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Looking to mirror polish blades Loveless style... Any advice?
- Thread starter DeadPineKnives
- Start date
DeadPineKnives
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UPDATE: I'm getting very close to a successful mirror finish!
With some help from a friend of mine who's a very talented maker, as well as from Marcus Lin and S.R. Johnson himself, I've developed my own method which should theoretically work.
A few weeks ago, I attempted to mirror finish a blade by climbing through every single grit on my 2x72 grinder and still ended up with deep scratches. Frustrated, I did some more research, and here's what I came up with... Bear in mind, this method of mirror polishing is still incomplete and could still use some work, and I will be very open about my errors.
Before heat treat, I roughly ground my bevels (full flat grind and hollow grind) with a 3M 947A Cubitron 60+ belt, cleaned up the shapes with a 3M 947A Cubitron 120+ belt, then began removing scratches starting with a 120 grit J-flex aluminum oxide belt, then proceeded with j-flex AO belts in 240 and 400 grit. I also hand-sanded the blades vertically at 400 grit, but that was a waste of time and I won't continue that practice. After heat treat, I cleaned up the grinds and flats of the blade with a brand new 400 grit j-flex belt, and then proceeded to work on it with an 800 grit cork belt loaded with water-soluble Gesswein Greystar compound, a rather aggressive cut compound that erased the vast majority of the 400 grit scratches and left a finish that, quite frankly, is rather respectable on its own. After that, I proceeded to hand-sand the flats and bevels with Rhynowet Redline sandpaper, which I use instead of cheaper sandpaper because the grit is more consistent and it cuts for longer. For full flat grinds I wrapped the paper around a small block of micarta with rounded edges, and for hollow grinds I held it on a piece of thick 10-11oz leather, and I used ordinary Windex as cutting fluid. I started at 1000 grit, which cut much faster than I expected and removed all of the few remaining crosswise scratches left from 400 grit, then proceeded through 1500 and 2000. I then hit the blade on a buffer with stitched cotton pads, one loaded with green compound and one with purple, both from Maverick Abrasives.
Much to my dismay, despite achieving an otherwise gorgeous polish, there remained long, lengthwise scratches in the blade, which tells me that I did not spend nearly long enough at 1500 or 2000 grit. So, next time I plan to spend much longer with those two, as well as trying to cross-sand to reveal any scratches from previous grits. There were also small pockmarks in the blade, which suggested grit contamination, and that confused and frustrated me because the wheels were brand new and still in the plastic only minutes earlier. Upon consulting my friend with this information, he informed me that my habit of being a cheapskate had once again bitten me in the ass, because cheapo buffing wheels often contain stray grit from their careless manufacturing processes. He advised me to instead buy high-quality felt polishing wheels, which I am still waiting on at this time, and while I was at it I ordered some white compound from Gesswein to try.
I also read an article in an issue of Knife Magazine, which S.R. Johnson generously gifted to me, that too much pressure/heat generated by the buffer can leave shallow marks in a polished blade, which is yet another variable I had failed to consider. Admittedly I have been known to be a little heavy-handed with the buffer, a behavior I must correct going forward.
Overall, I'm almost there! All I have to do is be more diligent with hand sanding, use better quality polishing equipment, and lighten my touch on the buffer a tad. When my supplies arrive I'll give it yet another attempt and post another update.
With some help from a friend of mine who's a very talented maker, as well as from Marcus Lin and S.R. Johnson himself, I've developed my own method which should theoretically work.
A few weeks ago, I attempted to mirror finish a blade by climbing through every single grit on my 2x72 grinder and still ended up with deep scratches. Frustrated, I did some more research, and here's what I came up with... Bear in mind, this method of mirror polishing is still incomplete and could still use some work, and I will be very open about my errors.
Before heat treat, I roughly ground my bevels (full flat grind and hollow grind) with a 3M 947A Cubitron 60+ belt, cleaned up the shapes with a 3M 947A Cubitron 120+ belt, then began removing scratches starting with a 120 grit J-flex aluminum oxide belt, then proceeded with j-flex AO belts in 240 and 400 grit. I also hand-sanded the blades vertically at 400 grit, but that was a waste of time and I won't continue that practice. After heat treat, I cleaned up the grinds and flats of the blade with a brand new 400 grit j-flex belt, and then proceeded to work on it with an 800 grit cork belt loaded with water-soluble Gesswein Greystar compound, a rather aggressive cut compound that erased the vast majority of the 400 grit scratches and left a finish that, quite frankly, is rather respectable on its own. After that, I proceeded to hand-sand the flats and bevels with Rhynowet Redline sandpaper, which I use instead of cheaper sandpaper because the grit is more consistent and it cuts for longer. For full flat grinds I wrapped the paper around a small block of micarta with rounded edges, and for hollow grinds I held it on a piece of thick 10-11oz leather, and I used ordinary Windex as cutting fluid. I started at 1000 grit, which cut much faster than I expected and removed all of the few remaining crosswise scratches left from 400 grit, then proceeded through 1500 and 2000. I then hit the blade on a buffer with stitched cotton pads, one loaded with green compound and one with purple, both from Maverick Abrasives.
Much to my dismay, despite achieving an otherwise gorgeous polish, there remained long, lengthwise scratches in the blade, which tells me that I did not spend nearly long enough at 1500 or 2000 grit. So, next time I plan to spend much longer with those two, as well as trying to cross-sand to reveal any scratches from previous grits. There were also small pockmarks in the blade, which suggested grit contamination, and that confused and frustrated me because the wheels were brand new and still in the plastic only minutes earlier. Upon consulting my friend with this information, he informed me that my habit of being a cheapskate had once again bitten me in the ass, because cheapo buffing wheels often contain stray grit from their careless manufacturing processes. He advised me to instead buy high-quality felt polishing wheels, which I am still waiting on at this time, and while I was at it I ordered some white compound from Gesswein to try.
I also read an article in an issue of Knife Magazine, which S.R. Johnson generously gifted to me, that too much pressure/heat generated by the buffer can leave shallow marks in a polished blade, which is yet another variable I had failed to consider. Admittedly I have been known to be a little heavy-handed with the buffer, a behavior I must correct going forward.
Overall, I'm almost there! All I have to do is be more diligent with hand sanding, use better quality polishing equipment, and lighten my touch on the buffer a tad. When my supplies arrive I'll give it yet another attempt and post another update.
bladegrinder
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Buffing to hard can also produce an orange peel effect. You’ll get there, nice mirror polished finishes take a lot of time to get good at doing.
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The airway buffing kit from red label abrasives was and is a game changer for me with mirror finishes.
Bill DeShivs
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WD 40 on your buffing wheels will make them cut more aggressively AND smoother.
It can get messy.
It can get messy.
DSP, try the Cubitron 726A belts in 120-400 post heat treat. They actually will cut 64 HRC Magnacut; I see the dust flying off of the belts! Then I go to a felt backed Starcke 541 series belt in 400 and 600 and they help refine the finish. After that, I go to a 800 grit cork belt loaded with Black Magic buffing compound and it gives it a nice finish and starts to mirror it out, but also highlights all of the previous scratches that were missed on the belt sander.
I found with the EDM stones, they remove the belt sander deep scratches quickly, but also leave deep gouges in the surface of the steel, which are slower to come out, even when going perpendicular to them, so I am playing with different grades/brands of EDM stones and sandpaper to see the best way to remove the oddball scratches.
I just picked up some DuraGold 600 grit ceramic PSA rolls. I tried their AO longboard PSA rolls (I use them on handles all of the time) and they actually were removing metal from hardened magnacut, too. Interested to see how the ceramic DuraGold compares to the SIC and AO from them that I use! Even at 1000 SIC, the first few passes will leave deeper marks, so a softer backer (put a strip of leather onto the micarta block) may also help with this for you. I even found with use SIC powder mixed with oil and Sic sandpaper on a leather backer, I still got random scratches, so I wonder if there is something to using AO abrasives at the finer grits to avoid those deeper scratches from the "fresh" SIC or Ceramic abrasives? They are nice when doing a hand rub finish and getting nice, even pulls, but when going up higher, it may be counter productive to use sharp/fresh sandpaper? Cross sanding (or even at a 45 degree angle) will definetly help show these scratches, especially at the higher grits!
I found with the EDM stones, they remove the belt sander deep scratches quickly, but also leave deep gouges in the surface of the steel, which are slower to come out, even when going perpendicular to them, so I am playing with different grades/brands of EDM stones and sandpaper to see the best way to remove the oddball scratches.
I just picked up some DuraGold 600 grit ceramic PSA rolls. I tried their AO longboard PSA rolls (I use them on handles all of the time) and they actually were removing metal from hardened magnacut, too. Interested to see how the ceramic DuraGold compares to the SIC and AO from them that I use! Even at 1000 SIC, the first few passes will leave deeper marks, so a softer backer (put a strip of leather onto the micarta block) may also help with this for you. I even found with use SIC powder mixed with oil and Sic sandpaper on a leather backer, I still got random scratches, so I wonder if there is something to using AO abrasives at the finer grits to avoid those deeper scratches from the "fresh" SIC or Ceramic abrasives? They are nice when doing a hand rub finish and getting nice, even pulls, but when going up higher, it may be counter productive to use sharp/fresh sandpaper? Cross sanding (or even at a 45 degree angle) will definetly help show these scratches, especially at the higher grits!
DeadPineKnives
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- Nov 25, 2024
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Well, I messed it all up again today.
AEBL, 61-62hrc, hand sanded to 2000 grit. Brand new Lee Valley felt buffing wheels, medium firmness. Gesswein Greystar on one and white Lustre Bar on the other, light touch...
Greystar failed to erase the 2000 grit scratches and also left hundreds of gossamer-thin scratches of its own, and the Lustre Bar didn't erase those scratches. I ended up with a blade covered in tiny spiderweb scratches and some orange-peeling.
I'm beyond dejected. I've spoken to friends and mentors, gotten advice knife makers I admire, even legends like Marcus Lin and S.R. Johnson, I've tried so many different things spent so much money and I still can't do it.
I'm just at a loss. I was so certain that this time I would get it right, but now I don't know where to go from here.
AEBL, 61-62hrc, hand sanded to 2000 grit. Brand new Lee Valley felt buffing wheels, medium firmness. Gesswein Greystar on one and white Lustre Bar on the other, light touch...
Greystar failed to erase the 2000 grit scratches and also left hundreds of gossamer-thin scratches of its own, and the Lustre Bar didn't erase those scratches. I ended up with a blade covered in tiny spiderweb scratches and some orange-peeling.
I'm beyond dejected. I've spoken to friends and mentors, gotten advice knife makers I admire, even legends like Marcus Lin and S.R. Johnson, I've tried so many different things spent so much money and I still can't do it.
I'm just at a loss. I was so certain that this time I would get it right, but now I don't know where to go from here.
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Richard338
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Maybe post some pictures if you're not too disgusted. One more thing to consider. After 2000 or 2500 Rhynowet, I sometimes use 3M polishing sheets, the pink 4000, then the blue, 6000. The tanto I posted on the first page never saw the buffer, just the polishing sheets.
SwissHeritageCo
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Doesn't sound worth it mate.
Last edited by a moderator:
DeadPineKnives
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If I quit it now, I'll just be admitting defeat and telling the whole world I'm not good enough to do something other people do perfectly every day
Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith
ilmarinen - MODERATOR
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My bet is the deep scratches from the early grits were still there. They can hide until a much finer grit.
1) Work on your hand sanding so you use smooth pull strokes as much as possible.
2) Clean EVERYTHING before going up to the next grit. One stray larger grit on your hands, clothes, the table, the backing block, etc. can show up and ruin all your work.
3) If using a soap/water solution as a lubricant, be sure to dump and rinse well the water tub and fill it with a fresh solution.
4) I find the 3M sheets very good for getting ready for polish.
5) Make sure the buffing wheel is stored in a zip-lock bag when not in use, and covered while on the buffer. Same for te polish sticks. If they are just laying in the dust and grit on the bench, they will get contaminated!
The best setup is NOT having the buffer in the same room as the grinder.
6) Instead of the standard polish sticks, some folks find a diamond compound on the buffing wheel helpful on hard and difficult steels.
All the above is why I don't mirror polish blades ... plus, if used, all that work will be destroyed when the knife is used to cut anything harder than jello.
Another question is - Are you sure it is scratches. Two other possibilities are too hard pressure on the buff and alloy banding in the steel. You can fix the sanding/buffing issues, but alloy banding will never sand or buff away.
1) Work on your hand sanding so you use smooth pull strokes as much as possible.
2) Clean EVERYTHING before going up to the next grit. One stray larger grit on your hands, clothes, the table, the backing block, etc. can show up and ruin all your work.
3) If using a soap/water solution as a lubricant, be sure to dump and rinse well the water tub and fill it with a fresh solution.
4) I find the 3M sheets very good for getting ready for polish.
5) Make sure the buffing wheel is stored in a zip-lock bag when not in use, and covered while on the buffer. Same for te polish sticks. If they are just laying in the dust and grit on the bench, they will get contaminated!
The best setup is NOT having the buffer in the same room as the grinder.
6) Instead of the standard polish sticks, some folks find a diamond compound on the buffing wheel helpful on hard and difficult steels.
All the above is why I don't mirror polish blades ... plus, if used, all that work will be destroyed when the knife is used to cut anything harder than jello.
Another question is - Are you sure it is scratches. Two other possibilities are too hard pressure on the buff and alloy banding in the steel. You can fix the sanding/buffing issues, but alloy banding will never sand or buff away.
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This!
Lurking scratches are almost always from earlier grits. We've all done the thing of lying to ourselves about the readiness for the buff: if it shows up scratches that are too big for the buff (in my case scratches exceeding the size from 20 micron belt), then go back to the grinder or hand sanding. The previous process will take the scratch out way faster than the buff will (assuming it is even possible with the buffer).
Did this yesterday (went back to the grinder after a quick buff revealed problems), and I've been at this a long time. (50th anniversary year, this year)
This is why I'll never bother with mirror finishes. I'm making tools, not art. Nothing wrong with accepting that you do not care to continue to perfection. Lick your wounds and move on. Deflating yes, but to continue, could and likely will get worse before it gets better, and for what reason.
DeadPineKnives
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After talking to a friend last night, we surmised that the Gesswein Greystar compound, while excellent for the cork belt, is just too aggressive for final polishing, so I ordered a bar of black compound from Maverick to try, and will provide updates. We also theorized that the very dry, crumbly white compound I used was not fast enough, and I intend to try conventional green compound instead.
It could also be possible that the indentations in the blade were left over from the last unsuccessful buffing session, and were somehow not fully sanded out, so I plan to completely start over with the finishing process, from a 400 grit belt, cork belt, then hand sanding. It is also entirely possible that I have been too heavy-handed with my hand sanding, which I have been trying to correct.
At this point, the only logical thing to do is to identify and then completely eliminate all known variables. Other makers such as I irbailey have been known to achieve a clean mirror finish on AEBL and related alloys, so I'm hardly in uncharted territory here.
I plan to completely start over with the finishing process by using a 400 grit AO j-flex belt on my grinder, then follow up with my 800 grit cork belt loaded with Gesswein Greystar, then use 1000 grit Rhynowet to completely remove those scratches, then follow through with 1500 and 2000.
I also have a theory about performing a pre-finishing step in which I hand-rub the blade using a piece of leather loaded with black compound, but I'm not totally sure how useful that would be.
As far as hand sanding goes, I feel that I could be more diligent and systematic. So I'm thinking that per each side of the blade, I'll sand for 10 minutes and 100 light finishing pulls for 1000 grit, 15 minutes and 150 light finishing pulls for 1500 grit, and 20 minutes and 200 light finishing pulls for 2000 grit. This seems to me like a very thorough process, if even a bit excessive. Along with sanding in alternating directions with each different grit, there's no way I could screw this up.
I've also been using a piece of thick leather as sandpaper backing for hand sanding hollow grinds, on the advice of Zachary James Buchanan, but Marcus Lin instead advised a piece of rubber, so I'll be looking around for something like that.
Last night was extremely discouraging and the most defeated I've felt in a long time, but I'm not done yet.
It could also be possible that the indentations in the blade were left over from the last unsuccessful buffing session, and were somehow not fully sanded out, so I plan to completely start over with the finishing process, from a 400 grit belt, cork belt, then hand sanding. It is also entirely possible that I have been too heavy-handed with my hand sanding, which I have been trying to correct.
At this point, the only logical thing to do is to identify and then completely eliminate all known variables. Other makers such as I irbailey have been known to achieve a clean mirror finish on AEBL and related alloys, so I'm hardly in uncharted territory here.
I plan to completely start over with the finishing process by using a 400 grit AO j-flex belt on my grinder, then follow up with my 800 grit cork belt loaded with Gesswein Greystar, then use 1000 grit Rhynowet to completely remove those scratches, then follow through with 1500 and 2000.
I also have a theory about performing a pre-finishing step in which I hand-rub the blade using a piece of leather loaded with black compound, but I'm not totally sure how useful that would be.
As far as hand sanding goes, I feel that I could be more diligent and systematic. So I'm thinking that per each side of the blade, I'll sand for 10 minutes and 100 light finishing pulls for 1000 grit, 15 minutes and 150 light finishing pulls for 1500 grit, and 20 minutes and 200 light finishing pulls for 2000 grit. This seems to me like a very thorough process, if even a bit excessive. Along with sanding in alternating directions with each different grit, there's no way I could screw this up.
I've also been using a piece of thick leather as sandpaper backing for hand sanding hollow grinds, on the advice of Zachary James Buchanan, but Marcus Lin instead advised a piece of rubber, so I'll be looking around for something like that.
Last night was extremely discouraging and the most defeated I've felt in a long time, but I'm not done yet.
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sometimes it's ok to just walk away. When a challenge seems too insurmountable, I find that time is usually on my side. Stepping away to work on something else until a solution presents itself is a big reason that I like to have lots of projects on the go all the time.
ps. orange peeling strikes me as a speed/pressure thing
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600x (or 1000x) belt as final on the machine would be my preference, but I'm talking about contact wheel, not platen, so cork after 400 might be right.
Polishing is much less aggressive than grinding, so polishing compounds on belts are not going to be as effective at cleaning previous grit scratches as belts on the grinder.
However, for me platen grinding does put grooves in that hand sanding needs to remove (which has me hand sanding with whatever the last grit on the grinder was, for starters). This is not true for contact wheel grinding, you can go straight from the wheel to polishing, if the wheel is soft enough and the belt is clean
Strongly support the use of rubber behind the media for hand sanding. My hand sanding is aluminum block with 1/8 soft rubber face, then the abrasive medium.
Polishing is much less aggressive than grinding, so polishing compounds on belts are not going to be as effective at cleaning previous grit scratches as belts on the grinder.
However, for me platen grinding does put grooves in that hand sanding needs to remove (which has me hand sanding with whatever the last grit on the grinder was, for starters). This is not true for contact wheel grinding, you can go straight from the wheel to polishing, if the wheel is soft enough and the belt is clean
Strongly support the use of rubber behind the media for hand sanding. My hand sanding is aluminum block with 1/8 soft rubber face, then the abrasive medium.
DeadPineKnives
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I know you probably aren't too familiar with me, because who should be, but I am known to be a very obsessive/neurotic maker... I don't necessarily love that about myself, it's just the truth. I get hung up on one thing and don't stop until I either succeed or am so defeated that I can't possibly go on.
I absolutely agree about the orange peeling statement. I was trying light pressure, so could it be possible that the buffer I have is too fast? That would really suck, because I JUST got it...
It really annoys me that every time I have a problem, I usually end up having to throw money at it.
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The buffer speed could be a problem. How fast is yours? I know when I bought mine, I specifically bought the slower stronger one from grizzly- I think it's 1725 RPM or something like that.