Large Survival Knife vs. Hawk

[vector001]

I hate to be the odd man out but heres my 2 cents. For the woods the most usful combo ive found is a sawvivor colapsible saw and a 5-6 inch blade capable of acting as a batoning wedge. You wont kill any zombies, or look really manly, but its the least weight for packing around.

:thumbup:

i agree on what a saw can do - that's why i carry a flolding saw as part of my main kit - but you can't expect a saw to last - that's the problem.

if you want to really simplify, just bring a bic lighter or three and make or cut everything with fire.

if you want to be able to do things without drawing attention for a long time - you need tools that will last, and that will be field repairable.

a saw ain't it IMHO.

you can carry replacement blades, but they don't do anything else but wait to saw with, and are dead weight - while a hawk is a lot more than just a wood parter....


you have to ask yourself - what happens when all your saw blades are rusted after they dump into the river?

are you ready for that?

some here are.


"ready" don't mean "willing" though.


when we discuss these things, it must be in context, to be realistically considered as valuable information...;

when a hawk is rusted, you sharpen it with a few passes on a pond rock.

machetes can be sharpened and repaired just as easily.

try that with a saw blade.

are we car camping? - then it doesn't matter what you bring.


are we surviving? are we refugees? are we rescuers?

then our tools matter, because it's for keeps!



granted, i will use the hell out of my saws, but i will never depend on them;

i will depend on my hawks to live though.

.........

very respectfully, some of what i have read here about hawks in combatives (regarding their shortcomings) is off-base too - hawk me would never beat khukri me in combat - and i am saying this as a person who loves khukris! - that's a broad subject that has been discussed before, and khukris are nice tools that i like a lot - you just have to do things differently with them, but for the same weight or sometimes less, you can do a lot more, a lot faster, with less energy, with a machete and hawk combo.

been there, done that.

that stated, a khukri machete and a proper long hawk would be pretty fantastic.

as an aside, khukris suffer from the same edge-focussed mindset that proper tomahawks do, by the Untrained; the edge is for finishing (in efficient combatives), ...the spine of the khukri (or in the case of a proper hawk; the poll or spike) is the primary attacking surface.

you crush, then you tear.

two wounds.

one strike.


swing a khukri spine first, you will see how easy it is to turn and correct with - it's because of the trailing mass when the balde is reversed....


anyways...;

i added radiussed edges on the front of the Strike Plate on the Gen 1 composite handles to add weaponized surfaces to proper hawks - the edges present themselves the more off an operator is, so the classic mistakes; overstrikes, and twists, during melee fighting, actually become advantageous to the hawker; bones are broken and flesh is parted where only a bruise would occur usually, with typical handle cross-sections.

the handle is the real weapon, the head is just the warning.


i am glad that a lot of us here never have to fight off dangers on the trail, and don't mind insulting others' integrity or belittling their character about having to feel manly with our long knives and axes, ...but i have used mine more than once, in the defense of others as well as myself, in different parts of the world.

i could never brain a gator with a saw or a sharpened stick made with a saw's assistance - they are just too well armored when it counts - one shot from a hawk though and they are done.

i could never cross a river in flood by grappling something on the other side with a saw - i've done that several times with a hawk and some line though....

i have never seen ANYTHING that a saw was (immediately) good for in the desert pan or tundra - not so, where a hawk or machete could dig a quick hole and make a shelter in no time....

some snow shelters can be made with some saws - but not folding ones or saws like the Sawvivor - quinzzes suck as survival shelters IMHO, and that's about all you can do with those kinds of saws in that scenario - a machete can make any type of snow shelter, plus it makes debris huts alot faster in most circumstances.


REMEMBER: this is all coming from a guy who caries a saw with him almost all the time! - and has for decades of advanced outings

it must be very boring where you go off the path, if a saw and pen knife will do it for you, is all i can imagine.

no offense meant.

not for me.


carrying the "5 - 6 inch knife" is wise with the saw, and very reasonable to me - as i have stated earlier, i carry one of those too.

but when the weather turns against you, you'll likely wish that you had a long blade or durable chopper or BOTH! if you know how to use them together, ...especially after all your clothes are torn up after a bit of time in the wild, and your manmade shelters are gone.

to me, that's when it starts getting worthwhile.

HTH.

vec

 

[Silas]

I vote both.

 

[aleyn1975]

I like a hawk and 12 inch machete/large bowie. If I know I'll be doing a bit of clearing I'll take an 18 inch machete with the hawk. The hawk is just too useful and efficient for me to leave behind...ever.

 

[BryFry]

:thumbup:


...the spine of the khukri is the primary attacking surface.


swing a khukri spine first, you will see how easy it is to turn and correct with - it's because of the trailing mass when the balde is reversed....


the handle (of a hawk) is the real weapon, the head is just the warning.

...I think I agree with most of what you said, ...But you lost me on these two points^

 

[762cal]

well said @vector001..!
thanks for sharing

 

[Cpl Punishment]

...I think I agree with most of what you said, ...But you lost me on these two points^

I think his view is that by striking with the spine of the kukri or the haft of the hawk, you're doing two things:

1.) Using an attack mode most people won't expect and probably won't be defending against.

2.) You are inflicting damage with a surface that won't stick in the target. Thus you can cause several areas of trauma before finishing the job with a penetrating blow.

Which is why, while I love the looks of spike hawks, I don't want one for combat, I want one with a hammer poll, even if it's nearly flush with the rear of the eye wall, so I can select a penetrating or non-penetrating blow at will.





Which reminds me. . .

VEC -- you mind if I saw off the BUG poll on the Tigerstripe BUG to make it more like the Mamba? The mistress of the house said you had a special affinity for that one, so I wanted to ask before I did it.

 

[BryFry]

1.) Using an attack mode most people won't expect and probably won't be defending against.

...I want one with a hammer poll, even if it's nearly flush with the rear of the eye wall, so I can select a penetrating or non-penetrating blow at will.

Ok, hammer poll I get. ...But how does one effectively strike with the handle in a way that is more effective than the head of the hawk?

With a Kukri I personally find swinging one spine first to be a bit awkward, since the whole blade curves back toward you in that position, and thus makes it very difficult to land a solid blow with the spine, do to the upward angle the spine is now being presented in relation to your target.

I can see the not getting stuck part, and how that could enable you to land blows more quickly, but I think you'd have to be one tuff SOB to shrug off a full on hack with the sharp chopping edge of either Kuk or Hawk.

IMHO.

 

[vector001]

Ok, hammer poll I get. ...But how does one effectively strike with the handle in a way that is more effective than the head of the hawk?

With a Kukri I personally find swinging one spine first to be a bit awkward, since the whole blade curves back toward you in that position, and thus makes it very difficult to land a solid blow with the spine, do to the upward angle the spine is now being presented in relation to your target.

give it a little more practice, i thionk you will find it's effectiveness, brother.

that effectiveness depends upon which khukri you are talking about, how hard you are swinging, what part of the body you are targeting to take advantage of autonomic reactions ( - Chaos in your opponent, one of the three objectives of H2H, theo other two being Imbalance and Death/Unconsciousness) and what your wrist is doing, etc.

if you hit a prime body target and know how to manipulate it, you've won the battle - no need for herculean effort, just good targeting, and the spine-first method gets you there faster when milliseconds count.


like they say in gun craft, you can't miss fast enough.


that khukri spine will break a skull if you do your part, or just about any bone on the body.

clear your space with spine-first attacks; - example: down through the side of the skull and clavicle area with the spine - if the opponent parries, simply continue to flow down and pull that edge up through his crotch and femoral area and then do whatever you want.

the strikes with the mass trailing is what you want fo increased speed, target, indexing, and changes and deflections.

give it a try.

then after you master that, there are personal favorites to work on, for complete domination....

I can see the not getting stuck part, and how that could enable you to land blows more quickly, but I think you'd have to be one tuff SOB to shrug off a full on hack with the sharp chopping edge of either Kuk or Hawk.

IMHO.

no argument there, brother, about taking the shot - but what is one doing sitting there getting hacked in the first place?

where's the movement, right?

i agree with having to be tough shrugging off a blade strike, etc. -but as someone who has been in such lethal encounters personally, i think i have a good idea of what is realistic, especially for properly trained people. - that weapon has to hit before it can do damage of course, and the weight-forward choppers will have tracking issues that they will not experience when reversed. they can glance easier than trailing mass choppers too. if you are fighting an expert at re-directing your strikes, you might find your weapon sheathed in your guts....

don't worry about getting the blade stuck, etc. - thought process like that in combatives are dogmatic at best IMHO - everything can be turned into an advantage.

the reason you swing a khukri spine-first (at times, in combatives) is not for how it hits, but for how it moves. - when you reverse a khukri, it tracks better, similar to a scymitar, which most folks have never had the pleasure of using.

- hawks do the same thing when used in the reverse, when they are bit-heavy (Center of mass is forward, towards the bit).


it sounds complicated, and i am doing a piss-poor job of expressing what it is here, apologies - it is something that takes two days to explain but about ten minutes to show. - essentially, the more on the vertical stroke you get, going up or down, the more the bit/edge-first strikes show their advantages, while the opposite is true (spine-first), the more your strikes are horizontal.

i've got a couple shots with a hidden hawk where the opponent is dead meet if he gets within an arm-and-a-half distance of me, all using spine-first shots, in the underhand usually. - so if the opponent is my equal and he has something like a bowie that he is very good with, he is going down.

the edge just finishes him.

kindly keep in mind, this discussion is limited to use of these tools in combatives.

.........

if you go back and read, when i said that the head was only the warning, that the handle was the weapon, i was talking about a specific handle, my Gen 1 Composite Handles, which have a specified cross-section, mass, and fiber-aligned endo-/exo-skeletal structure, which makes them a lot more than just a plastic pole will ever be....

my handles have radiussed edges on the front of the handle, which present themselves when the hawk is off course, such as when youa re fatigued, or getting overwhelmed in battle against a large group - those corners are soft enough to be kind to your grip, but small enough to put more PSI where they strike, which adds up to broken bones and split skin on your opponents, with relatively little effort - hence my statement regarding the head being just the warning....

when you get close in, i see a lot of guy noting that they had a shorter weapon, etc. than a proper long hawk - hawks are not a cure-all, but the fact is baton work, such as with nightsticks, used to be pretty advanced (commonly) back when cops had to clobber folks instead of shooting them as soon as things got a little rough, like today.

so kindly consider this;

i think the typical adult torso is about 30 - 31 inches - you can't crumple much smaller than that, you might as well have a stick about that long - a 24 inch tomahawk, in the right hands, is superior in a hallway to shorter non-projectile weaponry IMHO.


i hear these objections a lot - some widespread training needs to happen. - YouTube here we come.... :thumbup:

HTH.

vec

 

[vector001]

VEC -- you mind if I saw off the BUG poll on the Tigerstripe BUG to make it more like the Mamba? The mistress of the house said you had a special affinity for that one, so I wanted to ask before I did it.

it's your hawk, bubba!


have fun any way you can! :thumbup:

vec

 

[BryFry]

vector001, Thank you for explaining further. Your methods sound very interesting, and the fact that you have a very specialized haft/handle for your hawks likely makes more sense when it comes to using that handle as a weapon. :thumbup:

I'm still having trouble picturing it in my head though. ....like you said, videos would probably help.

 

[Burke]

I have one of Vec's BUG hawks on a 24" handle. I have trouble imagining a better CQC weapon.

1) The length is short enough to get in at least a chopping, if not a full power, swing even in a hallway or small room.

2) The length is completely adjustable - that is, because there is no specific gripping zone you can easily choke all the way to the bottom to get a full 24" or you can hold it half-way up and get an effective 12" swing.

3) You don't have to swing, you can "punch" with the head either at full extension for range or choked up in grappling situations. I would guess there is probably not enough power available here to disable a limb if you hit the meat of a shoulder or torso, but definitely enough to break or smash fingers, noses, cheekbones, any softer targets. The top of the head is "semi-sharp" so wouldn't stab per se but would rip and crush.

4) The whole hawk is a weapon. The bit and poll, obviously. The length of the shaft where Vector describes the radiused edges is also effective. I've done some gentle whacks against my arm and the difference between the fully rounded "back" of the shaft and one of the "edges" is significant. I'd guess something on the order of 4x the impact when concentrated on an "edge." The butt of the tomahawk is also a very effective striking surface - hold the hawk with one hand at the head and one hand 6" from the bottom and you've got a semi-sharp surface (the butt is squared off and also has a nut protruding from it) that you can either make a short, sharp strike with if you're being bullrushed, or that you can lean all your weight into if you're the one doing the rushing. This is also *fast* - way faster than swinging the hawk.

It's also worth mentioning the poll on these BUG hawks. It's ground down with a bevel on the tip, concentrating force into a smaller area. Penetration with this is surprisingly effective. It maintains sharp 90 degree edges on the corner surfaces which are easily sharp enough to cut skin (I managed to put a decent gouge on the back of my hand accidentally while trying out some different grips and striking a log; if these caught someone a glancing blow when striking or withdrawing with full force it would tear them up). I would like to see a longer poll - another 1/2"-1" or so would allow better "hooking" and deeper penetration. The existing one would jack someone up, especially if you hit a hard surface, but I feel like it might "bottom out" against softer surfaces without maximizing damage potential.

5) The tomahawk allows unpredictable and unique techniques. One of the biggest of these is "hooking" using the beard. This can be done against arms and shoulders, I also see no reason it couldn't be done to legs or other body parts. I'd probably prefer a longer shaft for trying to hook shins or knees though. When choked up under the head, the shaft can also be used for whipping strikes. Again, probably not enough force to destroy a limb, but definitely enough to cause a pain reaction, and highly distracting if you whip it up into an opponent's groin or across his face. And the key here is that you're holding the hawk right under the head - it looks like you're ready to strike with the head but in fact you can hit with the shaft.

Having had the opportunity to use a hawk a little bit, I think it offers more options than a knife. I can think of a few scenarios where a knife would be preferable - a knife trades swinging impact for stabbing efficacy, and a knife is harder to grapple with - but the versatility of the hawk is impressive.

 

[vector001]

^ great informational post, brother burke.

i guess i should note - ther is no competition between the long knife and a proper hawk - the two are natural mates IMHO, in a fight, or in the field.

one is enough, two is better.


there are a lot of hawk combatives that need to be taught, but i think that subject of discussion belongs on another sub-forum that i don't tend to go to yet, and talking about a hawk for combatives gives a lot of novitiates the false impression that hawks are not very good for field utility - a purpose that i use my personal hawks to an extreme in the field, compared to combatives practice.


in the wilderness, a hawk can really be just as much of a generalist tool as a good long knife, we just aren't typically as accustomed to what it might do for us, because of cultural reasons. folks just know knives, even in this whimpy culture.

if hawks get more common, folks will look back at threads like this and think we were all stating the obvious. - hawks will obviously be a strong choice on that happy occasion.

great thread, now we need to do some video.

vec

 

[Calebklyne]

Vec i always love your posts, no matter what i always learn something from them, and i am also impressed with the knowledge of the others in this thread.

i do have one question tho, i personally find poll hawks to be more practical but lets say all you have to defend yourself from a bear is a hawk would you rather have a poll or a spike?

i would prefer a spike personally but im interested to see what others have to say as its kind of a one hit situation

 

[Cpl Punishment]

With a Kukri I personally find swinging one spine first to be a bit awkward, since the whole blade curves back toward you in that position, and thus makes it very difficult to land a solid blow with the spine, do to the upward angle the spine is now being presented in relation to your target.

First, understand that not all kukri are the same. Some have a lot of downward droop, some not so much. The one I'd choose for the combat type purpose would be the HI Chitlangi, which doesn't have a lot of droop, the upper and lower spine are fairly straight, and the blade itself is relatively thin, so it's fast. Again, the purpose would be to not get the blade stuck. On a large kukri, like the one I posted above, I'd probably just be able to swing an arc clear through a person's ribcage and keep going. But it's a 3+ pound blade, and really not fast enough for fighting. With a lighter, fighting style, I don't have the same ability to just power through a strike, and may end up with the blade stuck.

I can see the not getting stuck part, and how that could enable you to land blows more quickly, but I think you'd have to be one tuff SOB to shrug off a full on hack with the sharp chopping edge of either Kuk or Hawk.

No one's going to shrug off either. In fact a good, solid kukri blow is probably going to be lethal in almost all cases. I'm not worried about that. I'm worried about what his friends are doing while I'm trying to pull my weapon out of his body.

Think of Last of the Mohicans, after the Indians ambush the redcoats, and Hawkeye is running through the melee to save the girl, and takes a running swipe at one of the enemy. That's something I'd use the poll for. When I have to run and keep going, I DO NOT want the bit to dig in and lodge in some guy's head. Make no mistake, a poll strike to the head will most likely kill just as well as a strike with the bit on a head shot, and break whatever you hit anywhere else.

i do have one question tho, i personally find poll hawks to be more practical but lets say all you have to defend yourself from a bear is a hawk would you rather have a poll or a spike?

i would prefer a spike personally but im interested to see what others have to say as its kind of a one hit situation

Personally, here's where I'd draw the long knife. I understand you probably want the penetration of the spike think about the tank-like structure of a bear. Problem is, the tank-like structure of the bear. I don't really know if a spike could reach a vital spot, I'm also not sure it could penetrate the thick skull they have. I'm thinking it'd be better to repeatedly beat it about the head with a hammer poll until I could get an opening to drive the long knife in and go for the arterial bleeding method.

 

[HighDesertWalker]

In the context of the ongoing discussion, I'm curious to know what Bowie knives are preferred by those who carry them.

 

[wildmike]

My favorite bowie is my G.L. Drew 10" less than ugly bowie. Wish I could post pics.

Favorite Kukri is my H.I M-43. These Kuk's unlike most are not clumsy on the thrust and move very fluidly in the hand. Yet outchop anything I've come across.

I don't have a hawk right now having sold my Coal Creek Forge hammer poll to a friend who bugged me for it for 2 years. I plan on ordring another couple.

 

[BryFry]

In the context of the ongoing discussion, I'm curious to know what Bowie knives are preferred by those who carry them.

Here's a couple of my current favorites .....CS Larado, and Fallkniven Thor

and a few other choppers thrown in....

Kukri like object.....

 

[HighDesertWalker]

Those are great looking bowies BF. Thanks for the pics. :thumbup:

 

[vector001]

Vec i always love your posts, no matter what i always learn something from them, and i am also impressed with the knowledge of the others in this thread.

i do have one question tho, i personally find poll hawks to be more practical but lets say all you have to defend yourself from a bear is a hawk would you rather have a poll or a spike?

i would prefer a spike personally but im interested to see what others have to say as its kind of a one hit situation

i'm really on the fence about that, brother. - i get about equal use out of stock spiked heads and hammer poll'd heads in the wilderness as utility items, that's why we developed the BUG Head, which is a bit of a hybrid of the two, with its Penetrator Poll.


so to me, the poll/spike thingy is a non-argument.


that said, i notice that elk and deer, which regularly defend themselves from predators, have spikes on their heads and chisels on their feet, instead of hammer polls though...:thumbup:....


if you have to go against an alpha predator (with the tools that you have at hand, like just a hawk and long knife) which can out-run you, to me the only choice is to attack, which has worked for me in the past at dissolving tense situations. - a lot of folks object to that tactic, who have been gnawed on by bears and kicked flat by moose and such, but i have all my fingers and toes, and i haven't seen many mongoose or cougar back down off of much larger predators. - to me (respectfully as possible, while remaining candid), those folks are unteachable. - they are trying to apply human thought to animals IMHO.

- you don't want to get killed; an alpha predator doesn't want to get hurt.


- which brings me to something i feel must be observed now;

i think to be thorough in our consideration of your intitial question, one needs to modify the question to subparts;

1) why is this bear/alpha predator attacking us? (you won't see it in the press, but the answer is almost always that the person attacked was doing something stupid or at best; risky - almost always repeatedly. - stupidity doesn't garner much sympathy.)

2) why didn't we use the hawk we had, poll or spiked, to make a lance or giant hook from available wood? - the only bear habitat i have been in where wood was not available was in the desert (stringy little shy black bears, and very rare) and on the arctic tundra (where the wind was monitored and a slug gun was at hand, in grizzly country - i worry more about those little bastard vole-thingies eating my backpack, personally).

3) the SHTF - what are your targets going to be? - a lot of folks might say the neck or ribs (with a hawk or long knife - one needs to hit the same spot to open it up (once you are being shook, forget it, is my advice), the other, the long knife doesn't have enough reach and approaches at the wrong angle when you are dealing with the business end of a bear, etc.) - a simple hook made from a forked branch will bury deep in the first swing, and approach at a speed and angle that an alpha predator can't deal with, with greater effect than a lance, unless you manage to get the lance anchored and actually hit something vital on the bear (again, don't count on it IMHO.)


so preparation, not just immediate readiness (with tools at hand in your basic kit) is key, no matter what tool that you choose.

make some stand-off tools, like lances and hooked lances from trees, if you think you will need them - they are good for getting up trees quickly when used as ramps if nothing else....

people that carry those little hiking sticks in boreal forests, when a longer, stouter stick can be had locally for free, really confuse me....


i've had some close encounters with black bears in Saskatchewan, but they were really thick that year, and they ran as soon as you charged them with a lance, even when they were aggressive or curious.

leave them alone and watch your back, and bad bear encounters should be rare no matter where you are. - personally, i worry more about cougars and wolves, and that's why i like to have my wolf-dogs off-leash, as early-warning systems.

other folks feel different/opposite, and that's fine.

my way works for me.


that's what i think.

'til i change my mind anyways...:thumbup:

vec

 

[vector001]

In the context of the ongoing discussion, I'm curious to know what Bowie knives are preferred by those who carry them.

here's a decent stock choice that has worked for me over the last few years.

i really like the other ones folks have posted so far too, but a Cold Steel Bowie, modified Ontario Machete, or short Tramontina or Condor can be more affordable, and i can hand them out to folks for teaching, etc.


......

most bowies that i see are too thick, but i love their profiles.

if i was going to design a perfect bowie (for me) it would probably be 5/32" - 3/16" stock thickness with morphing grinds for strength and mass placement, 12 inches long blade, with lots of belly and a little sweep to the blade, with a slight hump behind the back edge with some light jimping on it for use with the lanyard looped over my forearm, for tight work using the tip;

the spine would have sharpened edges for a scraper, the guard would be a diminutive a single guard and lack the breaker guard style, the handle would be a composite wrap over a solid hidden tang, and there would be a very thin metal cap on the butt that acted as ballast as well as protection, so the balde would turn hard.


....drool....


vec