Looking to mirror polish blades Loveless style... Any advice?

[DeadPineKnives]

DISCLAIMER: I am not attempting to sell knives on BladeForums at this time, as I do not have the correct membership yet, so I'm gonna keep this sort of vague.

For the past few years I've been making sort of roughneck knives with the intention that they'd be more likely to be bought by people who would actually use them, but lately I've been fascinated with Bob Loveless and other old-time knife makers that went above and beyond the call of duty to make a truly excellent knife, and over the past few months I've become dissatisfied with my own work and wish to advance my skills!

The main thing I've been having trouble with is nice finishing. To me, until recently, a "nice finish" involved 60 grit, 120 grit and a surface conditioning belt, but that simply blends everything together and hides rogue scratches.

What I want is a true mirror polish, like Bob Loveless did on his knives, using only a grinder and buffer without hand sanding involved. The only issue is that my knives are mainly convex, which means that unlike a flat bevel or hollow grind, the entire bevel is not in contact with the grinder all at once, which introduces the potential for missing spots and creating unwanted facets.

Does anyone have any advice for how I can achieve this? My main issue seems to be removing rogue scratches as I climb up the grits...

 

[C_Claycomb]

Is the steel you are using suitable for a mirror polish? What is it? Some are easier to finish, so advice that works well for CPM154 might not work so well for D2.

You might not like hand sanding, but using paper, or stones, lengthwise as an intermediary step between grinding is a very effective way to find and remove those deep rogue scratches. Engineered abrasives like the Gator belts help too, the engineered ceramics by Norton are very good. A light source that you can change angle to the blade (not overhead) and a hand lens are good for helping to spot scratches.

Arguably the ultimate polished convex is on Rockstead knives from Japan. They hand finish. Do a google search from Rockstead Making. There is a little thumbnail photo of their finishing line.

Do you grind your convex with a rotary platen? What belts do you use? Using the same type (stiffness) of belt through the grits is obviously helpful. Do you use cork belts? They might help in that they run from 220 to 1200, can be used wet, and with green chrome compound.

 

[JV Knives]

DeadPineKnives Unfortunately, wanting a mirror finish on a convex blade without hand sanding may be the equivalent of saying you want a Mona Lisa but only want to use aerosol spray paint. I don't think that's likely to happen. If you figure it out, I'm all ears!

Best,
John

 

[Richard338]

Here's a Loveless style tutorial. A bit of hand sanding is involved.

https://peu.net/mods/cuchillos/loveless/

 

[Crag the Brewer]

For this level of finish, do makers have a separate shop for final clean up and polish?

I am constantly fighting scratches. A mirror finish would be torture.

I also think a stainless blade is a requirement, as to not fight patina and tarnish?

Pretty, though!!!

 

[JDWARE]

here's a link to Steve Johnson going through the mirror finish process. Steve worked side by side with Loveless, and is a master in his own right.

https://ckdforums.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3519

Saludos
J

 

[Linus Knives]

I use Matt Gentry's process of mirror finishing- Using the airway wheel set from red label abrasives, it's quite easy.
I bring the blade up to about 600 grit handsanding then use each of the 3 different wheels with the right compound and it makes a very nice mirror finish.

 

[Drew Riley]

Steel type can definitely be a factor, as not all will mirror polish as easily. AEB-L seems to polish pretty easily in my experience. 26c3 isn't too bad either.
Good paper makes a difference. Rynowet redline is more/less the industry standard. I like using windex or Formula 409 stone and steel cleaner for a cutting fluid.
I also have pretty good luck with EDM mold polishing stones. Boride Abrasives make some really good ones. I like the CS-HD stones.
Lastly, a good buffing wheel with a quality buffing compound goes a long way. I know red label abrasives has a decent set that a lot of makers like. Here's a video showing Gentry Custom Knives using his set:

 

[Richard338]

Going back to the OP who mentioned a convex grind. That's one of the easiest since you can access the whole surface with a flat backing and just go up through the grits.
I'll post a tanto I did that on below.
Any kind of full flat or convex is easy. The real challenge, especially for Loveless style is keeping crisp bevel lines. If you mash away with the buffer, it'll get shiny but you'll totally wash out the lines.

 

[DeadPineKnives]

Is the steel you are using suitable for a mirror polish? What is it? Some are easier to finish, so advice that works well for CPM154 might not work so well for D2.

You might not like hand sanding, but using paper, or stones, lengthwise as an intermediary step between grinding is a very effective way to find and remove those deep rogue scratches. Engineered abrasives like the Gator belts help too, the engineered ceramics by Norton are very good. A light source that you can change angle to the blade (not overhead) and a hand lens are good for helping to spot scratches.

Arguably the ultimate polished convex is on Rockstead knives from Japan. They hand finish. Do a google search from Rockstead Making. There is a little thumbnail photo of their finishing line.

Do you grind your convex with a rotary platen? What belts do you use? Using the same type (stiffness) of belt through the grits is obviously helpful. Do you use cork belts? They might help in that they run from 220 to 1200, can be used wet, and with green chrome compound.

For the most part I've been using AEBL, but have been venturing into higher alloy steels like CPM-154 and I'm also trying out a few others like M4.

Using sandpaper to sand vertically as a means to detect rogue scratches between grits is a great idea! I thought about doing it with a scotch brite pad, but that doesn't seem abrasive enough to affect steels with higher wear resistance.

I grind my convexes on the flat platen and finish blending with the slack portion of the belt, a technique I learned from S Seedy Lot and have worked hard to get good at, as I'm lucky enough to have one of his knives and find the Seedyvex to be superior to other convex grinds I've tried due to the thin but still durable edge, as opposed to a thicker, blunter one or a full-height convex with a massive belt-ground edge, as I've seen in some examples.

Currently I use VSM 50 and 120 grit ceramic belts and then surface conditioning belts for a blended satin finish but I have been attempting to climb through the grits to not much avail.

I wouldn't be opposed to some degree of hand finishing but I'm trying to minimize the amount of time spent on each knife so that I can turn out a nice product without an absurd price tag.

DeadPineKnives Unfortunately, wanting a mirror finish on a convex blade without hand sanding may be the equivalent of saying you want a Mona Lisa but only want to use aerosol spray paint. I don't think that's likely to happen. If you figure it out, I'm all ears!

Best,
John

Loveless was able to do it well with his hollow grinds, but I know that's a different animal. I believe some kind of soft platen may be in order but I don't want to risk blunting or rounding over my edge and ending up with something that doesn't cut as well as I'd like.

Here's a Loveless style tutorial. A bit of hand sanding is involved.

https://peu.net/mods/cuchillos/loveless/

This is a really detailed and interesting tutorial, thank you! This guy seems to do very nice work! I really enjoyed reading it a lot.

I use Matt Gentry's process of mirror finishing- Using the airway wheel set from red label abrasives, it's quite easy.
I bring the blade up to about 600 grit handsanding then use each of the 3 different wheels with the right compound and it makes a very nice mirror finish.
View attachment 2878254View attachment 2878255

Looking good! I saw those wheels in Gentry's video, and they seem nice but I am a little resentful of the idea that every solution to my problem requires me to run out and buy something... Such is life as a knife maker, I suppose!

Steel type can definitely be a factor, as not all will mirror polish as easily. AEB-L seems to polish pretty easily in my experience. 26c3 isn't too bad either.
Good paper makes a difference. Rynowet redline is more/less the industry standard. I like using windex or Formula 409 stone and steel cleaner for a cutting fluid.
I also have pretty good luck with EDM mold polishing stones. Boride Abrasives make some really good ones. I like the CS-HD stones.
Lastly, a good buffing wheel with a quality buffing compound goes a long way. I know red label abrasives has a decent set that a lot of makers like. Here's a video showing Gentry Custom Knives using his set:

I was suggested EDM stones! Also I had no idea there was a difference between buffing compounds, and simply bought a buffer and compound from Harbor Freight... They seem to work, but I think a better compound would make things easier.

Going back to the OP who mentioned a convex grind. That's one of the easiest since you can access the whole surface with a flat backing and just go up through the grits.
I'll post a tanto I did that on below.
Any kind of full flat or convex is easy. The real challenge, especially for Loveless style is keeping crisp bevel lines. If you mash away with the buffer, it'll get shiny but you'll totally wash out the lines.
View attachment 2878282

Oh wow, that looks great! And yeah, a big issue of mine is keeping things crisp, but I think that on thin stock (less than 1/8") like I use things become more difficult since there's less wiggle room for material removal...

Thanks for the advice, everyone! I definitely have homework to do.

 

[Linus Knives]

I was suggested EDM stones! Also I had no idea there was a difference between buffing compounds, and simply bought a buffer and compound from Harbor Freight... They seem to work, but I think a better compound would make things easier.

Not sure which buffer you bought from harbor freight, but to get a good mirror polish you're going to need to apply quite a bit of pressure. Some of the cheaper harbor freight buffers don't have very much power and can bog down pretty easily...
I have the Grizzly G1061Z - 1 HP, 1725 RPM Buffer and it works great!
Linus

 

[DeadPineKnives]

Not sure which buffer you bought from harbor freight, but to get a good mirror polish you're going to need to apply quite a bit of pressure. Some of the cheaper harbor freight buffers don't have very much power and can bog down pretty easily...
I have the Grizzly G1061Z - 1 HP, 1725 RPM Buffer and it works great!
Linus

Mine may be half horse, I just got the smaller one because the large one had arbors that I thought were too long but now I see that this would have been handy.

Sometimes I'm too hasty and buy things without doing my homework and then I really pay for it... The small buffer has been doing alright though. It's good for handles especially!

 

[Drew Riley]

Also I had no idea there was a difference between buffing compounds, and simply bought a buffer and compound from Harbor Freight... They seem to work, but I think a better compound would make things easier.

All buff wheels and compounds are definitely not created equal. I like the black compound from Phoenix abrasives for heavier polishing. I forget where I bought my buffs from, but they're spiral sewn and I'd say they're just "ok".
I know there are a lot of different buff materials (cotton/muslin, sisal, flannel, felt, etc...), and there's different configurations (spiral sewn, circle sewn, loose, etc...)
The speed and power of your buffer also makes a difference. Higher power and slower speed is definitely preferable, but you can still do quite a bit with the lower power/higher speed buffers.

For all the knife making classes, tutorials, videos, etc... out there, I'm surprised I haven't seen too many that cover all of the nuances of buffing. I know there's a lot of people that don't even own a buffer, as they can be quite dangerous (even lethal), but they're a still pretty significant part of a lot of maker's finishing process.

 

[DeadPineKnives]

All buff wheels and compounds are definitely not created equal. I like the black compound from Phoenix abrasives for heavier polishing. I forget where I bought my buffs from, but they're spiral sewn and I'd say they're just "ok".
I know there are a lot of different buff materials (cotton/muslin, sisal, flannel, felt, etc...), and there's different configurations (spiral sewn, circle sewn, loose, etc...)
The speed and power of your buffer also makes a difference. Higher power and slower speed is definitely preferable, but you can still do quite a bit with the lower power/higher speed buffers.

For all the knife making classes, tutorials, videos, etc... out there, I'm surprised I haven't seen too many that cover all of the nuances of buffing. I know there's a lot of people that don't even own a buffer, as they can be quite dangerous (even lethal), but they're a still pretty significant part of a lot of maker's finishing process.

Many knife makers today aren't really following the Guild/ABS practices anymore from what I've seen and mostly tend toward the more modern bushcraft/EDC/tactical stuff which prioritizes nice finishing much less.

I'm annoyed by the constant expenses involved with knife making, moreso now that I'm trying to do better work, but I suppose it's necessary. But it's like my boss man at my day job says, ain't no pussies in the hall of fame.

 

[C_Claycomb]

….
I'm annoyed by the constant expenses involved with knife making, moreso now that I'm trying to do better work, but I suppose it's necessary...

No, not necessary at all. You can simple take more time and do more by hand. . The maker chooses the expenses when they choose the sort of knife they want to make, and how quick they want to make it. There are quite a lot of folk who enjoy the journey, and are not too bothered if it takes a while. Not me…I like arriving at the destination as planned. Sounds like that might describe you too.

Chris

 

[DeadPineKnives]

No, not necessary at all. You can simple take more time and do more by hand. . The maker chooses the expenses when they choose the sort of knife they want to make, and how quick they want to make it. There are quite a lot of folk who enjoy the journey, and are not too bothered if it takes a while. Not me…I like arriving at the destination as planned. Sounds like that might describe you too.

Chris

Fair enough. To use the law of extremes, I technically could make knives with no power tools or I could make them with a $100,000 CNC machine, but neither one is practical for me so I have to strike a balance.

 

[Sam Wilson]

If you're going to mirror polish on a suboptimal buffer without all the appropriate levels of compound, the easiest way is probably going to be to just hand sand everything to 2 or 3000 Grit first. Then a couple of quick passes on the buffer will get you to a nice mirror polish, assuming you have the correct steel. That will also prevent you from washing out your grind lines on such thin stock, where there is less relief.

Sam

 

[12345678910]

DISCLAIMER: I am not attempting to sell knives on BladeForums at this time, as I do not have the correct membership yet, so I'm gonna keep this sort of vague.

For the past few years I've been making sort of roughneck knives with the intention that they'd be more likely to be bought by people who would actually use them, but lately I've been fascinated with Bob Loveless and other old-time knife makers that went above and beyond the call of duty to make a truly excellent knife, and over the past few months I've become dissatisfied with my own work and wish to advance my skills!

The main thing I've been having trouble with is nice finishing. To me, until recently, a "nice finish" involved 60 grit, 120 grit and a surface conditioning belt, but that simply blends everything together and hides rogue scratches.

What I want is a true mirror polish, like Bob Loveless did on his knives, using only a grinder and buffer without hand sanding involved. The only issue is that my knives are mainly convex, which means that unlike a flat bevel or hollow grind, the entire bevel is not in contact with the grinder all at once, which introduces the potential for missing spots and creating unwanted facets.

Does anyone have any advice for how I can achieve this? My main issue seems to be removing rogue scratches as I climb up the grits...

Read his book, watch his video

 

[DeadPineKnives]

Read his book, watch his video

I have the book and have gone back and watched the video at least 6 or 8 times

 

[Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith]

One of the biggest enemies of a mirror polish is not COMPLETELY removing the last grits scratches before moving on. Get a good three to five power magnifier or optovisor and look the blade over well before moving up a grit. Contamination is the other major culprit. Use separate buffing wheels and keep them in labled zip-lock bacs. Keep polish in bags. Vacuum the bench and all around between polish steps. WASH YOUR HANDS before touching the next step's materials.