- Joined
- Dec 7, 2019
- Messages
- 3,488
Right now, I’m eyeing the Plain Jane Bowie. Simple and elegant.
-
The BladeForums.com 2024 Traditional Knife is ready to order! See this thread for details: https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/bladeforums-2024-traditional-knife.2003187/
Price is $300 ea (shipped within CONUS). If you live outside the US, I will contact you after your order for extra shipping charges.
Order here: https://www.bladeforums.com/help/2024-traditional/ - Order as many as you like, we have plenty.
Kukri Question
- Thread starter JimRockford
- Start date
Kailash Blades
Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider
- Joined
- Nov 21, 2015
- Messages
- 1,024
No worries at all! People tend to focus a lot less on steel and geometry and I think that's definitely a good thing. In the broader knife world of fad steels and trendy grinds people often lose focus of what's important- that the knives do the job they're meant to do. With this said I feel like Nepali bladesmithing could benefit a lot from taking a step back and refocusing on these fundamentals a bit.
Out of the two I'd strongly suggest the HSI over the MSI. The difference in balance, cutting efficiency and feel is really night and day. Have you looked into the Pensioner? it's kind of like a HSI on steroids. A bit bigger and more powerful but still has quite a versatile and light balance. I've seen it described as a "military feel" and that sounds right. Fast enough to fight but powerful enough for great wood processing etc.
If you're looking for any more info just hit me up.
Take care,
Andrew
Kailash Blades
Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider
- Joined
- Nov 21, 2015
- Messages
- 1,024
It's no worries at all. Metallurgy is really one of those things were the more you learn the more you realise you don't understand. It can very quickly end up being a very deep well once you dive in!Kailash Blades ; Andrew, thank you so much for all your insight and time. First let me clear up the point that it's not that I'm not in to metallurgy. I'd love to know all there is to know about it.
......
You mentioned that the ek chirra comes with a full tang as an option. I'm a bit surprised that all these knives don't come with a full tang. Wouldn't that be necessary for strength?
......
BTW, I noticed the COVID-19 notice on your site. How far out is delivery time right now?
Rat tail tangs have a pretty bad reputation in the west for being fragile, however that's primarily due to them being present on a lot of very cheap and mass produced knives. The tang on our khukuris start very wide with rounded shoulders, then tapers down slowly as it gets closer to the back of the blade. Both these features help to disperse stresses evenly and make our handles very, very tough. Are they as tough as out full tang blades? No, but they also offer a more traditional and unique feel in hand. They're tough enough to handle this kind of work though so I don't have any qualms about recommending them to just about everyone. We run lifetime warranties on our blades so we need to build them smart and strong.
Right now the turnaround time is looking at being 10-12 weeks. However we're expecting some news to come in about whether that is going to extend or not at the start of may. Confirmed case numbers are still very low in Nepal, but the government keeps finding clusters every couple of days and until that trend stops I'm unsure that work stoppages will lift.
Take care,
Andrew
razorburn
Gold Member
- Joined
- Mar 26, 2007
- Messages
- 2,435
Andrew, I have considered the Pensioner.I don't want an excessively thick or heavy kukri.Don't intend on chopping and processing wood with mine but more something more lively and can do light to moderate chopping of woods but also a fighter.I still have yet to fully explore your site.
- Joined
- Apr 23, 2020
- Messages
- 20
I did last night, and I'm already planning a purchase. Maybe two.
Unfortunately it looks like they're shut down for a while and it will probably be fall or later before delivery, but hey, it'll still be awesome then. You know, D DangerZone98 , I'm torn. On one hand I totally agree. Go with the standard length which allows for the correct thickness, width, dimensions, etc. It's tried, true, proven, and darn historical. Rosewood is beautiful, but I think I would go for the long life Micarta handle, Kydex sheath, and then there's the question about finish. Personally I think the satin is beautiful, but does acid wash make more sense? As for grind, I'm thinking heavy duty.
Then on the other hand, based on what Andrew said above, with pretty much all the same options, there is something about that Pensioner that is just plain sexy. I do wonder about the weight of the bigger blade. Going with a rat-tail tang might help. Thoughts?
Kailash Blades
, Andrew thanks again for all your time. The more I read, the more impressed I am with your company. As far as comfort, how does the Micarta compare to the stacked rubber? Also, that was a GREAT video. The over and under comparison pic in the video of the Pensioner to the Scourge let me know that the Scourge really isn't what I'm looking for, so that was great. Do you have a comparison pic of the Pensioner to the Historical Service Issue?- Joined
- Dec 7, 2019
- Messages
- 3,488
I did last night, and I'm already planning a purchase. Maybe two.
You know, D DangerZone98 , I'm torn. On one hand I totally agree. Go with the standard length which allows for the correct thickness, width, dimensions, etc. It's tried, true, proven, and darn historical. Rosewood is beautiful, but I think I would go for the long life Micarta handle, Kydex sheath, and then there's the question about finish. Personally I think the satin is beautiful, but does acid wash make more sense? As for grind, I'm thinking heavy duty.
Then on the other hand, based on what Andrew said above, with pretty much all the same options, there is something about that Pensioner that is just plain sexy. I do wonder about the weight of the bigger blade. Going with a rat-tail tang might help. Thoughts?
Can only offer you my two cents’ worth, man. I suppose if you gotta choose, it really boils down to which style you prefer and what use you have in mind? A khukuri in the 11”-15” range would be an excellent chopper, clearing vegetation and batoning through wood no problem. If I recall correctly, it is an important agricultural tool in Nepal, so there’s definitely no question about the khuk’s reliability.
A Plain Jane on the other hand, for me, is probably the better multi-purpose knive. It has a flat edge towards the ricasso and an elegant curve towards the tip. I can make feather sticks and skin game relatively more easily with the Plain Jane (although these tasks would probably be easier with a smaller knife like the Hotspur I guess). Plus, sometimes you don’t feel like lugging around a 13” blade when a 8.5” blade will do, especially for long hikes.
In sum, whichever you choose, I don’t think you’ll regret your choice, man.
Just my opinion, but I actually prefer the balance of full tang khuks despite the additional ounces lol. Makes it easier and “more predictable,” if that makes any sense, to swing the beast around.
cbach8tw
Gold Member
- Joined
- Jan 9, 2006
- Messages
- 12,165
I know a kukri can split logs if needed, but after watching the above video it seemed very cumbersome to do that, at least for those size logs. would an ax be better for that job? I would think the chopping would be more for thick branches, clearing away brush, and gathering manageable sized pieces of wood for a fire, and sheltering building. I can also see why a kukri would be a very handle tool for a farmer also to make repairs on wooden equipment, etc. I am not saying that they cannot do such work, but for a woods bumming tool for the gentleman, would an 8 or 9 inch be more appropriate or do you lose effectiveness under 12 inches? Just curious, I have always wanted a villager model as I like the uitilitaian look more than a mirror/shiny finish.
- Joined
- May 17, 2019
- Messages
- 80
It all comes down to preference and the "mission" ahead with what you pack.
BHOJPURE is what you want!!!
Wow, 2 edits
Last edited:
Kailash Blades
Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider
- Joined
- Nov 21, 2015
- Messages
- 1,024
For the kind of splitting that AKB is doing in that video I don't think anyone would say that an axe or logsplitter wouldn't be a better choice. Thing about khukuris is they can handle that kind of work while also being able to do so many tasks that an axe just can't. I think the size of the logs shown in that video are chosen for entertainment value and comedic effect- nobody is relying on a 13" rat tail khukuri to go through a huge round like that. They do a much better job with smaller wood. However, the point stands that they still do manage it. 9" khukuris can be quite useful and handy but they do really lack chopping power and have a lot more overlap in utility with bowies than with hatchets.
A few things I can offer a bit of guidance on here.
Pensioner weight: We make khukuris across a very wide range of balances and sizes. While the 13" pensioner is more powerful and larger than the 11.5" Historical Service Issue, it's still of quite a moderate balance within our lineup. I think it's lively enough in balance and weight to be a fighter, but also has the heft required to chop really well and excel at wood processing. The Ek Chirra would sit partway between the pensioner and the HSI. The fullering keeps it very trim so the extra length doesn't really hamper the liveliness. The extra length still helps with brush clearing and chopping though.
Something that's worth keeping in mind is that when we say one of our blades is heavier it's in comparison to the rest of the knives we sell. In the grand scheme of khukuris available for sale, our pensioner is much more lively and lighter than a similar blade from KHHI, EGKH or Himalayan Imports. Our weights and balances are close to that of Tora as a reference. Unfortunately I can't find any images with both a pensioner and a HSI in it.
razorburn
it's hard for me to get a gauge of what you'd consider light without knowing the kind of khukuri experience you already have. If you tell me a little more I can give you some personalised suggestions Rat Tail Tang vs Full tang: Rat tail tangs do reduce the overall weight of a blade, but they also produce a more aggressive forward balance because the weight is cut at the back of the handle. As D DangerZone98 has mentioned, on khukuris that are larger and thicker this can sometimes be too pronounced and lead to a feeling of reduced control. This is a particular issue with modern blades that have spine thicknesses or bevels thicker than a lot of older rat tail blades had. Our traditional blades are usually quite light and lean so we taper our full tangs and drill them to maintain a traditional balance as best we can. On some larger customs though we'll often spec an untapered full tang or a plate pommel for counterweight, but this isn't a typical feature of nepali blade culture. We can do a full tang on any of our blades upon request by email, we just have to process it as a custom instead of through the website.
Options info:
Kydex vs western leather sheath- I personally prefer a western leather sheath for a hard working blade as they're very simple, feel a bit more solid and are quieter. Kydex is fully weatherproof though, more versatile and reduced carry weight. Carry options and retention for both of them are the same as standard so they're quite similar really and both great options.
Blade Finish- Satin is a great working finish and is easy to bring a blade back to after it gets dinged and scratched up. The acid wash is a bit more bling out of the box and has better corrosion resistance. It's harder to maintain the hamon clarity with use, but it's a great foundation for a solid patina that you earn over time. As it leaves, a whole bunch of dings and scratches arrive that tell a story and are beautiful too.
Grind- When thinking about these grinds worth noting that Nepali blades in general are all ground tanky as hell. Our standard grind is leaner than most other blades in the country but still makes western blades look like ballerinas. Unless you're particularly keen on the idea of an unconditional warranty (if the blade breaks at all from any activity then we'll replace it) like you get with the Heavy Duty grind, I'd say you would benefit from going leaner. Have a look at the info and warranty here https://kailashblades.com/warranty-and-factory-seconds/ then I'd suggest finding the roughest application you would be likely to use the knife for then choose the leanest grind that covers it. You'll thank yourself for the increased cutting efficiency later on.
Handle material- The stacked leather is buffalo leather and as a result it's a little harder than what you might have encountered on a kabar etc. With this said though it is the best at absorbing handle vibrations and also is pretty grippy. The Micarta is even grippier wet or dry though and is completely bombproof. With proper khukuri chopping technique harsh vibrations through chopping can be reduced a lot also.
Take care,
Andrew and the team at Kailash
- Joined
- May 2, 2020
- Messages
- 2
Great thread and so much information! I was hoping to ask the OP a question. I came across this thread when doing a search for reviews on the knife you mentioned at Doug Marcadia's site but couldn't find much. Did you buy one or choose something else?
- Joined
- Apr 23, 2020
- Messages
- 20
I had the same problem, but it turned out to be a mixed blessing. I originally considered Doug's knife because I knew I was no guru. I expected to pay a bit more because of the name, but I was okay with that because my thought process was that Doug is well respected and therefore since his livelihood is built around his online persona and expertise I felt like he wouldn't put his name on substandard equipment, but even when I contacted his offices (before coming here) I couldn't get answers. I tried sending a message on his website, but no one contacted me back. Then I called. The first time I called it sounded like someone answered and then hung up, so I called right back. That time it sounded like the call forwarded to cell phone that was answered by a kid/teenager on the other end of the line. I'm guessing it was one of the kids that models his stuff on his website; maybe his son, but I really don't know. I got short answers that were basically what you see on our site is what we have and we know. When I made that call I was ready to buy and was interested in other things as well. Don't get me wrong, I didn't expect to speak to Doug, but the phones are answered, "The Business of Doug Marcaida" so I did expect to talk to someone knowledgeable. In truth when I called someone knowledgeable could have sold me 2 of everything because I was ready to buy. Instead I just hung up flustered. Don't get me wrong. I still have a very high opinion of Doug, his knowledge and his abilities. It's just hard to hire good help now days I suppose.
All that said, the hidden blessing was that it helped me find this place. I fully plan to buy 2 knives from Kailash as soon as their COVID restrictions are lifted, though I'm still trying to make my final choices. In the meantime to learn a bit more before my order, I bought the Condor knife
fishface5
posted as it was very close to the same size handle and overall length to Doug's knife. Right out of the box it did make me understand and appreciate more of what Andrew said and what is posted on Kailash's site about default sizes, balance, etc. It was delivered with very little edge, however. I mean literally I was in no danger of cutting myself or anything else. LOLSorry I can't help more on Doug's knives, but give Kailash every consideration. As for specific questions, the community here is awesome.
Best of luck.
fishface5
Gold Member
- Joined
- Feb 3, 2001
- Messages
- 9,543
Man that was a fun video! And after all these great posts by Kailash I see one of those in my future!
J JimRockford let us know what your friend thinks of that Condor!
J JimRockford let us know what your friend thinks of that Condor!
- Joined
- May 2, 2020
- Messages
- 2
Thanks for the info. Sounds like you got further than I did. I never even got to a live person when I tried to contact them. I guess its just the world we live in now. That Condor does look nice.
- Joined
- Apr 23, 2020
- Messages
- 20
fishface5
, I actually purchased this one to further my knowledge until I can order one from Kailash, but I may give this one to him anyway. While most people don't keep legal sized paper around for their printers anymore, this knife will just fit diagonally on a page. I found that out as I was tracing it to send a pdf to a friend. The balance point is just slightly behind the back of the grind and about 1/2" forward of the handle.It does feel heavy in my hand, or moreso than the knives we used in edged weapon classes weighing in at:
1 lb 6.75 oz/22.75 oz/645 grams
For some comparisons:
The Scourge: https://kailashblades.com/product/scourge/
1 lb 10.5 oz/26.5 oz/750 grams
The Regent: https://kailashblades.com/product/regent-khukuri/
1 lb 9.4 oz/25.4 oz/720 grams
The Angkhola 13": https://kailashblades.com/product/angkhola-ek-chirra/
1 lb 5 oz/21.16 oz/600 grams
The Pensioner: https://kailashblades.com/product/pensioner/
1 lb 4.5 oz/20.45 oz/580 grams
Knife from Doug's site: (just since we were talking about it)
1 lb 2/3 oz/18.13 oz/514 grams
Historical Service Issue 11.5" : https://kailashblades.com/product/historical-service-issue/
1 lb .7 oz/16.75 oz/475 grams
Ordering the Condor was very helpful as a benchmark. I can now see that weight wise it's between the Angkhola and the Regent. Also I now have a new appreciation for Andrew's comments on the site about how even though you can order different lengths, there something to be said for staying with the traditional sizes for balance, etc. While those big knives sure are pretty, I can see why the HSI is the standard.
As I mentioned earlier, the Condor came with virtually no sharp edge at all. I did draw it through a sharpener several times and put some edge on it. I plan to drive it like I stole it later to help me better understand what I might want to order from Kailash for both of us later. Now that I have one to play with, I figure I'll get my buddy to work with me on it. That way I can find out more of what he would like when I order his. Thanks for the lead on the Condor and all the other insight as well.
- Joined
- Apr 23, 2020
- Messages
- 20
That is something I would truly like to learn to do correctly. Don't get wrong. I'm not inept with tools in the least. It's lacking in the knowledge of the correct angles of the grind, etc. I actually have some experience in custom jewelry as well and access to a custom jewelry shop where we have several grinders used for sharpening gravers and other tools. So it's more of knowing if there is a correct direction and pattern? What is the proper grit, belt speed and even belt width? Yes, I can be a bit of a perfectionist. Also when it comes to tools, I'm not 18 anymore. When I was a kid it was give me a torch, an arc welder and a hammer and we'll make it work. Today I'm more about whatever the job is, I want to use the right tool for the job.
Sorry. Not sure where all of that came from.
This Condor might just turn out to be a greater learning project than I thought. For now I just drew it through the Rada sharpener on the bench a few times which helped greatly as I wasn't sure if different parts of the blade took a different angle of grind since they have different jobs.
fishface5
Gold Member
- Joined
- Feb 3, 2001
- Messages
- 9,543
Well as someone once posted, "it's a kukri not a piano." It's not a precision instrument, so you can just go at it with a 200 grit belt - again, with a light touch and dipping in water - and then go up in grit as desired. I would say for now keep an even angle across th whole blade & then decide after using if you want to thin the edge shoulders of the tip and near the handle, but keep the belly sturdy if it will be used for chopping.
- Joined
- Apr 23, 2020
- Messages
- 20
LMAO Okay. That one really did make me laugh out loud. Point taken.
Harbor Freight, here I come.
Kailash Blades
Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider
- Joined
- Nov 21, 2015
- Messages
- 1,024
Ordering the Condor was very helpful as a benchmark. I can now see that weight wise it's between the Angkhola and the Regent. Also I now have a new appreciation for Andrew's comments on the site about how even though you can order different lengths, there something to be said for staying with the traditional sizes for balance, etc. While those big knives sure are pretty, I can see why the HSI is the standard.
Sorry for the lack of a reply guys, for some reason I stopped getting notifications from this thread! I think you'll have a great time with the condor and it'll be a great stepping off point for greater knowledge of the bladeform.
Some points about your previous replies- It's definitely wise to stick with traditional lengths a lot of the time, especially when someone doesn't have a reserve of khukuri experience to draw from. Many people want a bigger longer blade, but don't know what that will do to the balance. The profile or pattern of a traditional blade is optimised for a specific weight and a specific use. If you're a stronger person or are looking to nudge that use to something a bit more handy or a bit more powerful, an alternative length is a great way to do it.
Another point regarding judging khukuris by blade length and weight etc- A big difference between most western khukuris vs a well made Nepalese piece is that the vast majority of western blades don't feature any distal taper. There's a saying "you can build a knife like a sword, but never build a sword like a knife" which is in reference to the importance of distal taper in larger blades. Khukuris exist at the midpoint between a sword and a knife in some ways, which is part of why many makers struggle to understand them or execute them with confidence.
Better stress distribution is one bonus, but of particular note here is that it can lead to a blade which has a similar overall weight and profile but because of weight distribution, the untapered blade has a much more clunky forward heavy balance. An example of this is the 13" becker reinhardt kukri, which a customer recently brought up as a comparison when looking to buy with us as she thought it was two hefty and she wasn't strong enough for 13" blades. I looked up some specs and while it does have quite thin stock (5mmish) it did seem pretty heavy for it's pattern which to me was a sign of a lack of distal taper and grind work. This makes sense as most factory made knives are stamped or waterjet from flat stock then have their bevels ground in. For reference our pensioner is only 0.25" shorter but has a 20% thicker spine and is much, much broader. With our fullering, grindwork and distal taper it comes out to be 100g lighter and in the hand it has a great commanding balance which is both quick but powerful when you do commit to a full swing. The reason I bring this up is that you can only tell so much about how a blade will handle by it's weight. Seeing length and profile helps but distal taper is the real secret spice of weight distribution and balance.
Take care,
Andrew and the team at Kailash