Large Survival Knife vs. Hawk

[Wolf_1989]

What hawk is that?

I had bought an Iroquois Hawk from Ft Turner and felt it was too small. A little while later I requested a larger version and it turned out just right. The head on that hawk is the larger Ft Turner Iroquois Hawk on one of my decorated handles I carve by hand from sledgehammer handles. I still use the smaller one as a thrower though as it throws very well.

Dimensions:

Head --- 7" long with a 3.75" edge
Handle - 23.25" long

I really dig Dana Turner's work. His forging and heat treatment are excellent... and hard to beat for the price.

Lately I've been considering a custom hawk based on the Missouri War Axe.

 

[vector001]

Thanks for the reply, vector. I always enjoy thought provoking discussion.

there are a lot of great minds on this forum.

Yes, but this is only true up to a point. If a long blade is too thin, then any theoretical benefits you may have had from less cutting resistance is overcome by the blade's tendency to flex and wobble in the cut. This is often noted with swords, and I've even seen it with a cheap 18" bladed machete.

right - actually, from my perspective, it's between a point - that's the range where analysis comes in handy, allowing you to make a good guess with less waste involved.

I would have assumed as much, but am curious to hear more about this. It sounds really cool, being able to run ideas through a system & predict how they'd perform before ya start grinding. Sounds like it would save a lot of trial and error.

it does - more so if one uses their own knowledge to guide the interpretations of the data; - i look at my databases like a really smart young person who can gladly do all the hard work for me while i make the decisions and give the go-aheads.

data is as dangerous as it is useful.

like fire, you must respect it.

Say, like 2 feet long? (like my bowie above?)

right again - i haven't done analysyis on it, but i would bet that an 18 inch blade would show favorable characteristics in 1/4 inch stock, in that form - beautiful blade BTW, brother. - just need a whip and a Stetson.


alright, back to hawks vs. long blades.

vec

 

[maximus0723]

.

What's the blade length and weight of that Kukri? and is that ang khola version?

 

[Cpl Punishment]

That's a Chiruwa Ang Khola, 20" OAL, about 15" of blade, roughly 3.5 pounds.

 

[maximus0723]

That's intense. Thanks bud.

 

[dan-g]

IN the debate between hawk and big knife I always take the hawk. I love my 2hawks warbeast, My HI gulbu tends to just collect dust.

I tend to only take the hawk when im going out for bigger game hunting or just putzing around the redwood forrest. Its nice for sectioning carcasses or deliming.

For my backpacking trips I leave the hawk and opt for my saw and 6 inch knife. Humbolt doesnt have many "dangers on the trail" only mountain lions, black bears, and pot fields. My hiking staff works well enough for thwarting most critters. I pack light for my week hikes and with the saw, my hawk just doesnt get aloght of play.

And for Vector, Im sorry if I somehow insulted you again i noticed you quoted me and added "i am glad that a lot of us here never have to fight off dangers on the trail, and don't mind insulting others' integrity or belittling their character about having to feel manly with our long knives and axes"
Also im sorry I said I didnt like the way the eco hawk felt in my hand, Its a great tool I just pesonaly dont feel comfortable with it.

Its too bad you feel my outdoors experiance is very boring, considering you dont know me and I do find that insulting and somwhat unbrotherly of you. Oh well I guess were even since I seem to be insulting you somhow just by posting.

 

[aleyn1975]

IN the debate between hawk and big knife I always take the hawk. I love my 2hawks warbeast, My HI gulbu tends to just collect dust.

I tend to only take the hawk when im going out for bigger game hunting or just putzing around the redwood forrest. Its nice for sectioning carcasses or deliming.

For my backpacking trips I leave the hawk and opt for my saw and 6 inch knife. Humbolt doesnt have many "dangers on the trail" only mountain lions, black bears, and pot fields. My hiking staff works well enough for thwarting most critters. I pack light for my week hikes and with the saw, my hawk just doesnt get aloght of play.

And for Vector, Im sorry if I somehow insulted you again i noticed you quoted me and added "i am glad that a lot of us here never have to fight off dangers on the trail, and don't mind insulting others' integrity or belittling their character about having to feel manly with our long knives and axes"
Also im sorry I said I didnt like the way the eco hawk felt in my hand, Its a great tool I just pesonaly dont feel comfortable with it.

Its too bad you feel my outdoors experiance is very boring, considering you dont know me and I do find that insulting and somwhat unbrotherly of you. Oh well I guess were even since I seem to be insulting you somhow just by posting.

Normally I wouldn't get involved in others beefs, but I'd just like to make a few third party observations here. As to who slung mud first, I do believe it was you. All reasons for packing a hawk were given by people with real concerns and points, well founded or not. No one mentioned the need to "look manly, or "kill zombies." Intentional or not this was definitely a jab at anyone who opts to carry a hawk in the woods. It doesn't insult me personally cause I can possibly see where you're coming from. I assume your obvious disdain (in your initial post) for packing a hawk derives from the terrain you hike and take trips in and the lack of real use for one. I have to agree then that it would be a total waste for you to pack extra weight that you have no use for. As to a boring outdoors experience, compared to what Vec and many others in the armed forces have experienced, compared to what many recreational outdoors folk have experienced, yeah my own time in the woods is pretty dull and boring, just the way I like it. If it's boring it means I wasn't stupid, nothing bad happened. Stupidity aside, sometimes stuff just happens and I haven't been terribly smacked by the stuff yet. Others with more skills, ability and training than myself can definitely have a more exciting time in the outdoors. Last time I tried exciting I was 20 and ended up halfway down a rocky cliffside with loose stones for handholds and 30 yards slide away from broken bones (I was glad I had my spike hawk that day I can tell ya). It's for just this versatility that more and more armed forces are packin' a hawk and not saws. They don't always have the luxury of using trails or taking their time. They don't likely often have intimate knowledge of the terrain. Your own neck of the woods sounds pretty hairy to me. "Lions and potfarms and Bears OH MY!" It doesn't seem to cause you much concern, because as you and Vec both realize, a danger known is far less a danger.

 

[dan-g]

kind of threadjacking here, sorry everybody. Ill be quick.

I did sling some mud even before this post without relizing the maker was so involved in this site with my comment of the ecos ackwardness in my hand. The "manly and zombie" comments have been ecoed repeatedly many times in other threads and there refrence was a self observation that I will always opt for the cooler looking tool, even though I dont need it. I didnt itend for this refrence to reflect on anyone else. When im posting im just posting my own observations and I dont intend these comment to reflect on people whose lifes I dont know.

That bieng said I hope eveones experiances are welcome on the forum not just profesional soldiers. I find many varied experiances make for useful dialog. I never intended to belitle people who need to carry long knives and hawks. I personaly always have my Benneli in my pack sheath so I dont feel vunerable.

So in conclusion im trying to close this up and stop my personal threadjack and I apoligize to anyone who was affended by my post. I wont post anymore comments on this thread so people can be retuned to the actual discussion but if someone wants to continue this discusion feel free to pm me.

 

[vector001]

IN the debate between hawk and big knife I always take the hawk. I love my 2hawks warbeast, My HI gulbu tends to just collect dust.

I tend to only take the hawk when im going out for bigger game hunting or just putzing around the redwood forrest. Its nice for sectioning carcasses or deliming.

For my backpacking trips I leave the hawk and opt for my saw and 6 inch knife. Humbolt doesnt have many "dangers on the trail" only mountain lions, black bears, and pot fields. My hiking staff works well enough for thwarting most critters. I pack light for my week hikes and with the saw, my hawk just doesnt get aloght of play.

And for Vector, Im sorry if I somehow insulted you again i noticed you quoted me and added "i am glad that a lot of us here never have to fight off dangers on the trail, and don't mind insulting others' integrity or belittling their character about having to feel manly with our long knives and axes"
Also im sorry I said I didnt like the way the eco hawk felt in my hand, Its a great tool I just pesonaly dont feel comfortable with it.

Its too bad you feel my outdoors experiance is very boring, considering you dont know me and I do find that insulting and somwhat unbrotherly of you. Oh well I guess were even since I seem to be insulting you somhow just by posting.

i felt that you drew first blood on that comment, brother.

if your sorrow is true, please accept my reciprocal apologies.


no sweat. forget it.

i don't mind the criticism on the ECO either - we need to do some video on it for more "a-ha!" factor in the folks who have selcted it, and might not realize on therir own some solutions. - so no problem, as far as i am concerned, brother.


brother fight, i like it that way. - it keep us all strong, or shows who is a weakling and a coward, that we don't need to waste our breath on, 'cuz there in no saving them anyways.

- they fight, but they are still brothers.

that's where i am at on that.

your bud,

vec

 

[wildmanh]

I personally like to carry both a Hawk and a knife. My combo on many a hike has been my Great River Forge Medium French hawk and Becker BK9. Have done some splitting with the French hawk, but not real chopping as of yet. Am thinking that a longer handle would be nice so if I can find a good deal on the 30" Hawk handle from Cold Steel I'll probably get it and cut it to the length I want.

Earlier the Hawk VS Khukri was mentioned. Here's my take on it: In my hands, my hawks can not out chop Most of my Khukris. Sure the main wait on my hawks is in the head and most are around 12oz but my Khukris start at around 22oz and I've been using them for 9 years now. Hardly used a hawk so I'm tons better with a Khukri. Mind you I'm talking about chopping wood, mostly elm, willow, Aspen, Cotton wood, scrub oak, lodge pole pine and ponderosa pine. As always, your milage may varry. One of these days I should do a chop off between my French hawk and 20" Sirupati. Wonder what those results would be like. Bet they would make a good combo.

Heber

 

[vector001]

Earlier the Hawk VS Khukri was mentioned. Here's my take on it: In my hands, my hawks can not out chop Most of my Khukris. Sure the main wait on my hawks is in the head and most are around 12oz but my Khukris start at around 22oz and I've been using them for 9 years now.

respectfully, brother - what kind of hawks and khukris do you own that weigh that little?

my BUG hawk heads weigh 11 ounces, plus the weight of the composite handle itself, and Trail hawk heads alone weight about 14 - 15 ounces, in stock form, plus the weight of the handle.

and what type of true khukri weighs 22 ounces? a CS khukri machete? - the next one must be pretty tiny, or a lot heavier, by my reckoning.

it sounds off to me.

TIA.

....

Heber

you have to define "outchop" too, to be clear and fair - since most wilderness tasks are not race-based, and some of them aren't even endurance based - what wilderness task is it, in your view, that a khukri is better suited for regular carry than a proper hawk?

- i don't think there are any wrong answers, so don't take my questions as implied criticism. - i like khukris a bit as pseudo-machetes.

vec

 

[SLOW2RUN]

Vector 001, Brother theirs been times in my life when I would have felt blessed to have your ECO hawk with me .I do wonder about is handle tho ?

 

[Kentucky]

We run a farm besides the forge. We have to take care of about 12 acres worth of electric fence that runs thru the thick appalachian mountains. A hatchet or hawk is a must, period. usally its a hatchet so I can replace the torn out fence insulators easier. Hawk or knife depends on what you do with them..My kives are for skinning,cleaning and gutting..hawks are for chopping..

 

[vector001]

Vector 001, Brother theirs been times in my life when I would have felt blessed to have your ECO hawk with me .I do wonder about is handle tho ?

no need to wonder, my brother - it's unconditionally guaranteed with our Happiness Guarantee.

it gets the job done.

all i know is i would've loved to have had an ECO in the jungle, and several other rough places that i have been in, especially in the military....

it's not really a knife, and it's not really a hawk, it's more like a one-handed draw-knife when hafted, that can do pretty good duty as the other two, in utility as well as combatives, hafted ror not.

....just add some tricks, like weighting the haft with some washers that can be used also in your survival fishing kit, and the ECO starts to become competition for a true proper hawk.

wrap the head with paracord or put some egg-shaped scales on the head, and trim the primary edge down a bit, and suddenly the ECO is a pretty tight little survival knife.

the concept was to get something economical that the end user could (and should) modify - they don't have to worry about not being able to return it if they blow it up, that's why we have the Happiness Guarantee.

the ECO wasn't meant to keep up with a long knife and proper hawk combo, it was just supposed to keep you comfortably alive long enough for you to fashion a pair of those, or get back to your Battle Bag and recover them, etc.

troops seem to like it for the same reason hikers do - the ECO rides easy in a small space, and it's useful when you need it.


i'll try to be less of an idiot on YouTube (i'm showing my machete sheaths basic layered system on it right now with a bunch of Tramontinas that i am sending to Dirt Time 2010 - "Vec's Machete System - Vision Sheaths"), and get out some more info on it that's easier to understand.

wish us luck, brethren.

vec

 

[Wolf_1989]

respectfully, brother - what kind of hawks and khukris do you own that weigh that little?

...
and what type of true khukri weighs 22 ounces? a CS khukri machete? - the next one must be pretty tiny, or a lot heavier, by my reckoning.

it sounds off to me.

I have a Himalayan Imports Sirupati which is 20.25" long, about 14" of that being blade. It weighs 24 oz.

My brother has a Himalayan Imports M43 which is 18.5" long and weighs 23 oz.

My wife has a Himalayan Imports Chitlangi which is 15.5" long with about 10" of blade and only weighs 20 oz.

 

[Cpl Punishment]

you have to define "outchop" too, to be clear and fair - since most wilderness tasks are not race-based, and some of them aren't even endurance based - what wilderness task is it, in your view, that a khukri is better suited for regular carry than a proper hawk?

- i don't think there are any wrong answers, so don't take my questions as implied criticism. - i like khukris a bit as pseudo-machetes.

vec

Even though you didn't address this to me, I'll give my view.
My primary kukri will outchop a hawk, and most axes. Outchop meaning wider and deeper cuts. However, my primary kukri is in the vicinity of 3.5 pounds and 20" long, and is the heaviest style HI makes. However, because of the weight, it loses nimbleness to the hawk. Which is why I mentioned above that to go to a melee fight, I'd take both a kukri and hawk, and the hawk would be to deflect the other guy's primary weapon, and the kukri would be the killer.

Much as I love your hawks, I can't put the kukri down for long. In fact, I'm often tempted to carry both. Of course my friends say I scare the sheep already on the trail and this would be even worse. Which just eggs me on. . .

 

[vector001]

I have a Himalayan Imports Sirupati which is 20.25" long, about 14" of that being blade. It weighs 24 oz.

My brother has a Himalayan Imports M43 which is 18.5" long and weighs 23 oz.

My wife has a Himalayan Imports Chitlangi which is 15.5" long with about 10" of blade and only weighs 20 oz.

those sound pretty sweet - i don't think i have been exposed to such light khukris - does that count the weight of the carry system?


i've got a Gelbu Special that a khukri afficionado gave me years ago, that is long and gently arc'd that i really love - i'll have to dig it out and weigh it, i think it's a bit in the middle for how stout it is.

..........

brother 'punishment - i hear ya on the value of the khukri - i think i'd be turning the kukhri around though and tend to use it for clearing, and the hawk for finishing, and switching the tasks back and forth erratically.

man, fights suck, but that'd be a good one if you had to go in style.... :thumbup:

that said, i don't really care about the larger swath khukris make, i'm not going to need that in the field for my bushcraft, and it has got to have lower PSI than a hawk bit at the same weight, so i am still sold on small-bit hawks, as long as they have proper hawk physics.

if i could only have one, the khukris would be a great choice though.

nothing wrong with them IMHO, they just don't "sing" for me.

give me that swept bowie instead.

vec

 

[Wolf_1989]

those sound pretty sweet - i don't think i have been exposed to such light khukris - does that count the weight of the carry system?

of course it doesn't. But I still wouldn't prefer to pair up a khukri with a tomahawk. I experimented with it and found it 'unbalanced' for lack of a better word. My first choice as a complimentary blade for a tomahawk would be a medium sized knife with a 5"-7" blade; again, a Kabar or something similar.

But I would like to try tomahawk techniques with a katar though.

 

[aleyn1975]

I heard that wolf. I think CS is already halfway there with the boar spear head. A bit of modification and you'd be pretty close.

 

[aleyn1975]

I like the PSI on a hawk too for getting deeper penetration into wood than with my kuks. Maybe I should think about reprofiling my kuks as a lot of you guys seem to be getting better chops with the kuk. We really gotta do some choping comparisons with hawk and kuks of EQUAL weight. Vec, I agree on the PSI thing, that's what really turned me on to the trailhawk when I first started using it. I was amazed at how well it chopped. But, I got a Fort Turner hawk made to my specs and I'm really loving it. The blade is a bit longer which helps me avoid misses on wood, but I still get a lot of PSI due to the slight angle of blade down and in towards the handle (think Francisca, just more utilitarian). I'll try and post pics soon, but I'm liking it so far, and it is as light, if not lighter than the trailhawk. Next one I'll see if FT can use 5160 for it.