Les Robertson would be proud part duh, Continuation from another thread

[JBS TOOLMAKER]

Machine-made ?

 

[Wulf]

I'm referring to the precision machined patterns and textures some makers use on their handles. I've never seen one done like that using natural materials, because they don't possess the uniformity to create the desired visual effect.

 

[RogerP]

Nobody wants an EDC knife with stag or walnut scales. The fact is Carbon fiber, G-10, Micarta are better materials for the tool.
Aesthetics are purely opinion. Stag may look great, I build knives that are intended to be carried and abused.

Really? Nobody? I clearly didn't get the memo. Most my working fixed blades have wood handles, one has ivory and my sole EDC folder has pearl.

Knives have served humankind as en effective and essential tool for a loooooong time before plastic was ever invented. I wouldn't trade the handles above for two heaping armfuls of G10. My knives are carried and used. I see no virtue in intentionally abusing a knife.

 

[Snody]

Really? Nobody? I clearly didn't get the memo. Most my working fixed blades have wood handles, one has ivory and my sole EDC folder has pearl.

Dude, that piece of Desert Ironwood should be illegal. That is way too beautiful.
That wood affects my brain like Crack..
I am serious, I just want to touch it, cut a piece off and smoke it..
That knife is quite simply superb.
Huge Respect from Texas.

 

[Lorien]

I feel, that at some point, the market will realize that it has no appetite to abuse their expensive knives in general. What then?
As for the second point, that is certainly true in many contexts. But in the context of long term investment value? No one knows!

Maybe that's what makes this fun- gambling on the unknown often causes innovation, besides.

 

[JBS TOOLMAKER]

Really? Nobody? I clearly didn't get the memo. Most my working fixed blades have wood handles, one has ivory and my sole EDC folder has pearl.

Knives have served humankind as en effective and essential tool for a loooooong time before plastic was ever invented. I wouldn't trade the handles above for two heaping armfuls of G10. My knives are carried and used. I see no virtue in intentionally abusing a knife.

My point is...all the knives in these photos are way more beautiful than anything I do.
I couldn't make myself EDC any of these for fear of marring them up.
I mean NO dis respect.
Also I don't mean intentional abuse of knives....but stuff happens, they get dropped on concrete floors, they collect grit from working in welding shops etc.
I just don't see the practicality of putting a beautiful piece of Ironwood on an EDC. If I dropped a knife like that and even put a tiny scratch on it...well you know.
Please don't misunderstand me. Every knife has it's place / market. This is my opinion.

 

[Wulf]

JBS I really want to encourage you to give stag a try. It truly is a tough, hard use material that can take some serious abuse. And it's pretty too!

For folder scales you can find some really nice pieces at reasonable prices too. Maybe it adds $20 in material costs to the knife but I bet that if you placed one on your table alongside your other knives you'd receive a very positive response from your customers and perhaps even attract a few new guys to your work. I agree with your statement that "every knife has it's place / market," so why limit yourself to just one place or just one market?

Looking forward to checking out your work at Blade, by the way

 

[Lorien]

from what I understand, stabilized wood is impregnated(?) with pretty much the same type of epoxy as fabric laminates.
Alone, the epoxy is pretty damn tough, but it's the fibers within the composite which give it major toughness. I'm not sure how much it matters whether those fibers are woven or whether they occur naturally.
I guess what I'm saying is that stabilized wood, (some types more than other likely) should be about as tough as a standard fabric/epoxy composite.
Carbon fiber might be the winner when it comes to VERY longterm imperviousness to degradation, but it would be the epoxy that would deteriorate before the carbon fibers, so that might even be moot since the composite relies on both materials in order to be of use.

Biggest determinant of durability I think is the quality of the materials used, and whether they were used correctly.

While we do not know perfectly the staying power of today's composite materials, outside of accelerated testing, we do know that wood can last 6000+ years, (older than the planet, according to some zealots lol) and that bone and horn can last several times longer- in the right conditions, of course.

 

[rickmenefee]

I can get u 500 sets at your house tomorrow send payment info!

I'll have these makers contact you to get the stag for my knives.

 

[Don Hanson III]

Three of my favorite EDC folders have stag and ivory scales. One other has micarta, all are slip joints!

Edit to add; All have carbon steel blades!

The two hunters I use have stag scales, one is 20 years old.

I don't have much use for a 'tactical' knife...

 

[jdm61]

Kevin, the intimidating part about the handles on those knives to me as a maker are not the shaping of the stag scales, but the shaping of the bolts/pins that secure them.

Yep, Joe that's what I was getting at. Doing a good job on the 'fit-up' and shaping of the stag while retaining that desirable stag color/look/texture can be fairly difficult as opposed to using wood or synthetic handle materials.
Here's better photos of the Fisk knives you referenced which demonstrate a complex but well executed use of stag handle material.

 

[RogerP]

Dude, that piece of Desert Ironwood should be illegal. That is way too beautiful.
That wood affects my brain like Crack..
I am serious, I just want to touch it, cut a piece off and smoke it..
That knife is quite simply superb.
Huge Respect from Texas.

My man Mike - thanks for the kind words - that is indeed a terrific knife and the wood looks like some kind of science fiction fantasy version of ironwood, but is as real as it gets. Made by Samuel Lurquin.

My point is...all the knives in these photos are way more beautiful than anything I do.
I couldn't make myself EDC any of these for fear of marring them up.
I mean NO dis respect.
Also I don't mean intentional abuse of knives....but stuff happens, they get dropped on concrete floors, they collect grit from working in welding shops etc.
I just don't see the practicality of putting a beautiful piece of Ironwood on an EDC. If I dropped a knife like that and even put a tiny scratch on it...well you know.
Please don't misunderstand me. Every knife has it's place / market. This is my opinion.

Fair enough. But my point is that natural handle materials are in no way incompatible with the use of a knife as a tool, nor does the selection of synthetics for handle material necessarily make the knife better as a tool (though in certain specific applications, it definitely can). Both are entirely valid choices.

Secondly, making a knife beautiful does not - and indeed should not - diminish it its functionality. All of the knives I posted have seen use (as distinct from abuse) and all are in terrific shape. A plain satin finished carbon steel blade is super-easy to maintain.

Finally - I took no offense - just felt the need to present a counter-point to the somewhat sweeping generalization that there wasn't any demand for using knives with natural handle materials. While there are indeed segments of the market where synthetics dominate, they don't rule all segments.

 

[jdm61]

Just so we are clear on why certain materials, even uber expensive natural ones, are good for USE as knife handles, ivory is one of the few materials that actually gets sticky when it gets wet with blood as opposed to getting slick. I know that is handy when skinning a deer, but wouldn't that also be a spiffy feature for a knife designed to deanimate your enemy? ;-)

My man Mike - thanks for the kind words - that is indeed a terrific knife and the wood looks like some kind of science fiction fantasy version of ironwood, but is as real as it gets. Made by Samuel Lurquin.



Fair enough. But my point is that natural handle materials are in no way incompatible with the use of a knife as a tool, nor does the selection of synthetics for handle material necessarily make the knife better as a tool (though in certain specific applications, it definitely can). Both are entirely valid choices.

Secondly, making a knife beautiful does not - and indeed should not - diminish it its functionality. All of the knives I posted have seen use (as distinct from abuse) and all are in terrific shape. A plain satin finished carbon steel blade is super-easy to maintain.

Finally - I took no offense - just felt the need to present a counter-point to the somewhat sweeping generalization that there wasn't any demand for using knives with natural handle materials. While there are indeed segments of the market where synthetics dominate, they don't rule all segments.

 

[Robert Dark]

Really? Nobody? I clearly didn't get the memo.

Roger,
I had almost forgotten that knife. I always liked the way that knife just seems to say, "USE ME".

I love using good natural materials when I can get quality for a decent price. Stag is a favorite, but increasingly difficult to obtain without breaking the bank.

The look and feel of good Ironwood can't be beat. In addition, many stabilized woods are beautiful (Look at some of Nick Wheeler's blades).

I will say that I will use Micarta in a heart-beat if I need to keep the price a tad bit lower. I have used G-10, but don't really like it. In my opinion, it adds unnecessary weight and is hard on saw blades and lungs.

Robert

 

[Kohai999]

My point is...all the knives in these photos are way more beautiful than anything I do.
I couldn't make myself EDC any of these for fear of marring them up.
I mean NO dis respect.
Also I don't mean intentional abuse of knives....but stuff happens, they get dropped on concrete floors, they collect grit from working in welding shops etc.
I just don't see the practicality of putting a beautiful piece of Ironwood on an EDC. If I dropped a knife like that and even put a tiny scratch on it...well you know.
Please don't misunderstand me. Every knife has it's place / market. This is my opinion.

Roger made the knife marked "1st knife" by himself. He had a really good teacher, Dan Farr, but the design and materials choice were his. He's not a machining guru or a forging wizard...just a good man with a keen eye and credible eye/hand coordination. Roger is truly an example of "if he can do it, most people can", and that is meant without taking anything at all away from him, he could be a very fine knifemaker if he wanted to full time, but am pretty sure his family would resent the pay cut.

EDC knives can be made out of any material a maker pleases, and if the maker is good, and the design sound, usually sell well. I have EDC'd a Don Hanson knife with brown lip pearl that is amazingly beautiful because it would be a crime not to, and also carry a John W. Smith Evolution that takes a pretty sound thrashing and comes back for more. My income is comfortable, but I am far from wealthy.


I find these knives equally beautiful in different ways, like enjoying both a sports car and a pickup.

This very civilized discussion has brought up many great points, and I have tried to make a few good points myself.

The MARKET has not changed, but segments of it has. What I mean by this is, excepting that things are always changing, a Loveless, Moran, Walker, Lake, Horn....still sell readily, to a wide range of people, for high prices.

Slipjoint knives made by top makers still sell readily, usually in organic handle materials, for very good prices. It's probably harder to make a multi-blade slipjoint folder than any other type of folder, and they sell for extremely low prices at this point in relation to other types of knives. On the aftermarket, an excellent Tony Bose(the absolute pinnacle of quality in a hand made slipjoint folder) sells for somewhere around $3,000.

What is changing in the market is that $3,000.00 is entry level on the aftermarket for a highly sought after tactical maker. This is solely due to irrational buyers and astute dealers, seeing an opportunity and taking advantage of it. The makers really cannot be blamed. There really isn't fault in this per se, it just hurts the community if the irrational buyers cannot ROI, and wind up leaving the community in disgust, unwilling to accept their responsibility for the loss. I have seen it so many times before, and it really doesn't benefit anyone.

Those who have been collecting knives for a while cannot help but try to benefit the entire community. New collectors often don't see things that way.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

 

[RogerP]

STeven - thank you my friend.

Robert - thank you also. The first time I got to use that knife to dress out a deer was a proud moment - I was very pleased with how it performed.

 

[Lorien]

What is changing in the market is that $3,000.00 is entry level on the aftermarket for a highly sought after tactical maker. This is solely due to irrational buyers and astute dealers, seeing an opportunity and taking advantage of it. The makers really cannot be blamed. There really isn't fault in this per se, it just hurts the community if the irrational buyers cannot ROI, and wind up leaving the community in disgust, unwilling to accept their responsibility for the loss. I have seen it so many times before, and it really doesn't benefit anyone.

Excellent point, and very well made!

 

[canineforge]

Kevin, I have not worked with stag scales, but good quality stag carvers are, IMO, the ultimate lazy man's natural handle material. They require minimal shaping, etc.. You basically build the knife to fit the handle.

Looks easy to me.

Like the discussion here. Hope to get 6,000+ years out of this one.

- Joe

 

[RogerP]

Mmmmmm. Popcorn.

 

[betzner]

What is changing in the market is that $3,000.00 is entry level on the aftermarket for a highly sought after tactical maker. This is solely due to irrational buyers and astute dealers, seeing an opportunity and taking advantage of it. The makers really cannot be blamed. There really isn't fault in this per se, it just hurts the community if the irrational buyers cannot ROI, and wind up leaving the community in disgust, unwilling to accept their responsibility for the loss. I have seen it so many times before, and it really doesn't benefit anyone.

Those who have been collecting knives for a while cannot help but try to benefit the entire community. New collectors often don't see things that way.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

Substitute "Loveless-style maker" and that's what was also going on prior to the economic debacle in 2008. Same scenario. They had quite a run and a few of those makers still command higher pricing, though not to the extent as before the downturn.