Les Robertson would be proud part duh, Continuation from another thread

Kohai999

Kohai999

Second Degree Cutter
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SharpByCoop said:
Well, just to provide a counterpoint: Michael Walker's knives are at the highest levels of knife collecting and consistently command five figures. They are as close (closer?) to a Dress Tactical as they are to an Art Knife.

Now, Todd didn't invent the Liner Lock™ I know, yet his styling/builds are very accepted and clean. 'Dress' Tacticals are not unlike ANY high end collectible (watches, guns, jewelery, etc.); there are many usable choices at a lower price point, but the mystique drives the top markets. And.... not all high end collectibles have to be innovators, as is MW.

STeven: is what you are alluding to akin to the collapse of the engraved interframe market in the early nineties?

Coop
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Jim, I don't find the Zipper Bladelocks to be remotely close to a Dress Tactical, they are in their own class.

There is no mystique in a "dress tactical". It is hero worship, it is "bro-ism" practiced at the highest level. These are only high end collectibles when compared to themselves, compared to a Loveless, a Moran, a Walker.....they are entry level, for now, it is true.

There was a specific mechanism driving the highly engraved interframe in the early nineties, Barrett-Smythe Galleries. There is no singular mechanism in tacticals. There are dealers that act as drivers, but there are also irrationally exuberant buyers with more money than sense. Once these fine young men marry and find other avenues with which to spend money(house, wife, children, expensive cars) and NEED to sell these knives, it may be, and probably will be a difficult thing to ROI.

Alpha Knife Supply said:
The market has shifted. Stag, pearl and ivory are not selling like they used to. Now the hot materials are stainless damascus, Timascus, zirconium, textured materials, fancy carbon fiber, ultra precision, high tech designs, pivot bearings, integral folders, non traditional engraving, etc.Chuck
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I love Chuck Bybee, he is a good friend of mine. We do in this case differ on perspective, Chuck. The market has in no way shifted. The buyers of your product may be different, and what they produce may be different...but I assure you, top quality ivory, stag and pearl handled knives by makers old and new are selling like hotcakes. The materials you mention and the knives from the makers you follow are certainly hot, but they represent a SEGMENT of THE MARKET, they are not THE MARKET.

Alpha Knife Supply said:
The knives are selling for high prices because collectors are willing to pay the price. I'm very happy for Todd, and he is not the only knife maker getting high prices. I don't think a few collectors are driving up the prices. Look at the number of collectors attending lotteries at knife shows. The demand for the knives is driving up the prices. Just like demand drove up prices for Loveless knives.

I've noticed a change in new collectors in the last few years. The new collectors are mostly young men with lots of disposable cash. They were born after the introduction of compact discs. A smart phone is a necessity, not a luxury. These guys want high tech knife designs with the latest materials. The majority of them are not interested in forged carbon steel.

The market has shifted.

Chuck
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The collectors attending shows like the Tactical Invitational are there for a few makers represented out of the field. At the Tactical Invitational I attended in January, not everyone sold out, not everyone chose what they were drawn for....there were literally 5-9 makers that were deemed "hot" and that was where the action was, and it was the same 4-5 collectors and 10 dealers looking for those pieces. I was told by a prominent purveyor that he could not sell knives that had wood handles....that is retarded...if that was the case, all of us with bog oak, desert ironwood, african blackwood....handled knives should no longer consider them worthy of trying to sell. It is laziness and pursuit of low hanging fruit, ie quick buck that drove that statement.

The new collectors have always been young men with disposable cash, the collectors that go long have always been old men with disposable cash, it all depends upon which market you are interested in.

Again, the market has not shifted...who plays in what segment is always in flux.

That is where I sit, feel free to discuss, I find the subject fascinating, and one that involves much skin in the game. My own involvement is about 40% tacticals, and 60% dressed up working knives. I recently tripled my money selling a nice knife by a very good maker in the tactical market.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
Kohai999 said:
I love Chuck Bybee, he is a good friend of mine. We do in this case differ on perspective, Chuck. The market has in no way shifted. The buyers of your product may be different, and what they produce may be different...but I assure you, top quality ivory, stag and pearl handled knives by makers old and new are selling like hotcakes. The materials you mention and the knives from the makers you follow are certainly hot, but they represent a SEGMENT of THE MARKET, they are not THE MARKET.
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STeven, I could not agree more.

One of the reasons why you see less and less of these knives at shows is that many top quality natural materials have become like hens teeth.

Try and buy a top quality exhibition grade pair of stag slabs big enough for a larger loveless style fighter and you will see what I mean. Many of the older natural materials are now heavily restricted and controlled, or banned outright.

The reason why the fancy synthetics are selling is that it is easy for the maker to buy it right off a website and he knows exactly what he will get. Also you can reproduce the same knife over and over with a uniform look. You cannot do that with many natural materials.
 
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I'll bring up a comparison point for conversation's sake: The tactical knife 'craze' and its buyers may be younger and not established.

In the realm of Classic Cars, the biggest dollars will and are being spent on rare exotics. However, the return of 60's/70's Musclecars and the resultant monies that are being spent on them bears a parallel.

Like knives, new interest is on hi-tech and sharp lines. In the price arena of musclecars, it's the Baby Boomers driving this up and they aren't young. However, they aren't the old guard either.

These new guys grew up on titanium and synthetics. They will respect the classic materials and styles, but their money and those that come right after them will probably sustain this.

Remember Loveless' knives have rarely been 'affordable'. They were always a high-point leader in the using knives category, right? I'll bet in the eighties, collectors were grousing about the cost of RWL's work and pricing, too.

We shall see. :)

Coop
 
EXCELLENT post STeven. As usual, your perception is keen!

A similar scenario carries over into the world of cars and motorcycles. The young go for the tricked out Honda Civics and Race Replica motorcycles and the older folks with lots of disposable income roll with the Porsches, Ferraris, Lambos and exotic motorcycles.

Peter
 
I am telling you as a supplier, stag, ivory and pearl are not selling like they did five years ago. Sales of these items are down more than 90%. I've heard the same from other suppliers. The decrease in sales cannot be attributed to price. We have not changed prices in more than five years. Wood sales has also slowed.

Large stag scales are extremely rare. If you do see a pair of stag scales you like, buy them! Last year I had a chance to buy 6"x2" full popcorn scales for $400 wholesale. I passed because the price was too high. I've not seen ANY good stag since. We've had nice white MOP on clearance for two years. I gave the last knifemaker who bought MOP 10 pair for free so would not have to pay tax on them again for another year. Ancient ivory is selling slowly. We are seriously considering closing out the ivory. We are not taking ivory or stag to Blade show this year. Last year we did not sell enough to justify taking it again.

I look at shows and see tactical knifemakers holding very well attended lotteries. Some of the tactical makers are selling knives via open bid. Some new tactical knife makers (less than 5 years experience) have multi-year waiting lists. Look at the Jeremy Marsh knife engraved by Tom Ferry that was sold by a purveyor less than two weeks ago. The knife sold for $6,000 in less than two minutes. Was this an anomaly? I don't think it was. Jeremy's knives have been selling well at his table and on the secondary market. I see other knifemakers with beautiful ivory handled damascus knives selling for ridiculously low prices. I feel bad when I see a knife with $700-$800 in materials selling for $800-$900.

A purveyor saying wood handles knives won't sell is an indication that a change in the market has occurred. I don't like this news, but it does reinforce the point I made. It has taken me a long time to recognize and accept the shift. It was hard for me to accept because I'm heavily invested in knives and materials that are now less popular. Last year I decided to sell a few knives to a purveyor. I was told he would only accept the knives on consignment because the knives would be slow to sell. I decided to keep the knives and hope they will get popular again.

I strongly feel the market has shifted, and it is a broad based shift. I have sales data and personal observations to back up my opinion.

BTW, the knifemakers and collectors who are part of the shift rarely, if ever, post here.

Chuck
 
Good post STeven, I tend to agree.

Chuck makes some good points too. I stopped using white pearl 9-10 years ago, because I couldn't sell knives with it and nobody asked for it. But I did buy more stag at my last show than I've ever bought at any show. And bought a huge pile of stag from an individual a while back. Fossil ivory is still my hottest material and has been for many years.

I have not had any trouble getting good natural handle material. But it does cost $$$. :)
 
so, I understand that a guy like Loveless' knives are highly sought after because he was a true innovator, who stayed with the craft for the duration of his working life. His approach to ergonomics, his construction method, his experimentation with stainless steels designed for cutlery, his approach to design- he really did revolutionize knives. The same should be said about other makers, but really, that pool of guys is pretty small.

Wrt contemporary tactical folder guys, there are a handful of innovators, some of whom have been mentioned, but a great many more whose work command obscene amounts of cash, (relatively obscene, and usually on the secondary market) whose only innovation is their design work. Don't get me wrong, design is really important, but I think there is a ceiling where, if things are looked at in terms of long term investment, there has to be more to the story than JUST good looking, (or 'unique' looking) knives. I look at contemporary makers like Flavio Ikoma, whose designs are unique and interesting, but who ALSO revolutionized pivot technology and gained notoriety for that. With that being said, in the fullness of time, if he decides to stop making knives, neither his innovative approach nor his unique designs are a guarantee that his knives will become more valuable over time. I'm trying really hard not to use names here, so take the names mentioned purely as examples.

It strikes me that, while generally speaking, people spending large wads of cash on knives might be seen as a good thing, these knives might not hold their value over time. Is there a sort of 'tactical knife bubble'? In 5 years, are the knives which command $2000 now, (which may have sold for $500 5 years ago) going to be worth more than the cost of materials? I suppose most of that depends on whether the maker stays in the game, keeping their name valuable by constantly innovating their approach to making knives, their approach to designing them and the marketing of their name/brand.
 
Alpha Knife Supply said:
I am telling you as a supplier, stag, ivory and pearl are not selling like they did five years ago. Sales of these items are down more than 90%. I've heard the same from other suppliers. The decrease in sales cannot be attributed to price. We have not changed prices in more than five years. Wood sales has also slowed.
Chuck
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Doesn't seem to be any substantial shortage of custom knives being made with beautiful stag and ivory handles. Kind of makes one wonder where this handle material is coming from. Evidently, from the above, it's not coming from suppliers.
 
Kohai999 said:
The new collectors have always been young men with disposable cash, the collectors that go long have always been old men with disposable cash, it all depends upon which market you are interested in.
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:eek: :D

Sorry, couldn't resist that one. ;)
 
Alpha Knife Supply said:
I am telling you as a supplier, stag, ivory and pearl are not selling like they did five years ago. Sales of these items are down more than 90%. I've heard the same from other suppliers. The decrease in sales cannot be attributed to price. We have not changed prices in more than five years. Wood sales has also slowed.Chuck
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Chuck, my position is as a buyer and seller of knives, a collector, a materials buyer, a professioal seller of production knives to retailers and not the end user. I believe that your focus on materials that your buyers want will skew your numbers. People come to AKS for timascus, stainless damascus, synthetic materials...... They go to Culpepper for pearl and Charles Turnage for ivory. That is the way that supply market is shaking up. For myself, if I want black lip pearl, I'll always look to Culpepper, hopefully at Blade, first....then I look elsewhere. A materials buyer tends to go where they can find what they want first. If you have exhibition grade white pearl in a 1 1/4" x 3/16" x 4" variety or better, btw, I'll take it.

Alpha Knife Supply said:
Large stag scales are extremely rare. If you do see a pair of stag scales you like, buy them! Last year I had a chance to buy 6"x2" full popcorn scales for $400 wholesale. I passed because the price was too high. I've not seen ANY good stag since. We've had nice white MOP on clearance for two years. I gave the last knifemaker who bought MOP 10 pair for free so would not have to pay tax on them again for another year. Ancient ivory is selling slowly. We are seriously considering closing out the ivory. We are not taking ivory or stag to Blade show this year. Last year we did not sell enough to justify taking it again.Chuck
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I have two sets of amber dyed stag, premium grade, 1 3/8" x 1/2" x 5" that I got from Culpepper for $100.00 each 3 years ago at Blade. I followed S.R. Johnson over to Culpepper and picked up on a couple pieces that he rejected because they were not long enough, but he liked the figure and shape. I would do so again at twice the price. Once makers use up their materials, they buy new materials from whatever source they can find it, but look to their favorite sources first. If you are their favorite source when they need new materials they WILL buy from you...cost is often not the most important factor in this, because the maker can often push the price onto the buyer/collector. If you are saying that carbon fiber is more sought after in the entire custom knife market than premium stag or ivory, I'll have to challenge you on that. Again, someone like Charles Turnage does not sell synthetics as far as I know, but he has an entire business built around ancient ivories.

Alpha Knife Supply said:
I look at shows and see tactical knifemakers holding very well attended lotteries. Some of the tactical makers are selling knives via open bid. Some new tactical knife makers (less than 5 years experience) have multi-year waiting lists. Look at the Jeremy Marsh knife engraved by Tom Ferry that was sold by a purveyor less than two weeks ago. The knife sold for $6,000 in less than two minutes. Was this an anomaly? I don't think it was. Jeremy's knives have been selling well at his table and on the secondary market. I see other knifemakers with beautiful ivory handled damascus knives selling for ridiculously low prices. I feel bad when I see a knife with $700-$800 in materials selling for $800-$900.Chuck
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Jeremy Marsh is a maker that is in the category of makers that I referenced in my initial post....time will tell if the prices that his work commands will be sustainable. I remember when you said that Ken Onion was going to be the hottest maker in tactical knives. I think Ken's work is superb, and would love to own a great one for a couple grand, which is pretty much do-able these days when you can find them. Back in the heyday, they were going easily for $6,000 if not more on the aftermarket. Same thing has happened with Allen Elishewitz, Jerry Hossum, Tom Mayo and the list truly goes on. Allen makes SUPERB knives, truly trick, and was selling some premium specimens at The Gathering last year for $800.00. There is no sense to this current market segment, Chuck, it doesn't go for the best in a category, it goes for the most "love" in a category, and the uniqueness of an aesthetic often figures into it. Take the most refined beautiful folder with the juiciest materiels, build something 180 degrees different, and that is what these kids want. I don't feel bad when a maker ties up a lot of money into materials and cannot ROI, if they paid attention to their market position, and did not bring skills worthy of the materials, it was a foolhardy mission to attempt it. Have a buyer lined up when you start experimenting outside of your "natural" market.

Alpha Knife Supply said:
A purveyor saying wood handles knives won't sell is an indication that a change in the market has occurred. I don't like this news, but it does reinforce the point I made. It has taken me a long time to recognize and accept the shift. It was hard for me to accept because I'm heavily invested in knives and materials that are now less popular. Last year I decided to sell a few knives to a purveyor. I was told he would only accept the knives on consignment because the knives would be slow to sell. I decided to keep the knives and hope they will get popular again.Chuck
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A purveyor saying that wood handles will not sell is an indication that he cannot sell wood handles, and nothing else. I asked a couple of my friends who sells a couple thousand dollars of knives a day if they were having problems with wood handles in the foreign(Russian, Chinese) markets, and....they were not....it was not an issue. This purveyor is lazy, and not informed, because he is not going after the truly profitable markets, which is his choice. Good decision to keep the knives, let me know if there is anything that I might like.

Alpha Knife Supply said:
I strongly feel the market has shifted, and it is a broad based shift. I have sales data and personal observations to back up my opinion.

BTW, the knifemakers and collectors who are part of the shift rarely, if ever, post here.Chuck
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The USN Gathering is becoming the dominant show on the west coast....there is a segment of the market that is emerging, is visible and vocal. It does not represent, YET, 1/2 the market....there are slipjoints, there is kitchen cutlery, there is the forged segment, sword segment, traditional hunter, fighter and bowie segment. They all involve passionate collectors, lots of money and top notch makers....you have to look at the big picture.

There is a Sword SF on BladeForums, the top makers, collectors and practitioners don't post there. What we see is the absolute tip of the iceberg on BladeForums, and that is directed to all of us.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
Great discussion!

Well executed designs keep on selling.

I have seen the explosion in sales, lotteries and auctions, time will tell if these knives hold their value. :)
 
Daniel Fairly Knives said:
Great discussion!
Well executed designs keep on selling.
I have seen the explosion in sales, lotteries and auctions, time will tell if these knives hold their value. :)
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WOW, I'm glad my humble little original post on my 90's tacticals spilled over to this.
And it fits, since my concern was how well the "it" knives of then held their value and demand for 15 years!
Granted that people like Terzuola were more than just the latest hot thing back then, esp. since he literally wrote THE book on tactical knives.

When I got back into collecting in 2010, I had seen older posts discussing similar Carsons to mine that had gone higher than $800 (double the original price).
I figured when I saw a non serrated version of my original Carson M4 for only a bit more than what I paid in the 90's it would be a wise/shrewd (and pleasurable) investment.
Same with the later style Terzuola "bolster lock" ATCF I ran into for a decent price.
I had seen recent postings asking around 750, twice the 375 they use to go for when I got mine in the 90's.
Granted, that there's other elements involved in the price increase like inflation,
if these were not deemed worthy by collectors or today's market, the demand and price would net continue to rise all these years.

The same way it took 15 years to see what knives of that era would still be collectible in today's even more highly competitive market,
I can't wait to see what another 15 years will do for my favorite 90's tacticals.
And like the muscle car analogy used, classics may go in and out of favor at times, but over the long haul quality and originality goes a long way and holds its value if not go up in price.
I have a feeling these original early tactical folders will always have a place in knife history and collections,
But it would be interesting to see what in demand makers of today will be just a small footnote 15 years from now.

Not that every maker back in the 90's was the best, some have been forgotten.
But in today's huge competitive market, with more and more makers jumping in to make a name for themselves,
I have a feeling there will be many more that can't sustain a name long term.

We'll see. . . .
 
Alpha Knife Supply said:
I am telling you as a supplier, stag, ivory and pearl are not selling like they did five years ago. Sales of these items are down more than 90%. I've heard the same from other suppliers. The decrease in sales cannot be attributed to price. We have not changed prices in more than five years. Wood sales has also slowed.

Large stag scales are extremely rare. If you do see a pair of stag scales you like, buy them! Last year I had a chance to buy 6"x2" full popcorn scales for $400 wholesale. I passed because the price was too high. I've not seen ANY good stag since. We've had nice white MOP on clearance for two years. I gave the last knifemaker who bought MOP 10 pair for free so would not have to pay tax on them again for another year. Ancient ivory is selling slowly. We are seriously considering closing out the ivory. We are not taking ivory or stag to Blade show this year. Last year we did not sell enough to justify taking it again.


Chuck
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Kevin Jones said:
Doesn't seem to be any substantial shortage of custom knives being made with beautiful stag and ivory handles. Kind of makes one wonder where this handle material is coming from. Evidently, from the above, it's not coming from suppliers.
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Well, something here does not compute for me. I have two orders I am working on with makers who are very well known (everyone here knows them) and they both told me recently (within the past month) that they will not make stag-handled knives anymore because of the difficulty they have finding suitable, quality, stag material.


Could it be that low quality stag material is plentiful, but difficult to sell, while high quality stag material sells like hotcakes but is harder to find than ever before (and/or at higher prices)? And perhaps the same applies to mammoth ivory?
 
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