M390 VS ZDP-189 Rope Cutting - Informal testing

[The Mastiff]

Enough to make a couple of test mules would be great. Our mules are 2 X 4 inches. 1/8" thick. How hard is optimal?

Of course we can also get some from Crucible and make a model with it. Maybe a UK FRN?

sal

RC 61 is optimal IMO. You can run it up to RC 64 if needed. 61-62 is about perfect. It's not chippy at that hardness.

I've got a piece that can provide you a bunch of your test mules. Is .215-.230 too thick? There's enough to test some different heats and hardnesses.

I'll call your company this week to get a shipping address and UPS it out probably tuesday.

Have fun with it, and tell the grinders to keep the temps down while grinding.

Regards, Joe

 

[wongKI]

Ooh, this looks fun.

If this works out, I'd like to see the results. On a side note, can anyone confirm the CATRA results I found? Just curious.

 

[rpw]

I am a new member and have a Bm M390, short one, where can i send it to get the high grind like on the pictures above?

 

[Phil Wilson]

wongKI, can't speak to the absolute values on your CATRA information but the relative ranking for wear resistance looks right to me. This is assuming that hardness is in the 58-60 range for most of them except for ZDP and 125V. CPM 10V and CPM S110V and CPM M4 at RC 64 based on my experience would fall in with CPM S125V. M390, ELMAX, CPM S30V would fall in a category and group near CPM S90V depending on the hardness of the individual samples. That is a wide range on ZDP 189 but the high number tends to fit in with S90V and that looks about right. Where are my tests and numbers to comfirm this? In my note book and in my head. My testing has been on knives. Different heat treats and grinds as we all know will give varying results, some surprising to say the least but my take on Wong's data... Phil

 

[nozh2002]

Ooh, this looks fun.

If this works out, I'd like to see the results. On a side note, can anyone confirm the CATRA results I found? Just curious.

Those are not official results, Spyderco did not confirm it. Spyderco share those tests asking to keep them secret. Until they change policy, it will not be confirmed and continue to be urban legend.

On my testing - ZDP189 is clearly ahead of CPM S90V on production knives (not on some lab samples nobody uses in production).

Phil as well as Spyderco keep his testing secret as well. I do not really see value in this at all. He do not want to discuss his methodology which have quite afew questions not answered. Most important is media isolation - he do cuts on wood base which is harder then testing media - manila rope, as well he has no method to assure same initial sharpness as well as any way to measure sharpness.

Thanks, Vassili.

What is most surprising is that it is very easy create simple device to cut rope without hitting randomly base with edge in testing. I am wondering why it is not done even to give a try for several years now.

 

[DennisStrickland]

vasilli what is your problem? no one on this forum & perhaps no one on this earth owes you something. do your testing if you desire & post your observations. let us as well as we will let yourself draw your own conclusions. have'nt you heard the old addage "you can draw more flies with honey than you can with vinegar.
dennis

 

[nozh2002]

vasilli what is your problem? no one on this forum & perhaps no one on this earth owes you something. do your testing if you desire & post your observations. let us as well as we will let yourself draw your own conclusions. have'nt you heard the old addage "you can draw more flies with honey than you can with vinegar.
dennis

I am not quite sure what are you talking about? There is obvious problems with Phil's testing. He may have heat treat blades to same hardness and have same cross section, but it is more important to provide same initial sharpness to all blades before testing. So far I do not see this happening.

And as well he is not cutting rope but rope plus wooden base, and wooden base provides - to my experience, pretty random load to same edge.

Now you telling me not to raise this issue and rather be nice? What is this kinder garden? Are we talking about testing knives or this is old lady tea party? What kind of problem do you have?

If you have random initial sharpness and random load on edge - what kind of test results would it be? You may trust that, but on my opinion - there is no too much value in it.

But again we do not have any numbers to analyze.

So this is what I see, based on my 5 years of testing and of course you may draw you own conclusion but why not to consider what I see? I am not sure too many others have similar experience behind.

And Phil do not feel like to address this issues.

When I was asked about edge angle - I try my best to describe even draw some pictures. Phil told me that I am not welcomed in his garage... Why all this drama?

Thanks, Vassili.

 

[MORIMOTOM]

I am not quite sure what are you talking about? There is obvious problems with Phil's testing. He may have heat treat blades to same hardness and have same cross section, but it is more important to provide same initial sharpness to all blades before testing. So far I do not see this happening.

And as well he is not cutting rope but rope plus wooden base, and wooden base provides - to my experience, pretty random load to same edge.

Now you telling me not to raise this issue and rather be nice? What is this kinder garden? Are we talking about testing knives or this is old lady tea party? What kind of problem do you have?

If you have random initial sharpness and random load on edge - what kind of test results would it be? You may trust that, but on my opinion - there is no too much value in it.

But again we do not have any numbers to analyze.

So this is what I see, based on my 5 years of testing and of course you may draw you own conclusion but why not to consider what I see? I am not sure too many others have similar experience behind.

And Phil do not feel like to address this issues.

When I was asked about edge angle - I try my best to describe even draw some pictures. Phil told me that I am not welcomed in his garage... Why all this drama?

Thanks, Vassili.

huh.

probably because you are a pompous, arrogant, condescending know-it-all.

you are quick to point out other's shortcomings, but ignore your own.


but im probably on your ignore list anyway, so i don't imagine you are reading this.

 

[Phil Wilson]

Vasili, I did my last post to answer a question that Wong posed. I just said that the CATRA info he put seemed to fall into place with my experience. I also offered where some other grades would probably fall in. What the hell is your problem? I don't remember asking for your opinion. We have been all over my test procedure. You are hung up on the wood base and how I sharpen my knives. Your discount what I do out of hand, why should I give you more information at this point. Ok you do it different. Good for you, you are your own self appointed world expert on steel performance. My tests give me the information I need to improve my knives, evaluate new steels and give me a good idea on how my knives and others will work in the field. Once in a while I offer an opinion. I compare notes with Sal and Ankerson and others. We help each other and the info I provide can be taken for what it is worth. I am getting pretty tired of every time I post I have to deal with your BS.

 

[hardheart]

but it is more important to provide same initial sharpness to all blades before testing.

gator is gonna have a field day with this

 

[sodak]

I am not quite sure what are you talking about?Phil told me that I am not welcomed in his garage... Why all this drama?

Thanks, Vassili.

Let me make it clear for you. I disagree with your conclusions, and don't care about your opinion. Many here agree with that statement.

Your posts add nothing to the conversation. Go away. I'm putting you on my ignore list and sending this off to the mods. You are simply a pest, nothing more.

 

[wongKI]

Thanks, Phil. Just to make it real clear that I didn't actually do these tests, but found them online on Spyderco's forum.

What I am interested in is to what extent of dulling does Catra test? Vassili's tests only (if I recall correctly) test to the point where the blade can no longer push cut thread; not sure about others?

 

[Kohai999]

We help each other and the info I provide can be taken for what it is worth. I am getting pretty tired of every time I post I have to deal with your BS.

Phil,

Remember that even though I thought he was dried cow dung, Cleft was able to shed the detractors off like water on a duck's back....Vag....I mean Vassilly does the same, and you should too!

Those that know anything, know that what you speak about is pretty much Gospel....based upon an awful lot of hard work and trial and error and WITHOUT disparaging those that have differing set of observations, even it they don't warrant basic courtesy.

Thanks for putting in the hard work and long, thankless hours.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

 

[Bastid]

Those that know anything, know that what you speak about is pretty much Gospel....based upon an awful lot of hard work and trial and error and WITHOUT disparaging those that have differing set of observations, even it they don't warrant basic courtesy.

That pretty much sums things up when it comes to the situation. Many of us know that some of these so called overnight testing wonders are more ego driven than accurate or in many cases reaching valid conclusions.

 

[JNewell]

I have almost posted that three times in this thread alone but I keep holding off. Thank you for calling a spade a spade, even if you have understated the magnitude of the isues.

If Vassili were my patient, I would make sure he could not even have access to a pencil or a sharpened stick. He appears to have massive and serious personality disorders, based on his public behavior here and elsewhere. It is a shame, because the actual data, apart from all his nasty tirades, is actually somewhat useful.

huh.

probably because you are a pompous, arrogant, condescending know-it-all.

you are quick to point out other's shortcomings, but ignore your own.


but im probably on your ignore list anyway, so i don't imagine you are reading this.

 

[Bastid]

I wouldn't say it's conclusive or anything or the last word etc.

It's just the way it worked out for me.

I took the top 2 performers from my cardboard series and tested them directly against each other.

Now that is a test I could put some faith in. Notice the lack of ego and the ability to remove it from the findings he obtained as opposed to others we see here.

 

[Gator97]

There is obvious problems with Phil's testing. He may have heat treat blades to same hardness and have same cross section, but it is more important to provide same initial sharpness to all blades before testing. So far I do not see this happening.

OMG! So, lemme get this straight, identical and optimal hardness in individually heat treated knives to avoid any variances, identical geometry in test knives is not really important... I suspect that's because you can't claim the same for your tests.
And what is important is identical edge. And Vassilii is the one saying that? Dude, you can't grind even bevel on a 4" knife, let alone same edge on two different knives with different geometries.
In your own tests initial sharpness variance is more than 200% from knife to knife and for the same knife in 2 different tests, and you tell someone else about "same edge"?

What is this kinder garden? Are we talking about testing knives or this is old lady tea party?

This is a public forum and people being civilized to each other is something implied. And please don't cite your Russian heritage again and then complain how others bring it up...
For the record, this isn't survival in cyberia, which I doubt U have ever experienced anyway.

If you have random initial sharpness and random load on edge - what kind of test results would it be? You may trust that, but on my opinion - there is no too much value in it.

You do have random initial sharpness and random loads, your own numbers show that quite well.

But again we do not have any numbers to analyze.

We have yours... And they are random.

When I was asked about edge angle - I try my best to describe even draw some pictures.

And your edges are still uneven and not the same from knife to knife.

Phil told me that I am not welcomed in his garage... Why all this drama?

What drama? The only drama I saw was your complaints about depression. Phil and Sal were very classy dealing with you, and you don't really deserve any of that.

 

[1234]

nozh2002
What is this kinder garden?

What is your general opinion of Blade Forums & its members ?



1234,,,,,,

 

[Gator97]

vasilli what is your problem?

His problem is lack of recognition and proper "admiration" of his tests and heroic works too expose evil manufacturers and makers promoting bad steels over the world's best, "WW II era D2 steel".
All that, while surviving(in California) surrounded by "enemies", moving in the "green and having one zinc left".
I suspect the last paranoid part is the result of reading too many books about Afghanistan/Chechnya.

I think his dream is that one day everyone will use D2, and later it will be discovered(most likely by Vasilii) that D2 was invented by Russians, or at least the best D2 is made there.

 

[wongKI]

That wasn't nice

Then again, neither was certain portions of this thread, so I'm not going to complain.