LETS SEE THOSE MAGNIFICENT HARNESS JACKS

That's getting nearly as good as on Paper isn't it Charlie! :thumbsup:


Learning from this is for myself not to jump to conclusions that Empire made the Knife immediately when I see an Empire punch - unless I guess in the case the Knife was a Wholesaler brand (lets say for example "Townley") and not a manufacturer - in your opinion Charlie could one be forgiven to going back to the thinking that Empire being the maker?

All these questions come with answers

Wouldn't it be so great having such paper work/ statements of the likes: Empire supplies Waynorth Cutlery 200 x Punches at such n such date.. :eek:

Thanks for posting this Charlie - the subject gets fascinating!
 
Campbellclanman said:
in your opinion Charlie could one be forgiven to going back to the thinking that Empire being the maker?
Click to expand...
Of course - always!! I think the majority of the time, a punch jack would be made completely by Empire.
We don't know how well those punches sold by themselves, but they would be tempting because the process differs from most blades!!
We see only glimpses of cutlery history!!
 
danno50 said:
Love those Keen Kutter harness jacks, Duncan! E.C.Simmons actually gained controlling interest in the Walden Knife Co. in 1902.
Looking in the guide to Keen Kutter pocket knives, by Sellens, the ebony handled knives appear to be pattern K72086, which Sellens say was in the Simmons catalogs from 1905 through to 1911. The bone handled knife with the great sabre ground spear blade is a K72498, which Sellens says was in the Simmons catalogs from 1917 through to 1929. With the lack of a stamped pattern number, I would think that it dates to the earlier part of this period. I would agree that all of the Keen Kutters were made by the Walden Knife Co., maybe with the exception of the one with the Alvord punch. Whether or not it was made by Empire or Walden was, I believe, briefly discussed at some point earlier in this thread?? Not sure if the discussion was on this particular knife, or centred around whether Empire ever supplied punches to other manufacturers?

Here is a poor resolution of the K72498 from a 1917 catalog I found online at Schrades-R-Us. I had asked the owner of the site for permission to post images from the site on Blade Forums. I cannot find any Keen Kutter catalogs online that date earlier than 1912.

View attachment 2750592
Click to expand...
Hi Dan ( and others here in Harness Jack land) :)

I was doing a little research on some Punches this afternoon and I came across this posting of yours a few years ago, showing the two Ebony Harness Jack Knives K72086.
This catalog seems to be the catalogue following the 1905 - 1911 Catalogue. This Catalogue I an referencing is the time frame 1912. Seen in this thread :

Traditional Folders and Fixed blades Home Page.

Vintage Knife Catalogs & Ads (Images & Links Only).​

Page 4- post #67.

The Walden Punch really made me dig for some time and I had to really "dog it out", so I am quite pleased I have the time frame of the Harness Jack Knives correct, I sat for a long time looking at those Punches.
Now when we glance through these older Catalogues of any of these older Great Cutlery Companies, it makes me realize just how amazing the quality of Knives available in such quantities!

I have to say, the posts in the Catalogue section must have taken you some time, I am sure many of people along with me thank you Dan, I always appreciate your posts that are a pleasure to read every time , I think your taste in knives is superb, so thank you my friend! :thumbsup:

So good to see them in a Catalogue, and I saw that Sabre as well 😍.

The Internet is said to be the beginning of what we see much social chaos, but here within Traditional Knives I think this is a good place to be.
 
Last edited:
paulhilborn said:
Apologies if I posted this here before but you know what they say about the mind, it's a terrible thing to waste;):D
4ONyaX.jpg
Click to expand...
I have never seen such Crisp conditioned Harness Jacks compared to what Charlie has been so kind to share with us. I am not sure- but these Knives really grab a hold of you and you can get absolutely lost in a photo displaying such knives.

Paul Hilborn shared this mighty example of a Schrade Cut Co Holyoke Belt Co, just a superb example, Paul a few years ago gifted me a Holyoke, I was quite blown away! Thank you once again my friend.
So one day I was shopping and picked up another! and too my surprise it was an earlier one again as it has the Schrade arched Stamp!

c7wvvNP.jpg


NbQdMrM.jpg


This guy here also - like others of this time frame has the PAT'D APL'D FOR stamp pile-side of the Tang, you dont see any patent stamping after this on that Beautiful Schrade Punch - it really is!

wUa2QBA.jpg


Pic Bone!! Just Beautiful!

OTggkII.jpg


SiPYd7m.jpg


Edited for extra Photo placed in.
 
Last edited:
Campbellclanman said:
Hi Dan ( and others here in Harness Jack land) :)

I was doing a little research on some Punches this afternoon and I came across this posting of yours a few years ago, showing the two Ebony Harness Jack Knives K72086.
This catalog seems to be the catalogue following the 1905 - 1911 Catalogue. This Catalogue I an referencing is the time frame 1912. Seen in this thread :

Traditional Folders and Fixed blades Home Page.

Vintage Knife Catalogs & Ads (Images & Links Only).​

Page 4- post #67.

The Walden Punch really made me dig for some time and I had to really "dog it out", so I am quite pleased I have the time frame of the Harness Jack Knives correct, I sat for a long time looking at those Punches.
Now when we glance through these older Catalogues of any of these older Great Cutlery Companies, it makes me realize just how amazing the quality of Knives available in such quantities!

I have to say, the posts in the Catalogue section must have taken you some time, I am sure many of people along with me thank you Dan, I always appreciate your posts that are a pleasure to read every time , I think your taste in knives is superb, so thank you my friend! :thumbsup:

So good to see them in a Catalogue, and I saw that Sabre as well 😍.

The Internet is said to be the beginning of what we see much social chaos, but here within Traditional Knives I think this is a good place to be.
Click to expand...
I was thinking that there were images from a 1912 catalog around somewhere, but, I sure couldn't find them. Thanks for posting the reference.
Love that old pick bone!!
 
Campbellclanman said:
This guy here also - like others of this time frame has the PAT'D APL'D FOR stamp pile-side of the Tang, you dont see any patent stamping after this on that Beautiful Schrade Punch - it really is!
Click to expand...
black mamba said:
Duncan, that arched stamp knife has everything working for it: stamps, etch, full blades, and that glorious pick-bone. That knife is a seminar!
Click to expand...
We are so fortunate to access such grand craftsmanship!!
And Schrade punches are the best of the best!! They made quite a few for Holyoke!! At one time, mills and factories ran on leather belts, which needed constant maintenance and repair!!! I suspect use as a Harness Jack may have been a secondary usage!! Hmmmmmm!!!
 
r8shell said:
Please forgive my confusion. Is this an Empire punch? There's no nail nick.

jOPRt4X.jpg
Click to expand...
R8shell that's a neat Ol' Harness Jack Knife-! Aren't the old Ebonies great to see!

Empire had a couple didnt they, The Alvord and Empire has another that has this generic shape that you have here, I call ( only for my own referencing) this the "Empire Punch"
I am unsure if it is R8shell, see the side wall is quite thick and heavy, the two on the right hand side of this photo ( one is a Challenge Harness Jack Knife, the other an Empire Girl Guide Knife).
The side walls seem to be finer, and the shape of the kick is also quite different.
Empire's Alvord Punch is on the two on the left.

JNWwKln.jpg


Here are the "Shoulder formations" of the Tang Pile-side of the Tang, note they are all very similar to each other, The two Alvords on the left are exact in the shape of these shoulders, and the two "Empire Punches" are exact to each other as well. This can help at times - I guess it can be a bit like a court case where you gather all the circumstantial evidence together and then sate your findings.
What does your Punch look like on the pile side R8shell?

WQxcbdy.jpg


Is W.D. Herbert a German Brand? I am sure I saw someone post this when Charlie was talking about his two Harness Jack knives- a W.D.Herbert and the Hudson, I found an old Clunker Knife that had W.D.Herbert stamped on the tang, it is in terrible shape, which was definitely German, I sent to Charlie to try at least help with the trail in finding out who made his H.J.
 
Campbellclanman said:
R8shell that's a neat Ol' Harness Jack Knife-! Aren't the old Ebonies great to see!

Empire had a couple didnt they, The Alvord and Empire has another that has this generic shape that you have here, I call ( only for my own referencing) this the "Empire Punch"
I am unsure if it is R8shell, see the side wall is quite thick and heavy, the two on the right hand side of this photo ( one is a Challenge Harness Jack Knife, the other an Empire Girl Guide Knife).
The side walls seem to be finer, and the shape of the kick is also quite different.
Empire's Alvord Punch is on the two on the left.

JNWwKln.jpg


Here are the "Shoulder formations" of the Tang Pile-side of the Tang, note they are all very similar to each other, The two Alvords on the left are exact in the shape of these shoulders, and the two "Empire Punches" are exact to each other as well. This can help at times - I guess it can be a bit like a court case where you gather all the circumstantial evidence together and then sate your findings.
What does your Punch look like on the pile side R8shell?

WQxcbdy.jpg


Is W.D. Herbert a German Brand? I am sure I saw someone post this when Charlie was talking about his two Harness Jack knives- a W.D.Herbert and the Hudson, I found an old Clunker Knife that had W.D.Herbert stamped on the tang, it is in terrible shape, which was definitely German, I sent to Charlie to try at least help with the trail in finding out who made his H.J.
Click to expand...
Thanks for the info, Duncan.
I think there was some speculation about it being made by Boker, but I don't remember on what basis (could be the same as when I always guess Camillus on USA made knives of a certain age. I figure I'm right at least half the time 😁)

Anyway, for what it's worth, here's a picture of the pile side:
4hriMHF.jpg
 
Campbellclanman said:
I have never seen such Crisp conditioned Harness Jacks compared to what Charlie has been so kind to share with us. I am not sure- but these Knives really grab a hold of you and you can get absolutely lost in a photo displaying such knives.

Paul Hilborn shared this mighty example of a Schrade Cut Co Holyoke Belt Co, just a superb example, Paul a few years ago gifted me a Holyoke, I was quite blown away! Thank you once again my friend.
So one day I was shopping and picked up another! and too my surprise it was an earlier one again as it has the Schrade arched Stamp!

c7wvvNP.jpg


NbQdMrM.jpg


This guy here also - like others of this time frame has the PAT'D APL'D FOR stamp pile-side of the Tang, you dont see any patent stamping after this on that Beautiful Schrade Punch - it really is!

wUa2QBA.jpg


Pic Bone!! Just Beautiful!

OTggkII.jpg


SiPYd7m.jpg


Edited for extra Photo placed in.
Click to expand...
Beautiful Duncan, did that come through here? if it did is the a reason I didn't keep it??? ;) :D
 
Campbellclanman said:
R8shell that's a neat Ol' Harness Jack Knife-! Aren't the old Ebonies great to see!

Empire had a couple didnt they, The Alvord and Empire has another that has this generic shape that you have here, I call ( only for my own referencing) this the "Empire Punch"
I am unsure if it is R8shell, see the side wall is quite thick and heavy, the two on the right hand side of this photo ( one is a Challenge Harness Jack Knife, the other an Empire Girl Guide Knife).
The side walls seem to be finer, and the shape of the kick is also quite different.
Empire's Alvord Punch is on the two on the left.

JNWwKln.jpg


Here are the "Shoulder formations" of the Tang Pile-side of the Tang, note they are all very similar to each other, The two Alvords on the left are exact in the shape of these shoulders, and the two "Empire Punches" are exact to each other as well. This can help at times - I guess it can be a bit like a court case where you gather all the circumstantial evidence together and then sate your findings.
What does your Punch look like on the pile side R8shell?

WQxcbdy.jpg


Is W.D. Herbert a German Brand? I am sure I saw someone post this when Charlie was talking about his two Harness Jack knives- a W.D.Herbert and the Hudson, I found an old Clunker Knife that had W.D.Herbert stamped on the tang, it is in terrible shape, which was definitely German, I sent to Charlie to try at least help with the trail in finding out who made his H.J.
Click to expand...
Please forgive my asking.
Is the Challenge third from left, sans bail?
Looks to be in fantastic condition. 😇👍 Challenge was in business from 1891 to 1928. They were one of the first if not the first US makers to offer stainless steel blades in 1916. The company folded shortly after the death of the owner in 1928.

from oldpocketknives.com:

"The Challenge Cutlery Co of Bridgeport, Connecticut made pocket knives from around 1891 to 1928. Originally a trademark of a company from Sheffield, it was purchased by Frederick Weibusch & Co in New York (died 1893). Soon after the company adopted the trademark. Challenge made wonderful quality pocket knives known for its dimpled jigged bone handles. The company closed in 1928 with the death of its owner, Charles Weibusch. Eventually, the assets of the company would be purchased by George Schrade and eventually became the Schrade Cutlery Company."
 
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