that my Ban knife busted and Ban won't fix it, when really GrindTony should be the guy on the hook. But GrindTony never gets any warranty calls because he never marks his work.

I think that most reasonable people would be able to tell a stock knife from a modified one. Especially coated ones. But since you want to look at this from the perspective of a buyer then.... again When in doubt don't buy it!


That is just “fair business” and it strikes me as kind of sleazy that the modifiers of the blades don’t take ownership of the work down the road a bit.

I think this is ridiculous!!! Please expand on this! How is it that modifiers out there don't take ownership?

Without a mark how the heck would anyone know you did the work? After the first few owners it is kind of like graffiti art in that if the next owner has a problem with the work he can’t find the artist to have it fixed. I find the lack of foresight to consider that owners would need to find the person responsible for the work an oddly shortsighted business practice. It is, in fact, ridiculous not to understand that. You can be willing to fix your work from now until dooms day but if down the road no one can figure out you did the work you aren't going to get many calls... right?

First of all most people that want to modify their knives outside of the manufacturer are aware that this will void the warranty. If not then this needs to be made clear to them. So right from the get go the warranty is already void once any modification is done. Once the warranty is void is it really reasonable to ask the person doing the work to replace the knife should anything happen to it down the road? This is especially true if the original owner wanted a knife super thin and is aware that it is a highly specialized tool. For example...Tom Krein does mods to folders with super thin edges. The original owners all know that this will void their warranty but wanted to do it anyway because they understand that it will be a specialized highly efficient cutter. Marked or Not... is it reasonable to ask TK to replace the knife should a ignorant 2nd or 3rd buyer comes along and chips or rolls the edge?




Now to avoid ten guys saying that they stand by their work; I’m sure you do, but when I get a knife three trades/sales later how do I know that you did it?

The solution for this is real simple. When in doubt... don't buy the knife in question!

That is a solution that I follow but it isn't me that has to fix the knife some day, this isn't about me. What I wonder about is what the solution might be for the maker that has knives out there with only his mark on them that he really isn't responsible for?

Are we trying to find a solution to a problem in the knife industry? Is it even a problem?

 

[Ban]

It isn't a queston of the modification being under warranty. That is up to the knife's owner and the guy doing the work at the time the work is done. In your case between you and Ban.

But if the knife has a mark then it is clear so that if I buy it three transactions down the road I will know that Busse isn't the company to go back to with issues about the blade. I'll ask Ban and then Ban can do what he wants about it. He'll be the one to make a decision as to if doing the work for free is worth improving the value of his mark or not.

We both know that the warranty is already void when the work starts. So what is the issue? Should he sell the knife down the road... it is up him to be honest about it being modified. It is also up to the new owner to ask questions and be informed that he is buying a knife that is no longer under warranty.

Even if there is a mark.... What happens when the new owner or subsequent owners decide to pull a Noss4 and do destructive testing and breaks a perfectly functional knife? Would it be reasonable to ask the artist to replace the knife because it has his mark?

 

[Tony G]

We both know that the warranty is already void when the work starts. So what is the issue? Should he sell the knife down the road... it is up him to be honest about it being modified. It is also up to the new owner to ask questions and be informed that he is buying a knife that is no longer under warranty.

Even if there is a mark.... What happens when the new owner or subsequent owners decide to pull a Noss4 and do destructive testing and breaks a perfectly functional knife? Would it be reasonable to ask the artist to replace the knife because it has his mark?

Ban,

I hope what I said was clear.

If some nut job breaks a knife you had worked on then when it comes back to you, you can say hey that is not my problem, or you can fix it... it would be your mark so it is your call.

But the nut job should be calling you not the maker of the knife. If you mark the knife and it ends up at the maker because the nut job wants the maker's warranty the maker can say "Hey nut job call Ban because we didn't work on this knife." Without your mark then the maker has to say.... "Well should I fix it anyway to protect my mark?"

It just doesn't seem equitable to me that the maker has to even consider that.

Does this happen a lot? I have no idea.
.

 

[Cobalt]

Man, this thread has turned into a big issue.

First off I don't think there is any reason for a modifier to put his mark on a knife. Any knife that is heavily modded, will be quite noticeable and you can say no to buying it. The DucciWarden is obviously a perfect example as is the Ban FBM. They are both heavily modded. While I believe that both of these guys know not to overheat steel, it is still a warranty issue and I have no problem with Busse not warrantying the work.

However, I had Justin at Ranger knives work on two 8" Pure Bred Fighters for me. All he did was remove the coating and give them an awesome convex edge. In my opinion, this is not a serious modification as there was no major amounts of metal removed from the blade. So this should be warrantied.

I own an SH-E that had the rear Talon removed and the tang made flush with the micarta handle. I love that as it gives the most knife for it's overal length. In fact I want to do those mods to my other BM-E's. Even though this is a major mod, it was done in the tang of the knife. Since there was no grinding near the edge or main part of the blade, I have no problem with this mod and any failure would have happened with or without that mod.

Also, as the owner of the knife, if you do not trust the work, you can always have an Rc test done to the knife to verify it's integrity.

If a knife was overheated, what will happen is that the Rc will have dropped, making it softer and then it will not hold an edge and it will not sharpen easily either as you cannot get rid of a bur due to to much softened metal.

 

[Tom Krein]

I wish that these guys that modify the knives would somehow put their mark on them. The problem is that these knives get resold a few times and the story turns into “The work was done at the shop” or “there were no after market Mods done that I know of”.

It really should be mandatory that the knife is marked so that Busse (or any maker) doesn’t get stuck with a knife to fix three or four years from now because the tip was thinned and broke off. Or that knives breaking because of modifications start to affect the makers trade marks.

That is just “fair business” and it strikes me as kind of sleazy that the modifiers of the blades don’t take ownership of the work down the road a bit.




Now to avoid ten guys saying that they stand by their work; I’m sure you do, but when I get a knife three trades/sales later how do I know that you did it?
.

Since my name was mentioned in the first post on this thread can I assume that you think I am sleazy?? WTF??

I gotta say I am a bit pissed off right now. Did you think prior to posting that??

You think I should put my Krein Knives logo on a Busse knife??? Surely not! I don't think that would be ethical for sure!!

I thin knives down at customer request. They are made to cut. I guarantee I know how to grind a blade so that it does not over heat while regrinding it! I am not a hobby maker, I do it full time! This is how I make my living. Do you think I would have much work if the temper was ruined on my knives or my rework??

I can tell you that these knives are not safe queens after I do my work. THEY ARE GETTING USED!! Don't you think that the word would be out if there were ANY problems?? Try and find someone who has had a problem with one of my regrinds! They aren't out there!!



So, the ball is back in your court. Do you have a helpful suggestion or are you just gonna sling mud?? I don't have a problem marking my work, but I sure as hell am not going to put my Krein Knives logo on other makers work that I have reground.



Tom

 

[idahoskunk]

that does it... i'm sending my grinder back




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[Cobalt]

Since my name was mentioned in the first post on this thread can I assume that you think I am sleazy?? WTF??

I gotta say I am a bit pissed off right now. Did you think prior to posting that??

You think I should put my Krein Knives logo on a Busse knife??? Surely not! I don't think that would be ethical for sure!!

I thin knives down at customer request. They are made to cut. I guarantee I know how to grind a blade so that it does not over heat while regrinding it! I am not a hobby maker, I do it full time! This is how I make my living. Do you think I would have much work if the temper was ruined on my knives or my rework??

I can tell you that these knives are not safe queens after I do my work. THEY ARE GETTING USED!! Don't you think that the word would be out if there were ANY problems?? Try and find someone who has had a problem with one of my regrinds! They aren't out there!!



So, the ball is back in your court. Do you have a helpful suggestion or are you just gonna sling mud?? I don't have a problem marking my work, but I sure as hell am not going to put my Krein Knives logo on other makers work that I have reground.



Tom

Tom, your work is awesome, so calm down or I will send her after you

 

[idahoskunk]