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I was listening to a news report about the 'astronomical' American losses in Iraq resulting from about three years of war. I thought, "Shoot, more Americans were killed in three hours on 9-11!"
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Latest 9/11 Mystery Video
- Thread starter Drdan
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I was listening to a news report about the 'astronomical' American losses in Iraq resulting from about three years of war. I thought, "Shoot, more Americans were killed in three hours on 9-11!"
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Munk its easy to play morale superiority about civilian casulitys when the wars 3000 miles from your home.
Its harder when your invaded .
Britain ignored tyrany you say?
Sorry buts thats just wild fantasy on your part. We were there at the start to help other nations. {Invasion of Poland put us in the front line.}
We didnt wait to be ambushed & sunk to decide Nazism & Japanese Asia was naughty & needed to be stopped.
I always find a knowledge of the subjects facts helps any discusian, rather than veiws based on fantasy.
You wish to ridicule civilian russias losses fighting the Germans?
Ill leave that to your consience tommorow morning.
The amount of deaths doesnt show morality, but its shows the human effort & lose involved, if you of all people cant see that I am surprised.
I am trying to show the realitys not simple portrary it this way or that way to inhance my own personal beleifs or wishes syndrome.
The War wasnt what we see in Hollywood productions.
If what I say can be so misread or distorted to reach the conlusians you wish to imply I made, Thats seems rather a shame.
WW"2 was one by a combined effort, if you wish to discard the fact that the Commies lost about 12 soldiers fighting the Germans to Every BraveAmerican & British servicmen killed & connococt some hollywood fantasy that America won ww2 with a few brits, theres not much I can say, as you have chosen to ignore all evidence.
The Allies won WW2 because we all, {Russiaa, Brits yanks etc.} put enough men & tanks in the field & enough bodies in the ground & also raised enough German cities full of civiliansto the ground to win.
I know many English who think England one ww2. they are equaly deluded.
The Allies won it. Would we without the 20,000,000 russian soldiers? 40% of whom died. maybe about 1958 I reckon.
Spiral
Its harder when your invaded .
Britain ignored tyrany you say?
Sorry buts thats just wild fantasy on your part. We were there at the start to help other nations. {Invasion of Poland put us in the front line.}
We didnt wait to be ambushed & sunk to decide Nazism & Japanese Asia was naughty & needed to be stopped.
I always find a knowledge of the subjects facts helps any discusian, rather than veiws based on fantasy.
You wish to ridicule civilian russias losses fighting the Germans?
Ill leave that to your consience tommorow morning.
The amount of deaths doesnt show morality, but its shows the human effort & lose involved, if you of all people cant see that I am surprised.
I am trying to show the realitys not simple portrary it this way or that way to inhance my own personal beleifs or wishes syndrome.
The War wasnt what we see in Hollywood productions.
If what I say can be so misread or distorted to reach the conlusians you wish to imply I made, Thats seems rather a shame.
WW"2 was one by a combined effort, if you wish to discard the fact that the Commies lost about 12 soldiers fighting the Germans to Every BraveAmerican & British servicmen killed & connococt some hollywood fantasy that America won ww2 with a few brits, theres not much I can say, as you have chosen to ignore all evidence.
The Allies won WW2 because we all, {Russiaa, Brits yanks etc.} put enough men & tanks in the field & enough bodies in the ground & also raised enough German cities full of civiliansto the ground to win.
I know many English who think England one ww2. they are equaly deluded.
The Allies won it. Would we without the 20,000,000 russian soldiers? 40% of whom died. maybe about 1958 I reckon.
Spiral
Unfortunately, one of those skulls is his own.
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I laughed out loud on that one. When I was a kid just old enough to start helping my dad with projects around the house and at work, any time i asked "What do you want me to do, Dad?" He would ALWAYS quip the answer, "Stand on your head and eat a bolony sandwich."
I have no idea what that means, but i'm pretty sure it is one of the many driving factors that has made me so weird in adulthood.
He STILL tells this to my adopted little brother who is 20 years my junior. A new generation of weirdness, i'm afraid.
Jake
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But, tell the truth, YOU FELT INCLUDED, hangin' right in there with the Ole Man! How many kids today hear "Get the F^*% outta da way!". And I'm betting you teach your kids how to fix things, don't you, just like God intended. Now, go get a Bologna sandwich.....munch and enjoy!
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I'm heading out for surgery......see y'all later.
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- Oct 25, 2004
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This got ugly in a hurry, didn't it?
We should stop with the "we." I wasn't there and neither were you. I refuse to hold grudges over episodes that I wasn't personally part of.
Nationalism seems to be a sticking point here and elsewhere. I see nothing wrong with someone being proud of where they were born, but what is ever gained by questioning where someone else was born?
Good luck with the surgery, JN.
We should stop with the "we." I wasn't there and neither were you. I refuse to hold grudges over episodes that I wasn't personally part of.
Nationalism seems to be a sticking point here and elsewhere. I see nothing wrong with someone being proud of where they were born, but what is ever gained by questioning where someone else was born?
Good luck with the surgery, JN.
Spiral, it was you who said, 'you don't think Europe did anything 60 years ago, munk?"
I never said that. That's a strawman argument, I'm characterized in a postition which was never mine, and you get to go on from there. That is not logical, nor worth pursuing. I'm sorry I didnt' catch it at the time and point it out. I would not have bothered.
If I now say, "Britain has much to be proud of," A strawman would be, "And France doesn't???!! There can be no useful exchange of ideas with strawman nooses freely given out.
munk
I never said that. That's a strawman argument, I'm characterized in a postition which was never mine, and you get to go on from there. That is not logical, nor worth pursuing. I'm sorry I didnt' catch it at the time and point it out. I would not have bothered.
If I now say, "Britain has much to be proud of," A strawman would be, "And France doesn't???!! There can be no useful exchange of ideas with strawman nooses freely given out.
munk
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Dang it! I was (and am) hoping that comment about leaving perhaps sooner rather than later was just a little over-the-top rhetoric.
Good luck with your situation. I sincerely hope and pray it all works out.
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I was kind of taken aback by the concept that wartime losses (especially civilian) have a direct relationship to effectiveness against an enemy.
This connection is especially tenuous when talking about the Russians since Russian "war-related' deaths are sometimes described to include the multiplied millions killed by Stalin slightly before, during, and shortly after the war.
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Great thread! Been following along for days. My only comments:
1) This theory is ridiculous. Everyone knows the Mexican government did it with Bush and Cheney's collusion (and the help of the evil Zionists who paid off Halliburton) in retaliation for trying to close the border, which Dubya and friends want to keep open for cheap labor for their fat-cat friends. Duh.
2) Now not kidding: Munk is correct. LaPierre was referring prinicipally to the jackbooted A$$HOLES in the BATF, aka the Bureau of Alterations, Tales and Fabrications, aka the Baby Burning Bastards of Waco. (Actually, to be fair, I guess the FBI really gassed and then burned them. The ATF just machine gunned them and then lied about it. My bad.)
Bush Sr. quit in protest to that statement as he had only joined the NRA a couple of years before in 1992 as a Life member to get the pro-gun vote anyway and simply showed his true colors by quitting. He was never a friend to gun owners while in office, and is more ideologically akin to Boy Clinton in that regard than he is to his own son.
How anyone in another branch of the FedGov could take offense to that is a puzzle to me, unless perhaps they felt some kinship to the illegal and immoral tactics employed by the ATF, who are the unemployable dregs of the other alphabet soup agencies? Can't cut it in the FBI / DEA / Marshalls / US Police / DF&G / or as a local Sheriff's deputy? The ATF beckons.
I'm sorry folks who did not understand this simple point quit, as the NRA, as flawed as it it, needs their support. I for one upgraded my membership from Life to Endowment to make up for it and to support LaPierre for having the guts to speak the truth.
Norm
1) This theory is ridiculous. Everyone knows the Mexican government did it with Bush and Cheney's collusion (and the help of the evil Zionists who paid off Halliburton) in retaliation for trying to close the border, which Dubya and friends want to keep open for cheap labor for their fat-cat friends. Duh.
2) Now not kidding: Munk is correct. LaPierre was referring prinicipally to the jackbooted A$$HOLES in the BATF, aka the Bureau of Alterations, Tales and Fabrications, aka the Baby Burning Bastards of Waco. (Actually, to be fair, I guess the FBI really gassed and then burned them. The ATF just machine gunned them and then lied about it. My bad.)
Bush Sr. quit in protest to that statement as he had only joined the NRA a couple of years before in 1992 as a Life member to get the pro-gun vote anyway and simply showed his true colors by quitting. He was never a friend to gun owners while in office, and is more ideologically akin to Boy Clinton in that regard than he is to his own son.
How anyone in another branch of the FedGov could take offense to that is a puzzle to me, unless perhaps they felt some kinship to the illegal and immoral tactics employed by the ATF, who are the unemployable dregs of the other alphabet soup agencies? Can't cut it in the FBI / DEA / Marshalls / US Police / DF&G / or as a local Sheriff's deputy? The ATF beckons.
I'm sorry folks who did not understand this simple point quit, as the NRA, as flawed as it it, needs their support. I for one upgraded my membership from Life to Endowment to make up for it and to support LaPierre for having the guts to speak the truth.
Norm
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Norm, several agents working for me in the Detroit Task Force, were sent to Waco on temporary detail during Waco. On their return, I believe they gave me the real story in confidence over a few beers. Unless you have been a part of the thin blue line, and been shot at (in my case, regularly) you probably would not instantly take offense at a characterization coming from some suit wearing mouthpiece like LaPierre. If LaPierre has led any charges for his country, I haven't heard about it.....correct me.
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I've read up on this, just in light of this discussion, and see multiple references to LaPierre bad-mouthing all Federal officers. This was not my understanding at all, and as you know the NRA plays an important role is supporting and training police and agents of all stripes.
I'm perfectly willing to concede to your characterization of LaPierre as a suit, but he was privy to countless tales of BATF abuses which led directly to his statement, and I don't see that he was lumping all Federal LE officers into the same criticism. FFL dealers were being harassed and driven out of business, and the number of errors the agency was making were becoming a huge problem. Perhaps the agency has bettered its perfomance over the past few years, but I haven't heard of it.
You are right, I have not been shot at, and have no clue as to what that must be like. I have had 3 family members as police officers and have some small inkling of what they face on a daily basis. I also know that I couldn't do it, as I don't have nearly the patience required.
There is also no doubt in my mind that the Branch Davidians were executed by an agency desperate to deflect criticism from their incredible Constitutional abuses with a staged media event, and then lied about what happened.
If I could sit down in confidence over a few beers with any of the ATF agents that were there, I would ask them two things: 1) what happened to the huge metal doors on the "compound" that would conclusively prove who fired first, that mysteriously went missing after the fire, and 2) where are all the supposed fully auto weapons the Davidians had? Guess they all "melted?" The FBI was left to try and clean up the mess those guys made.
You may be completely right about him, but whether LaPierre is a toad or not to me is irrelevant to the valid points I felt he was raising at the time, about the BATF specifically. Reading newsletters and the American Rifleman today, and the NRA still is sounding the alarm regularly about new problems with that group.
Norm
I'm perfectly willing to concede to your characterization of LaPierre as a suit, but he was privy to countless tales of BATF abuses which led directly to his statement, and I don't see that he was lumping all Federal LE officers into the same criticism. FFL dealers were being harassed and driven out of business, and the number of errors the agency was making were becoming a huge problem. Perhaps the agency has bettered its perfomance over the past few years, but I haven't heard of it.
You are right, I have not been shot at, and have no clue as to what that must be like. I have had 3 family members as police officers and have some small inkling of what they face on a daily basis. I also know that I couldn't do it, as I don't have nearly the patience required.
There is also no doubt in my mind that the Branch Davidians were executed by an agency desperate to deflect criticism from their incredible Constitutional abuses with a staged media event, and then lied about what happened.
If I could sit down in confidence over a few beers with any of the ATF agents that were there, I would ask them two things: 1) what happened to the huge metal doors on the "compound" that would conclusively prove who fired first, that mysteriously went missing after the fire, and 2) where are all the supposed fully auto weapons the Davidians had? Guess they all "melted?" The FBI was left to try and clean up the mess those guys made.
You may be completely right about him, but whether LaPierre is a toad or not to me is irrelevant to the valid points I felt he was raising at the time, about the BATF specifically. Reading newsletters and the American Rifleman today, and the NRA still is sounding the alarm regularly about new problems with that group.
Norm
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Actualy Munk I think if you read back you will find you said.
"Doing nothing is a distinctly European solution that did not work 60 years ago. They begged us to intervene then; now they beg us to leave be. .
In post. 113 on this thread.
No Strawman.
Take care.
Spiral
You're right, Spiral. I didn't remember because this is the entire quote, which puts it out of the range of a simple, "Europe did nothing"
I was thinking of Hitler's advance and Europe waiting too long. Britain's Prime Minister waited too long, and subsequently lost his job for it. This was in context of the discussion of the War on Terror-
"Here's the gift/curse of History; we may never know if the US saved the world's sorry butt or not, in a world of terror.
Doing nothing is a distinctly European solution that did not work well 60 years ago. They begged us to intervene then; now they beg us to leave be. They begged us to intervene in Bosnia, but not to interfere with the Genocide either.
The "Truth" is that Life presents challenges that are untenable; damned if you do or do not"
No strawman then; but to me, you took the quote out of context of the war on terror and the Bosnian example.
munk
I was thinking of Hitler's advance and Europe waiting too long. Britain's Prime Minister waited too long, and subsequently lost his job for it. This was in context of the discussion of the War on Terror-
"Here's the gift/curse of History; we may never know if the US saved the world's sorry butt or not, in a world of terror.
Doing nothing is a distinctly European solution that did not work well 60 years ago. They begged us to intervene then; now they beg us to leave be. They begged us to intervene in Bosnia, but not to interfere with the Genocide either.
The "Truth" is that Life presents challenges that are untenable; damned if you do or do not"
No strawman then; but to me, you took the quote out of context of the war on terror and the Bosnian example.
munk
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"Strawman nooses? " I see I have missed much here . Farbeit for me to contribute so far down the thread. We definitely have oratoires with depth to their knowledge . I so much wish I could hear the eloquence of their speech .
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Here's my one comment. I have made it before so there!
Given the large number of former administration officials who are people of conscience and have come forward after being outraged at some of the deceptions and missteps of this administration, if Bushco was some how complicit in 9/11, don't you think someone would have spilled the beans by now??
I mean I'd never totally rule OUT some sort of conspiracy, but the weight of the evidence really doesn't support it.
Given the large number of former administration officials who are people of conscience and have come forward after being outraged at some of the deceptions and missteps of this administration, if Bushco was some how complicit in 9/11, don't you think someone would have spilled the beans by now??
I mean I'd never totally rule OUT some sort of conspiracy, but the weight of the evidence really doesn't support it.