Learning the Hard way (cleaned up)

shinyedges said:
Ditch the expensive liner lock Emerson and get a zt 0620/0630 framelock with better steel and better customer service.

Emerson voids the warranty if you put a v edge on... that's wack.

Also they charge 14.00 for the lifetime warranty. If its warranted why charge the 14.00??

Zt charges 0.00 for warranty issues because its covered under the warranty. Seems simple to me.

Zt will send screws and other items in the mail for free.

Emerson charges you for screws or clips. Again wack.
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That's pretty much my take on Emersons as well, especially since the ZT0630 came out with it's much more practical blade shape versus the 0620. Vastly superior materials and manufacture, better service and support, and less likely to even need that warranty to begin with.
 
DAVE_M said:
bingo!
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*LOL* God, Dave...that had to be the quickest response in history. You read fast. :)

btw...that cue maker wasn't Schon, Fanelli or DP Custom was it? 8-ball guy here on a restored 1903 5' x 10' Brunswick-Balke-Collender "Arcade" snooker table, full conversion for pool..... But I suppose you play niner like about everyone else these days. :(

Never thought about it but I bet we have a few players within the midst of the BF forum. Duh!
 
EChoil said:
*LOL* God, Dave...that had to be the quickest response in history. You read fast. :)

btw...that cue maker wasn't Schon, Fanelli or DP Custom was it? 8-ball guy here on a restored 1903 5' x 10' Brunswick-Balke-Collender "Arcade" snooker table, full conversion for pool..... But I suppose you play niner like about everyone else these days. :(

Never thought about it but I bet we have a few players within the midst of the BF forum. Duh!
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Nope, this was from a few local makers. I currently play with an Ebony/Curly Maple 4 pointer with a G10 joit pin and without a weight bolt. There is no metal in the entire cue. :)
 
RX-79G said:
...Lee, thanks for your comments on my question about sharpening chisel grinds. I couldn't find anything about sharpening or edge angle(s) on Emerson's site.
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From Emerson's web site: "I frequently get emails and phone calls about using a sharpening tool, fixture, or gadget to sharpen an Emerson knife. The first question that is always asked is this, “What is the angle on the edge of an Emerson Knife?” Well I’m going to be real frank with you. I don’t know. I think it is somewhere between 25 degrees and 35 degrees."

There's a whole Sharpening section on the web site with pics.
 
I've sharpened my Commander so many times that 25 degrees is where it's at.

Every Emerson comes tight and greasy, yours isn't unique. Lots of folks take them apart and clean/lube and tweak the pivot right out of the box.
There is a thread or two discussing how to move the scales to get the lock and the blade where they need to be.
Nothing wrong with having expensive beaters, use it and enjoy.
 
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Hawk45 said:
...As mentioned, Emersons aren't for everyone and do have a break-in process. If this isn't something you want to do, you may want to steer clear. I look at is a way to get familiar with the knife. You want to keep your blade tight-ish and break it in. After a few weeks, break it down, clean it (no need for lube) and put it back together. Now it should be butter smooth. If you need a fast opening, you have the wave. These aren't meant to be loose pivot flickers. If you do loosen the pivot to make it "flickable" you are going to get blade movement (up/down/side/side) and cause the lock to wear wrong.

Most of their blades come with a v-grind bevels but a chisel edge. It's not great for slicing, but they get scary sharp real easy on a rod and strop. They aren't fancy, but are purpose built for tough work. Emersons are built as fighting knives, not EDC knives for cutting up apples or slicing paper for S&Gs, that's what Delica's are for.
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I can second your opinion almost word by word... Very well said.
I tried most of Emerson's knives and slowly came to them. Right now I got only one CQC7 and absolutely love it. It was exactly as the OP said - hard to open, sticky lock and so on, but after few hundred pulls from the pocket its action is exactly as I like it to be - not loosed to be easily thumb open, effortless to be waved.
In regard of their CS my experience with the online service is outstanding, very happy with the respond time and overall service. Didn't deal with warranty because I do most of the work on my knives and don't care much about warranty, but it's good to have it, no doubt about it.
My experience with his staff at the SHOT isle is awful... If you don't look like "operator", you are invisible for them. I personally don't care about it, but I observed this for years, I think they are little bit stuck up, but again - they can afford it, I have no beef about it, I'm looking at it as a curious fact.
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Quick question for the more knowledgeable with Emersons: What the liners on the CQC 7 are made of ? On mine they don't catch on the magnet but they are much harder than aluminum ( that I think will not be used for liners by Emerson. )
My CQC 7 is original, registered with theirs site, purchased from reputable guy with web-store, here in BF, I have no reason to believe it is fake.
The liners feels more like titanium but as far as I know, Emerson doesn't have titanium liners on their CQC models or I;m wrong ? I could use a little help on this, TIA.

Here is a decent picture of the knife in question :
( I did change the thumb-disk with satin finished-one, still have the original black)

rq6d.jpg
 
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The liners on my 7a and mini-7a are titanium on the lockside and stainless steel on the other. They're both 2014 knives and while I know this hasn't always been the case, I'm not 100% sure when it became the standard.
 
Guys, thanks for the input, I didn't know this.
On mine both liners are titanium I guess, because both of them are not catching on the magnet.
I flip this knife open a lot, hard when I wave it, didn't notice any blade play, especially vertical, lockup is about 55-60%
 
To with where I originally started. I did make many mistakes and I accept them.
I have moved forward and have re profiled the blade to 25 degrees on both sides and stroped them sharp as the dickens the steel of this knife is great for picking up a clean edge.
I am thinking about rounding out the edges of the scales and making them friendlier to my grip. At the same time, o will actively seek a knife maker that would be interested in making a custom liner lock (better fit and thicker). I'll leave the thread until accomplished.
Thank you all for your input.
 
BlackyHouston said:
To with where I originally started. I did make many mistakes and I accept them.
I have moved forward and have re profiled the blade to 25 degrees on both sides and stroped them sharp as the dickens the steel of this knife is great for picking up a clean edge.
I am thinking about rounding out the edges of the scales and making them friendlier to my grip. At the same time, o will actively seek a knife maker that would be interested in making a custom liner lock (better fit and thicker). I'll leave the thread until accomplished.
Thank you all for your input.
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You decided not to warranty the lock, and sharpened both sides instead?
 
Sonnydaze said:
Emersons are not for the faint at heart. Ernie makes the knife the way he wants it...NOT the way you want it.
Many folks love 'em; lots do NOT. I've had three.
IMO...wave is a good thing; chisel edge is crap; quality-control is less than the price of the knife; 154cm is prehistoric.
Opinions are worth what you pay for them...
:)
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I do want to say that this is a terrible business strategy. I'm not knocking the knives, because I've never owned one. I will say that I don't plan on owning one, and never really have.
My point is that just from a business perspective this is not a good idea, nor is it a successful business strategy. I would imagine that Emerson has to make their knives at least in part with respect to their customer base, or else they would no longer be in business, but they certainly seem to pay a lot less mind to what the vast majority of the community has to say.

I will say that most of the Emerson knives I have handled (again, don't own any) have been in very good working order. They were not something that I would personally pay the price tag for, but they worked for the people who owned them. The only real problem I have with Emerson is that a lot of people seem to buy them and use them assuming that they will need to be sent in to Emerson to have warranty work done simply from normal use.
I do not personally want to buy a knife that will need to be sent back in order to continue functioning in many cases after normal use. I would also like to have a blade that has a longer overall life than Emerson provides with their choice of steel/heat treat/grind. I have noticed that their 154cm is very soft. Sure, it is easy to sharpen, and will take a good edge, but it will lose the edge quite fast as well, and you have to take away a good bit of steel in order to bring the edge all the way back compared to a normal V grind.

In short, I just don't agree with either their business model nor their methods in execution. That is not to say that they are not great for some people. The reality is that they will always be a minority product though, as they are quite heavily specialized, and seem to have a very niche market.
I like some minority products over larger brands, many, in fact, but I do not like that one. Just me.

And to be perfectly honest, if I wanted to have a tactical-minded knife with a wave, that operated smoothly and effectively, with good fit and finish, and a steel that was of good quality, but still easy to sharpen, I would buy a Southern Grind Bad Monkey.
This model, to me, seems to improve on many of the philosophies that Emerson brings into his knives, and gives a better overall product. Sure, people aren't entirely familiar with how 14c18n acts when properly heat treated, but it is a very good steel with their process. Very tough, holds an edge MUCH better than Emerson's 154cm, and takes just as keen of an edge, with minimal effort. Not a super steel, but a very good ingot steel for sure.
 
Charr said:
I do want to say that this is a terrible business strategy.
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Same business strategy as Chris Reeve. Make an outstanding specialty product so well your customer base overwhelms your ability to supply it. Constantly fighting to meet demand, so much so they both had to expand their production lines.
 
Esav Benyamin said:
Same business strategy as Chris Reeve. Make an outstanding specialty product so well your customer base overwhelms your ability to supply it. Constantly fighting to meet demand, so much so they both had to expand their production lines.
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I will say that particular aspect is very much the same, and I do believe that is the right method, but over years of sales, Chris Reeve knives have made many more chnages to their product line than Emerson from my perspective.
I was mainly trying to address their lack of priority when it comes to user maintanance and feedback from the largest portion of their sales revenue-the average consumer. If they are intentionaly trying to neglect the average knife user in favor of only appealing to military and similar demographics, then that is their decision, but it makes it rather odd that they produce so many units and distribute to so many civilian retailers. Also, I would not really call Emerson's product "outstanding". At least not in an entirely positive sense.
Yes, emerson provides a variety of blade shapes and handle configurations. That is about it though. They blades will all be made of the same steel, have effectively the same cutting geometry (from my epxerience, YMMV), and I have seen little improvement in the Emerson product from one year to the next.

Chris Reeve already makes his knives to an extreme level of precision and care, but has made several modifications to the design over the years to further improve it, and also has made changes in the steels they use in order to find the most effective steel choice for their purposes. They have also lead in several innovations in the industry, not the least of which are the integral lock, S30V and S35VN (as much as I think S30V is a little bit of a cancer, I like S35VN a lot), and their perforated washers.
Emerson has created the wave feature...that's about it. I will admit, the wave is a very good tactical design for many people, but it is not something that has really revolutionized the market at all.
Pretty much all of the models that Emerson has ever made can be produced from the same pile of basic materials, with relatively no changes made, although many have requested the changes. I think that if you made an Emerson that was based on general user input, you would have a top-nothc product. But I do not see that happening.

Not to mention that I know I could take my Sebenza 25 and make it the only folding knife I use for several years, and as long as I know how to take care of it, I am extremely unlikely to ever encounter a problem with it in the least.
I could not say the same for any of the people I know who own Emersons, and I know they could not attempt to say it themselves. The lock interface itself provides that a large number of Emerson knives wil need to see the factory again at least once in their lives, not to mention the progressive removal of steel from the blade because of the soft material and poor cutting geometry.
CRK's S35VN may be soft, but I have seen it consistantly hold an edge much better than Emerson 154cm. It has better cutting geometry, a grind that allows for more sharpening life in the steel, and an edge bevel that is inherently designed to keep the edge stable.
Emerson's chisel-ground bevel is not at all a good edge for stability. It is very prone to rolling, especially with the very soft steel, and it requires more stock removal every time it is sharpened (because of both bevel and primary grind designs), unlike a Sebenza, where the stock removal for a sharpening is relatively low, and the edge can be better maintained by a strop.

Perhaps Emerson has done something very similar to CRK, but they certainly have done it through different methods. I do not persoanlly agree with Emerson's method of production, nor their idea of quality control.

But again, there is obviously a rather devout following to them, and I would assume there is a reason for that. I don't know what it is, but there is one. They have obviously achieved their following and their market through much different means than CRK, and the market for Emerson knives is likely smaller than the market for Emerson products, even given the very large price difference, but they do seem to have a stable market for the moment. I just don't think their methods trend towards that market remaining stable in the future.
Who knows. I guess at the end of the day it will be at least intersting to see how the market changes for them as time passes.
 
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