M390 VS ZDP-189 Rope Cutting - Informal testing

sodak said:
If you care so little about Spyderco, then quit posting about their knives and childishly attacking them and Sal. We're all tired of it.

Your tests aren't the only ones out there, and many of us don't agree with your conclusions, nor do we care about your opinion, thanks to your attitude.

Sal has every right to withhold proprietary information from the public, and he certainly doesn't need to share it just because YOU say he should. Get over yourself. You might consider yourself the ultimate authority, but it's not a widely held belief, that's for sure.
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+100 - Spyderco is a great (small) American "for-profit" company.
 
One of the reasons that these folks who have a CATRA machine are not free and easy with the results is that even standardized testing, like that done with the CATRA machine, are not fool-proof, and for defensable results great care and expense must be taken even before the tests begin. The reality is that if you want to test steels, and you want results that can withstand a review, you have to follow the rules of standardized testing, which means great care has to be taken to prepare the blades, edges, and the machine even before the CATRA testing begins. Just like charpy tests and hardness tests and strength tests, there are rules for each that need to be followed to get good & repeatable results. Companies that test a lot spend big bucks on machines that are used just to prepare test specimens (or spend big bucks for the test specimens prepared by others). And even when every stone is left unturned with your methodology, anyone can blow off your results by saying that your specimens were prepared correctly, or your machine was not calibrated right, or that you have a vested interest in coming to the wrong conclusions until others have replicated your results.

The ultimate goal of a knife company having a CATRA test machine is to make better knives by understanding better how knives cut and how (or how fast) they dull in use. I am sure all the companies that have them use them for that purpose. Complain all you want, but Spyperco has more sense than to release a bunch of test data just to be called a liar by some doofus on the internet.

If you want an objective test of steels, then Hardheart hit the nail on head here.

hardheart said:
I would like to have each edge measured on a laser goniometer, width above the edge bevel mic'd out, before/after high magnification pics of the edges, and hardness tests.
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If you give a CATRA machine to someone who doesn't understand these principles, you will almost assuredly get bad results & incorrect conclusions. And depending on which doofus you gave it to, the results might be presented here as irrefutable evidence that D2 has better edge retention than S90V or 10V. Instead of the measured & sound conclusion stating the geometries of the test knives, the steel, steel mfg, HT regimen, maker, & hardness, and that knife A cut better than knife B for this test.

Hand testing is entertaining to look at (for some), good for discussion, and a good way to figure out what cuts best for YOU, and what works best for YOU, but it will never be considered by ASTM as an objective or scientifically defensable comparison of steels.
 
hardheart said:
Vassili, you said Spyderco would lose business to the competition if they did not make extensive use of XHP, since the entire industry would switch to it. In this thread, you say that Spyderco is on a downward slide and you just don't care about them. You really don't see yourself as being demanding?

I wonder when Spyderco will randomly find CTS-XHP

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6987022&postcount=109

I guess after Sal is the first person to make you aware of its existence. I wonder when they will make a high performing knife out of it.

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8077632&postcount=171

ah, ok.
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You twist meaning of anything I sad.

Bottom line is - you did not move your finger to do any testing.

So far you just desperately excusing yourself from doing any real work - it is OK with me, but if doing so you trying to disregard others effort, it does not look good.

You have excuse for yourself, fine, but do not try to stop others!

Thanks, Vassili.
 
Gentlemen, Everyone has some good points here. --- The testing that has been discussed , mine included would not pass the scrutiny or a technical review board. I lived in that world like Broos is familiar with. Don't want to go back to that now. But take a look at what we have learned from some basic work. If you want to see how a knife works go cut something with it, corn stalks, rope, cardboard, tires, fish and game. If the knife does not do the job as well as you think it should get a different knife and try that one, sharpen it different and so on. It is a quest, a hobby, a avocation. It is natural to want to tell others what we have done and share the information for a lot of reasons. Ego, marketing, or just an honest attempt to add to the knowledge base on steels, heat treating or knife design. Here’s what I (we) have learned regardless of the steel used:

A harder blade will cut better and longer than a softer blade.
A thinner grind will cut with less force that an thicker section.
Sharpening media and technique makes a difference.
Sharpening angle makes a difference
Alloy content, carbide load and type of carbide influence toughness and wear resistance.
Blade shape, recurve, belly radius, flat edge all influence cutting effort and ability.
Heat treat regimen even if the end result hardness is the same will effect wear resistance toughness and corrosion resistance.
Handle design, leverage and feel can influence cutting ability.

These things are obvious now but a few years ago not so well known. This forum and others and the improved communication on the internet have helped us all to make better knives. Sal’s testing and the Mules are a good example. He is putting it out there and anyone who wants to do tests can also report to the world --right or wrong what his conclusions are.

Ankerson’s work was of intrest to me since I am just starting to work with M390. His impressions are the same as mine. A great steel with a lot of potential. His 390 blade is RC 60 +/- . I have been doing them harder than that and looks like I can drop a point or so and still get good performance. His work is not scientific, he calls it informal but it was good information for me…. Phil
 
Phil Wilson said:
Gentlemen, Everyone has some good points here. --- The testing that has been discussed , mine included would not pass the scrutiny or a technical review board. I lived in that world like Broos is familiar with. Don't want to go back to that now. But take a look at what we have learned from some basic work. If you want to see how a knife works go cut something with it, corn stalks, rope, cardboard, tires, fish and game. If the knife does not do the job as well as you think it should get a different knife and try that one, sharpen it different and so on. It is a quest, a hobby, a avocation. It is natural to want to tell others what we have done and share the information for a lot of reasons. Ego, marketing, or just an honest attempt to add to the knowledge base on steels, heat treating or knife design. Here’s what I (we) have learned regardless of the steel used:

A harder blade will cut better and longer than a softer blade.
A thinner grind will cut with less force that an thicker section.
Sharpening media and technique makes a difference.
Sharpening angle makes a difference
Alloy content, carbide load and type of carbide influence toughness and wear resistance.
Blade shape, recurve, belly radius, flat edge all influence cutting effort and ability.
Heat treat regimen even if the end result hardness is the same will effect wear resistance toughness and corrosion resistance.
Handle design, leverage and feel can influence cutting ability.

These things are obvious now but a few years ago not so well known. This forum and others and the improved communication on the internet have helped us all to make better knives. Sal’s testing and the Mules are a good example. He is putting it out there and anyone who wants to do tests can also report to the world --right or wrong what his conclusions are.

Ankerson’s work was of intrest to me since I am just starting to work with M390. His impressions are the same as mine. A great steel with a lot of potential. His 390 blade is RC 60 +/- . I have been doing them harder than that and looks like I can drop a point or so and still get good performance. His work is not scientific, he calls it informal but it was good information for me…. Phil
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Hi Phil,

Thanks for all the great information and insights. :) :thumbup:


Jim
 
Still an interesting discussion. Thanx much for the defense.

I think Hardheart, Broos and Phil have clearly explained the difficulty in finding or stating absolutes. CATRA has been trying to refine this testing for decdes and still finds variables difficult to control. We've been testing for decades and keep refining our processes.

We steel junky's happen to be interested in a field that is almost mystical in its ability to remain elusive in it's truth.

Mr. Vassili,

We have been chatting for many years. I believe and trust that you are seeking absolute truth. I do not trust that you have found it. I believe that you believe you have found it.

You have suggested how I run my company. You have told me how to run my customer service. You tell me how to run my testing and my information and you tell me that if i do not follow your direction, we will find doom and gloom.

I believe that you believe you are correct and I thank you for your advice. But I must say that my own experiences have me on my own path.

To accuse me of offering selective information only to sell my knives is unfair. We use our testing to provide you with product to use. We're not selling any particular steel over another. I'm a steel whore. I'll make whatever that small group of steel-heads like. I'll just make sure it's all good stuff. That's why I test.

We use 2" x 4" mules to test steel. We have a dedicated hollow grinder that does nothing else but grind our mules. We keep edge thickness as close as possible (+- .0005) We heat treat to the foundries specs and we test hardness. (+- 1.0) We also test at higher and lower hardnesses for our own benefit. We hand sharpen on dedicated belts and use a laser goniometer to make sure of our angles. (+- 1 degree) We test at different angles to see which angles work best for each steel.

We still get variation. That's why we test many examples and try to find an average for our understanding. Then we buy steel and make knives for you.

Phil knows how elusive this information is. Hardheart has a good idea. Ankerson is learning much in his testing. We share our information in groups and sequences. We just don't give numbers.

And we're only discussing edge retention. We also test for other properties like corrosion resistance.

We introduced S60V (CPM-420V) into the market. S60V had some problems, that's why Crucible and the market went to S30V. We get very few requests for S60V.

We also ingtroduced many other steels into the market (ATS-55, VG-10, CTS-XHP, etc). We will continue to do so as some of our customers (Steel-heads) have this interest.

We make a line of modekls in ZDP-189 from small to large because you want ZDP-189.

We make a line of models in H1 because you want corrosion resistant cutting materials.

We make Mule Team models so you can test steels. Our next 4 Mule Teams are a Takefu Damascus, Hitachi's Aogami Super Blue, Takefu Cobalt Special and Uddehom's M390. We picked these because they seemed interesting or the steel junky's asked for them. Upward and Onward; Unobtanium, Salium and Vassilium in the future. ;)

We are, at this time, the only company to make a knife for you in Carpenter's new CTS-XHP and we have many more Carpenter steels in-the-works.

It seems that for some reason you are disappointed in and dislike our company. I don't know what we might have done to deserve such a position, but I'm sure you do. Perhaps in time, we might perform in such a way to win you over?

Thanx,

sal

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Trust in the bottom line in all activity
 
I think we should keep in mind that Vassili's primary language is Russian and that he comes off as abrasive and sometimes says things he should not. His Russian character will make him more aggressive the more people dogpile on top of him.
My impression is that he's trying to get Spyderco to bring more knives to market with CTS-XHP - we would all love that. If he despises Spyderco so much, why would he even be here unless he were a total troll? I believe the data he has compiled is a worthy contribution, just as the data contributed by Ankerson and others are worthy. When you find yourselves getting emotionally involved in an argument over an issue which does not affect your way of life, pocketbook, or loved ones, just let it go man. For Sal, Eric, & those in the Spyderco business, I can imagine this type of argument is in fact a very personal thing. I think Sal's diplomacy is a marvel to behold in that light.
 
Sal that was a beautiful post and you touched me
Sal Glesser said:
I'm a steel whore.
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But this one cracked me up bigtime :D

on a sidenote: with all the highs and lows in this thread, I think that that is exactly what makes this thread a very good read with good info
 
pleeho said:
I think we should keep in mind that Vassili's primary language is Russian and that he comes off as abrasive and sometimes says things he should not. His Russian character will make him more aggressive the more people dogpile on top of him.
My impression is that he's trying to get Spyderco to bring more knives to market with CTS-XHP - we would all love that. If he despises Spyderco so much, why would he even be here unless he were a total troll? I believe the data he has compiled is a worthy contribution, just as the data contributed by Ankerson and others are worthy. When you find yourselves getting emotionally involved in an argument over an issue which does not affect your way of life, pocketbook, or loved ones, just let it go man. For Sal, Eric, & those in the Spyderco business, I can imagine this type of argument is in fact a very personal thing. I think Sal's diplomacy is a marvel to behold in that light.
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he's been infracted many times, and tends to stay away until they expire.

contrary to what you may think, he is fluent in english, as i posted before. ive been reading his stuff for several years, and he is most certainly a troll, and has an anti-spyderco agenda, never missing an opportunity to take a shot at sal.
 
You guys should be testing the alphabet steels. That is where the knife companies are heading. Crucible and Carpenter probably won't even exist in 20 years, sadly.

Hi, Sal

:)
 
They actually make the alphabet steels along with their proprietary and particle metallurgy stuff.
 
i'm curious if these alloys were made for knives in particular. so many super steels are made for industry having nothing to do with knives, high pressure noozles, cutter bars for foam rubber & so on. thanks
dennis
 
M390 is advertised for molds and also mentioned for knives. ZDP-189 I think is like the VG steels and S30V, designed as cutlery steel.
 
J.Mattson said:
I thought that 420V was S90V and it was 440V that came to be called S60V?
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your right J. I stand corrected.

Hey pleeho,

Thanx for your thought. I must say though that Vassili and I have been agreeing and dis-agreeing for many years. I have much respect for his knowledge and passion.

I think he's just frustrated with me because I don't always see things from his point of view. Or he thinks I'm being stingy with my knowledge. If that were so, he should be angry with me. :o But I try to be open and transparent. That's the best sales pitch anyway. :p

Hi Rob,

I hope you're wrong. First we have to build stuff here, good stuff. Then we have to pay good wages here so we can afford to buy the good stuff made here. I will admit that an adjustment in direction will be necessary, but we can to it. We're Americans.

Carpenter and Crucible are great steel companies. They make good stuff. They've had their economy bumps, but I think they're moving back and I think they can make steels that compete with ZDP and M390.

Vassili is correct in that CTS-XHP is an exceptional steel. So is S90V and CTS-20CP.

Ankerson's wrists will give out with all these new steels. Seriously Jim, Vassili is right. Watch those wrists. I've got "owies" that come back to haunt me like ghosts. That's why we buy machines.

sal
 
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sal you are a god of diplomacy .thanks hardheart i assume you mean die steel. d2 was used in industry for die steel for a long time.
dennis
 
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