Large Regular Sebenza Review

Man, after reading all these posts, I need to go find something to CUT....actually USE my knife....maybe Mr. Stamp would consider doing the same.... :)

I find that actually USING a knife, whether it be " flicked open " or not, leads to a better appreciation for what it can and cannot do, as opposed to all these "What if" scenarios that some people put their knives thru. Don't get me wrong, I agree that testing is important to know how any given knife will hold up in the field, but even THAT can be over analyzed and beat to death!

I wonder if Cavemen used to worry about how their crudely fashioned tools would hold up under constant flicking? NO, they just wanted them to do what they were made to do, namely a TASK!

Just my humble, uneducated 2 cents worth. :footinmou
 
Well that is just a semantics issue, the above clearly states that Reeve doesn't recommend flicking a Sebenza and that it will shorten the lifetime of the knife significantly. On the other hand other makers say the exact opposite, which contradicts Reeves statement significantly as *all* knives are not like that. Of course if you want you can debate was "is" is, but the above states pretty clear English for anyone who wants to read it.

-Cliff
 
Concerning Emerson knives, I remember their earlier problems with QC, but they were a relatively new company. However, I haven't heard a lot of negative comments in the past two years concerning Emerson quality. As a matter of fact, in the last year I've seen two Emersons that are now more than a few years old, in pockets, still being waved and flicked open. Their owners (knife and gun dealers) say it's the one knife they own that isn't for sale. They believe their Emerson's are great for utility, self defense and ruggedness. The ability to flick the knife open is a design feature they wouldn't part with.
 
Wow...I can't beleive how long this thread has become. I don't think the two sides are ever going to come to an understanding. Cliff seems to beleive that a warranty has some direct effect on the quality of a knife. Personally I think that is absurd. The quality of a knife and the quality of the warranty are two seperate issues. When viewed as a package you can make judgments from one to another (eg: Benchmade knife and warranty vs. CRK knife and warranty) but that still does not effect the quality of the knife. All I can say is that I've owned a knife from just about every production company out there (at least all the big ones) and a bunch of custom knives. After all of that the only production knife I still care to own is a Sebenza. I think it is the best made folding knife you can get without getting into a custom. Could the whole package be made better with a no fault warranty, absolutely. Does it bother me that it isn't, not a bit. I don't flick any of my knives anyway but if I did I would flick my Sebenza if I wanted too and not worry about it.
 
brownshoe said:
Concerning Emerson knives, I remember their earlier problems with QC, but they were a relatively new company. However, I haven't heard a lot of negative comments in the past two years concerning Emerson quality. As a matter of fact, in the last year I've seen two Emersons that are now more than a few years old, in pockets, still being waved and flicked open. Their owners (knife and gun dealers) say it's the one knife they own that isn't for sale. They believe their Emerson's are great for utility, self defense and ruggedness. The ability to flick the knife open is a design feature they wouldn't part with.

Well, since I'm a long time member of the other forum, I probably shouldn't be badmouthing Emersons, even production Emersons, but, I can't help it, the last Emerson production knives I examined, about a year ago, were brand new, in a display case, at a popular local knife shop, they had just arrived in fact, sparkling new and factory fresh if I ever saw it, and, all 3, that's 3 out of 3, had defective locks. One, engaged literally ALL the way over to the right hand scale, another, when engaged, had massive vertical play and was so bad, it boggles the mind how it got by QC, the last one, wouldn't engage the blade at ALL. Now, I'm no mathematician, but, that seems like a 100% defect rate to me. And, unfortunately, this is relatively consistant with my experiences with other production Emersons over the last few years, so, it was not a coincidence, not that it could have been anyway, 3 different new knives, 3 different, but equally serious lock defects. Maybe they have tightened up in the last year, I dont know.

So, sure, its easy, don't you think, for a knife like that to claim flicking won't throw its lock or mechanism out of spec, which granted, becomes very hard to do, if the knife was never IN spec. And, these are examples of the knives you are relying on to assert the Sebenza is fragile and inferior? Again, the logic, and truth of the matter, is laughable, not to mention, intellectually dishonest.

BS--- You may not like the Sebenza for any number of reasons, it's ugly, (to you), the handle ergos, tip up/down debate, blade finish, whatever, but, your relentless bashing of the quality and reliablity of them, hanging your hat on the only objective thing you can, namely the flicking/warrantee issue, and the inferences you are eager to draw about the Sebenza's strength, which in turn is based on believing, erroniously mind you, that some other knives, like production Emersons are capable of handling abuse the Sebenza is not, simply because you believe that a company claiming flicking won't damage their knife, is the same thing as that company's knife actually NOT being damaged over time by flicking, well, it makes it apparent to me, and obviously lots of others, that you don't like CRK and are bent on hurting their reputation at all costs, it apparently bothers you so many people love them, while you do not, and you are going to try to make people dislike them, even if you have to use deception to do it, because, the truth is, you don't play fair, do you, you take Emerson at their word, that their production knives are designed to be flicked and withstand it better than CRK, which, as per my above response, is a fool's assertion, yet, you will not admit anything that might cast a positive light on a Chris Reeve product.

Cliff I think, is at least intellectually honest, even if I think his reasoning is flawed.
 
Well, i like to put my €.02 in. :D

I hadn´t read aveything the past 5 pages, but guess the question goes around:

Better a great warranty on a maybe bad knife or better the more reputated knife?

@megabolyte

you are talking from the experienced knife users point of view.

And you are definatly right. In many cases you see: Better products have an average warranty. Because you will in most cases not need it.

Or, as one Benchmade forumite had said, inbetween two weeks you know if the knife is right or not.

Many new things come with great warranty to make it easier to the consumer to buy it. It is less risk if it is crap.

A better warranty supports the new to knifes user in getting used to his knife and gettting all the benefits a good knife has to offer.

It is a contradiction for the unexperienced, if a great knife has a small warranty. He wont use it until he get so bored of it, that he doen´t care anymore. Saying: From that moment, he is not much interested in that knife, he starts using it at its top performance.

As long as opinions about knife use, misuse, abuse are varying so much, a manufacturer should think about giving his products a warranty, that fits to the expected use and performance.

What was quoted by CR said, he doesn´t warrant wear. He said, a thing, used often and much will change, will wear. I found this to be the way of live, the longer i live the more i grow old. :D

Considering flicking that means if you flick it so much, that it wears, it is to be expected.

But if you flick it once and it damages, that is not wear. And that should be covered.

So all together:

A good product is a good product. As long as new, a great warranty helps to get experienced to it. A great warranty wont make a bad thin good. But limits the risk of buying it.

A warranty, that fits the product helps selling it, expecially on the knife market where so many hypes are blown around.

Busse Combat and Swamp Rat are examples of manufacturers that give full warranty. And i guess, they don´t replace much. (OK, we will se how it changes on the Rat Trap :D )

So i suport Cliffs statements as long as they are a try to get better conditions, conditions, that fit to a quality knife.
 
Whoa megaman that was about a 200 word sentence. Take a chill pill man, it's only a steel and titanium sandwich not motherhood and apple pie. :)Remember what Frank Zappa said..."brownshoes don't make it." I am not a one man conspiracy against the great CRK. I just dislike hype, pseudo science, self-appointed knife sheriffs and bad advice.
 
slide13 said:
Cliff seems to beleive that a warranty has some direct effect on the quality of a knife.
No, I have stated that :

1) the warrenty is a point of superiority itself for reasons as noted in the above

2) Reeve has stated the design is inferior, see above and contrast with other makers who have said to go ahead and flick their knives

Now of course if you have used the other knives from Mayo, Ralph etc., and they have been damaged or worn out quickly by flicking then by all means point out the hype.

This was a real problem a few years ago, maybe still is today, but it was trivial then to get high end customs that would basically fall apart after just a few flicks which is where the "abuse" notion started.

And again, this is a just one issue when comparing knives for hard use in general, there are lots of other issues with the lock, steel, geometry and ergonomics.

-Cliff
 
Cliff,

Why oh why do you incessantly create and attempt to spread dogma.
) Reeve has stated the design is inferior, see above and contrast with other makers who have said to go ahead and flick their knives
Show me where Reeve stated anything of the sort. There has been only implication by yourself and others based on your own conjecture. ("see above and contrast with other makers who have said to go ahead and flick their knives") There has been no direct comment, statement or otherwise where Reeve has said anything of the sort. You're putting words in Reeve's mouth. Anne mentioned in her post that flicking was essentially frowned upon. I can understand why too. If he were running a company that was importing parts from Asia at very low cost, he could afford to replace a few knives due to abuse. However, he is running a company that creates what are essentially handmade knives at extremely low profit margins. He can't afford to replace knives that have been carelessly mistreated.
 
Well to me flicking isn't an issue. Chris would never state that his product is inferior. Cliff I think your comments are slanderous but you bring up a good point about flicking not being the only reason to buy a folder. It would be silly IMO to buy a folder only because the maker says it can be flicked infinately and will be replaced free. In my situation, I have a right thumb that doesn't work very well due to reasons that I won't discuss here. Secondary to that I'm mostly left handed. That cuts me out of 99% (not a scientifically derived number mind you but my estimation) of the folder market. I believe that CRK is the only "production" company that will regularly put out a left hand knife (dedicated frame lock). That I appreciate. My only other option is a custom knife and I do have a decent variety of those. But for my purposes CRK products seem to fit me well. Any concern that I have had with any of Chris's products have been promptly addressed to my full satisfaction. That's why I will continue to patronize CRK. ;)
 
The Sebenza is a superb knife.

Am I qualified to offer an opinion? Well I bought three in the end and the first time I saw the specs and price of the Sebi I thought it was way overpriced and simply not worth the money. Then I was lucky to use one for a couple of months (Nemo's personal knife) and bought one as a result!

At this point, if I was one of the brainwashed Sebi lovers who hype them up and do this for fear of admiting that it is nothing special I would have not bought any more and would have remained silent on the issue.

Well here I am, I own quite a few knives, have tested many, have worked with several knife companies and custom makers and I think I am at last in a position to offer an opinion with some weight.

Its a flipping great knife with very few flaws, its strong and a great cutting tool. The fit and finish are second to none. Flicking is in my opinion a childish and dangerous act of bravado that makes a person look like a... idiot when done in public. Its a flourish intended to scare and impress those who know little. At the very least a flick opening makes the certaintly of a lock engaging in doubt, not to mention the lack of control as a result.

These things set aside, flicking will damage all knives full stop, no question. Opening and closing will damage a knife, if by damage we mean wear it out at some point. Flicking puts more stress on any knife. Some have a warranty which cover such wear. These companies are aiming their products at certain people. Chris Reeve makes an honest product and the fact that he is honest that flicking is hard on knives is simply him being honest. I think the market a Reeve folder applies to is slightly different to that of an Emerson or Strider. For the record I own a Strider AR Tac, ask Sal what he thought of this weighty folding pry bar! :) Fit and finish are TERRIBLE!!!!! The Emerson folders I have seen were poorly made and had issues to be sure. I have seen quite a few as well. The custom models seem very well made and I would be very happy with such a knife, but the normal production knives? Without a close inspection? No thanks.

I can buy a Sebi, anywhere and be 99.9% certain it will be a safe and secure knife that I can trust my life to. I feel the same way about other makers and if I am honest the Strider is very strong and secure, then again so are my Spyderco and other knives. I am wandering off topic now, but I find the Sebi bashing from certain quarters quite dissapointing to be frank.

Just my humble opinion.
 
DCK said:
Show me where Reeve stated anything of the sort.
From the above post, Reeve clearly states that flicking will shorten the lifetime of the Sebenza and thus it is not recommended. From posts by other makers they have stated that their knives are built to take flicking.

Thus Reeves statement is a clear indication of an inferior design (in that regard specifically of course as noted in the above) as one product handles the stress better thus it is superior by defination of the word. This of course makes the other one inferior.

[now you could argue here that all of the makes who make such claims are hype and that no such blades exist in spite of the fact that the makers do it in public, users have reported doing it and are encouraged to do it - but that is a pretty stretching arguement]


Now Reeve goes on to say is that all knives will be so similarly worn out - however this is in direct opposition to the statements made by other makers, lots of their posts can be seen on bladeforums.

As a really trivial example I can think of one class of folding knives which are not only built to take flicking, it is actually part of their intended use, ie. its how almost everyone uses them and they flick them open fast and hard, and do it a *LOT*.

It isn't even debately that these folders are *MANY* times over more capable of flicking than a Sebenza, and in general have one of the strongest and most secure locks on the market. They are also one of the oldest lock types.

Bali's of course, which are greatly superior to a Sebenza in many respects, as is an Olfa knife, Opinel, etc., as noted in the above, again for the specific tasks mentioned.

The word inferior isn't some huge black stain. All knives are pretty much inferior to any other knife in some aspects. The Sebenza is a vastly inferior design to a SAK for a tremendous amount of wood / camp / survival work. A SAK is vastly inferior to an Olfa knife for most craft work. An Opinel is vastly superior to the Olfa knife for kitchen work.

In the previous this superiority/inferiority was in both materials and design at times.

-Cliff
 
Cliff Stamp said:
From the above post, Reeve clearly states that flicking will shorten the lifetime of the Sebenza and thus it is not recommended. From posts by other makers they have stated that their knives are built to take flicking.

Thus Reeves statement is a clear indication of an inferior design (in that regard specifically of course as noted in the above) as one product handles the stress better thus it is superior by defination of the word. This of course makes the other one inferior.

[now you could argue here that all of the makes who make such claims are hype and that no such blades exist in spite of the fact that the makers do it in public, users have reported doing it and are encouraged to do it - but that is a pretty stretching arguement]


Now Reeve goes on to say is that all knives will be so similarly worn out - however this is in direct opposition to the statements made by other makers, lots of their posts can be seen on bladeforums.

-Cliff

As a former US President said: There you go again!

At least now you are accurately repeating what CRK has said. The conclusions you arrive at are what I still find faulty.

The argument isn't about how much hype other makers put out but rather how much experience they have making knives and where they come to knife making from. Reeve has many years experience making and designing knives and he comes from a background where he learned tool and die making and worked in that trade for many years. When Reeve tells me something about tool making and machines, I know he knows what he's talking about and I listen. The same goes for Ron Lake. There are others too. The concept that slinging the blade on a folder open puts a lot of wear on a knife mechanism is also borne out by my having made a bunch of folder myself.

There are a lot of people making knives with much less experience in tool making and engineering. I've picked up knives at shows and thought, "This must be a joke!" If those Makers offer me an unlimited warranty, it wouldn't mean much to me. When they say "It can take it" I hope to myself I can put it back down before it falls apart! I'm sure there are knives indeed "made to take it" but there is also the consideration, "made by who?" As a poster has already noted, even Strider is no longer covering "I took my knife apart and now it's broke!" syndrome.

Further, the knives that are "made to take it" will wear out faster if they have to "take it" every evening for 5 hours of steadly blade slinging than they will wear out if opened with less force. A butcher knife is made to be used in a slaughter house. If it is in fact used in a slaughter house for 8 hours a day it will wear out faster than the same knife used in the home for a half hour to make dinner. What's hard to understand about that? Drive your car everyday at max. RPM and the motor will wear out faster than if you don't.

If your point of contention is that you want a knife where the warranty will cover whatever type wear happens to the knife, that's fine. Reeve (and a lot of other makers) don't cover wear and tear. Knives wear out if used! The more use and the nature of that use determine how long they last. I have never needed the warranty on my Sebenza, but I have full confidence that should I ever have a problem, CRK will be fair and correct. Same goes for Spyderco and many others. I'd evealuate not just the warranty, but who's making it as well.

I'd be interested to see how many of these makers with "unlimited" warranties will keep giving you new knives after you keep tearing them up. :-)

Forgot to mention: I don't say the Sebenza is the best folder ever made or the perfect knife for everything, etc etc. Certainly it is, as you say, inferior to a SAK for the things a SAK can do better. I dismantled half of my car dashboard a fews ago with a SAK because I was too lazy to go into the shop and get the right screwdriver! A Sebenza would have been crap for that job! There are a lot of excellent knives out there.
 
This has gone on soooooooooooo long, that I went back to rediscover what the issues are.

1) "It is inferior because there are lots of knives that can take such use [flipping], thus it is inferior to them in this respect. ... This is of course only one aspect of the knife." Cliff Stamp.

2) I believe that Cliff has also stated that the warranty of the Sebenza is inferior to other folders as respects warranting against the effects of flipping. There seems to be some truth to this contention, assuming equality in administration of warranty claims (as to which there may be question).

I suggest that the latter is not evidence of the former. KIA has a warranty that is far superior to that of Honda or Toyota, but no expert finds KIA to be a superior product. Nissan recently upped its warranties as a marketing response to the scandal over hiding dangerous defects - nothing whatsoever to do with product quality.


Calmly now, what evidence do we have that some locking folders are superior -- or inferior -- to the Sebenza as respects dealing with/resisting flipping? Warranties do not count as such evidence.


If there are superior products in that regard, why are they superior?
 
Thomas Linton said:
Calmly now, what evidence do we have that some locking folders are superior -- or inferior -- to the Sebenza as respects dealing with/resisting flipping?
Makers do it publically, encourage their user market to do it, and there have been no complaints, that tends to say something to me, especially when it is not just one guy.

You do raise an important point though, it is possible, though I think very unlikely that all of the guys are hyping their knives and none of them can actually do it, so I tell you what, I'll buy one of the cheap and one of the high end ones and see what happens.

I'll drop Ralph an email today, Brownshoe if you can drop me an email about the production you mentioned, or anyone else I'll pick one of them up as well. I'll also do flicking on a Spyderco Paramilitary, and possibly a few others.

By the way if you want thoughts on design and materials, this has come up before when those makers in the above dealt with such issues when they are raised as people have cried abuse and they have calmly stepped in and said its not for my knives, flick away and talked about why their knives can handle it.

-Cliff
 
Kevin Wilkins said:
.

A butcher knife is made to be used in a slaughter house. If it is in fact used in a slaughter house for 8 hours a day it will wear out faster than the same knife used in the home for a half hour to make dinner. What's hard to understand about that? Drive your car everyday at max. RPM and the motor will wear out faster than if you don't.The more use and the nature of that use determine how long they last.

But if they wear after 1 hour, you will find them to be bad butcher knifes. If wear in general is excluded, you will keep that bad one, exept:

Kevin Wilkins said:
CRK will be fair and correct.

Kevin Wilkins said:
I have never needed the warranty on my Sebenza, but I have full confidence that should I ever have a problem, CRK will be fair and correct. Same goes for Spyderco and many others. I'd evealuate not just the warranty, but who's making it as well.

That truly is a difference, but it only depends on the person CR or whoever. If you don´t know them or the company, you only can rely on whats written down. Maybe a bit less than that.

Kevin Wilkins said:
I'd be interested to see how many of these makers with "unlimited" warranties will keep giving you new knives after you keep tearing them up. :-)

Me too, even after a new one has come into market the last weeks. :D :D

________________________________________________________________

Another example:

I drove my FIAT Punto over 4 years as fast as i could, maximum speed on highways a.s.o. (I knew why i buoght a slow car).

The motor didn´t weared down. Never expected an italian car to be so reliable. I guess it would have seen 200.000 km without any trouble. Dammned deer :mad: . There was a good warranty to cover such behaviour.

If a part of a car breaks down inbetween two years or 100.000 km, accident excluded, nobody asks you how fast you were driving. Wear it not a point.

So a good warranty should cover over time.

So my question in eturn would be: Has the limited warranty any influence on the users behaviour or not?

Do the Sebenza users limit their usage because of that limited warranty or are they trusting that knifes so far to forget the warranty and use it as it would have an unlimited?
 
Blop said:
But if they wear after 1 hour, you will find them to be bad butcher knifes. If wear in general is excluded, you will keep that bad one, SNIP

If a part of a car breaks down inbetween two years or 100.000 km, accident excluded, nobody asks you how fast you were driving.

A butcher knife that wears out in an hour would be the subject of a great deal on interest! That would be a defective knife. See CRK's statement above. It's very clear.

Regarding the auto: that's partly true. If you were racing the car, then the entire warranty is void. If the dealer suspects the car was used in competition... then you may have problems.

The warranty and the product - as another poster has pointed out above - are two distinct things. The best knife ever made might have no warranty at all while a crap knife may have a "lifetime warranty."

Taking the warranty and the maker AND the product into consideration when reaching a decision which knife to purchase are certainly valid points. Some buyers - such as perhaps Cliff - may find the warranty to very very very important, others may find it less so. It's an individual decision.
 
You surely get trouble, if it was in a race, aswell as i wouldn´t cover defects on a knife from testing it.

A good companiy or Knifemaker will tell if it is just weared down (things grow old) or if a specific wear is caused by a defect.

A good or more precise warranty (i know that is something really hard to manage) is always the key.

If you get used to knifes or a special company you won´t give much on whats writen down. But think, if you are new to this.

I was glad to find nice guys in the forums to help me in my first problem, to decide if something was really wrong with my knife or not.

Standing alone with nothing more than the companies integrity is not very much for me (just personal) if the case is not clear.

Imagine a next point:

Mercedes doen´t give a company warranty on their cars in G anymore.

Mercedes was well known for good cars, so no real problem. But during the last years thei quality has gone down a bit. So....

The warranty should fit the product and its intended use.
 
Cliff, I saw your post in the knife wanted for a D Ralph flicking supported folder, and had an idea.

My idea is that I would think that each company would jump at the chance to show how superior there folders are (since they withstand flicking) and would provide you with a sample gratis.

Edit: Speaking of, I check out the DR website and I missed where the flicking reccomended knives were.
 
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