M390 VS ZDP-189 Rope Cutting - Informal testing

[zyhano]

Problem I see here is wooden base. While you do control load caused by manila rope, affects of wooden base is more or less random, but impact wood cause on edge is harder then manila rope. Speed, force and part of edge which hits wooden base after rope was cut, most likely not under control.

Can you make some gadget similar to what I uses to make sure that it is only rope what affects the edge?

Thanks, Vassili.

Statistically, it should be about the same for both blades after so many cuts.
Both blades would have, on average, the same amount of certain types of cuts. For example 50 cuts with a 10+ degree angle off, 100 cuts wit a degree between 5-10 off and the rest of the cuts within a range of 0-5.
Most probably a normal distribution...
The same for other factors such as force to wood when the cut went through the rope, slicing speed, angle etc

 

[nozh2002]

Statistically, it should be about the same for both blades after so many cuts.
Both blades would have, on average, the same amount of certain types of cuts. For example 50 cuts with a 10+ degree angle off, 100 cuts wit a degree between 5-10 off and the rest of the cuts within a range of 0-5.
Most probably a normal distribution...
The same for other factors such as force to wood when the cut went through the rope, slicing speed, angle etc

Still I guess it better be isolated, because I have quite a different numbers with and without wooden base.

Factors which may affect this test is BM recurve - it prevents edge to hit wood (which is flat) and so it has way less load then Military which face much more contact with base.

Also rope is same for every cut, but wooden base get more and more cuts on it and wood surface at the beginning for spyderco was bit different then one BM faces.

It is not really hard to make cut in wood with circular saw which prevent blade to hit wood. Then all those factors will be easily isolated.

Thanks, Vassili.

 

[zyhano]

Still I guess it better be isolated, because I have quite a different numbers with and without wooden base.

Factors which may affect this test is BM recurve - it prevents edge to hit wood (which is flat) and so it has way less load then Military which face much more contact with base.

Also rope is same for every cut, but wooden base get more and more cuts on it and wood surface at the beginning for spyderco was bit different then one BM faces.

It is not really hard to make cut in wood with circular saw which prevent blade to hit wood. Then all those factors will be easily isolated.

Thanks, Vassili.

I agree

 

[Ankerson]

Statistically, it should be about the same for both blades after so many cuts.
Both blades would have, on average, the same amount of certain types of cuts. For example 50 cuts with a 10+ degree angle off, 100 cuts wit a degree between 5-10 off and the rest of the cuts within a range of 0-5.
Most probably a normal distribution...
The same for other factors such as force to wood when the cut went through the rope, slicing speed, angle etc

Still I guess it better be isolated, because I have quite a different numbers with and without wooden base.

Factors which may affect this test is BM recurve - it prevents edge to hit wood (which is flat) and so it has way less load then Military which face much more contact with base.

Also rope is same for every cut, but wooden base get more and more cuts on it and wood surface at the beginning for spyderco was bit different then one BM faces.

It is not really hard to make cut in wood with circular saw which prevent blade to hit wood. Then all those factors will be easily isolated.

Thanks, Vassili.

I agree

None of what either one of you are saying with make any noticeable difference between these two knives and steels.

You guys can what if all day long but in the end it won't make any difference in the outcome, the margin was too large in the end.

ZDP started to noticeably dull over 150 cuts before M390 did, nothing will change that between these two knives and steels that I tested.

I stopped at 600 with M390, but I could have gone a lot longer, likely another 100+ cuts as it was still easy at 600.

With a margin that big the outcome won't change, it might close up alittle due to variables etc, but there is no way the end result will change.

I guess neither of you too have any idea who Phil Wilson is, if you did you wouldn't even be posting what you did.

 

[Ankerson]

Sal Glesser mentioned a few things to me so I am going to run the test again with 2 NIB knives that I will set to 30 inclusive and I will be using 5/8" rope this time per Mr. Phil Wilson's recommendation.

Everything else will be the same.

 

[DennisStrickland]

jim regards to my previous remark concerning armchair warriors. it always amazes me that people actually wish to tell you how to perform your tests, how to hold your hand, what angle the sun should be, & how to hold your mouth. certainly many of these test critisizers ca,nt realize the contributions of phil wilson & the significance of his comments. by the way jim were you wearing your shades when you did the tests.
dennis

 

[Ankerson]

jim regards to my previous remark concerning armchair warriors. it always amazes me that people actually wish to tell you how to perform your tests, how to hold your hand, what angle the sun should be, & how to hold your mouth. certainly many of these test critisizers ca,nt realize the contributions of phil wilson & the significance of his comments. by the way jim were you wearing your shades when you did the tests.
dennis

Dennis,

The glare was so bright from the edges I had to wear my shades.

I really don't think they know who Phil Wilson is, he is a legend in the knife world.

 

[Sal Glesser]

In defense of Vassili's comment, the CATRA machine has an elaborate set-up to be able to cut the card stock in the air with nothing backing. Cut stock is also added to the cut in a cup to keep the weight equal.

"Back in the day" we used rope, and then insulation with our first cutting mcachine, but we couldn't get it consistent enough for long term testing, so we bit the bullet and bough the CATRA.

sal

 

[Ankerson]

In defense of Vassili's comment, the CATRA machine has an elaborate set-up to be able to cut the card stock in the air with nothing backing. Cut stock is also added to the cut in a cup to keep the weight equal.

"Back in the day" we used rope, and then insulation with our first cutting mcachine, but we couldn't get it consistent enough for long term testing, so we bit the bullet and bough the CATRA.

sal

Hi Sal,

Those CATRA Machines are awesome.

I wish I was rich so I could buy one, yeah I would be in testing heaven then. :thumbup:

Jim

 

[zyhano]

None of what either one of you are saying with make any noticeable difference between these two knives and steels.

You guys can what if all day long but in the end it won't make any difference in the outcome, the margin was too large in the end.

ZDP started to noticeably dull over 150 cuts before M390 did, nothing will change that between these two knives and steels that I tested.

I stopped at 600 with M390, but I could have gone a lot longer, likely another 100+ cuts as it was still easy at 600.

With a margin that big the outcome won't change, it might close up alittle due to variables etc, but there is no way the end result will change.

I guess neither of you too have any idea who Phil Wilson is, if you did you wouldn't even be posting what you did.

It is not about that. My comments about statistics are valid.
I agreed on vasillis comment about isolating the only factors to compare the steels

jim regards to my previous remark concerning armchair warriors. it always amazes me that people actually wish to tell you how to perform your tests, how to hold your hand, what angle the sun should be, & how to hold your mouth. certainly many of these test critisizers ca,nt realize the contributions of phil wilson & the significance of his comments. by the way jim were you wearing your shades when you did the tests.
dennis

I hope that is not directed at me. I am telling no one what to do...only saying something that might help the discussion.

Dennis,

The glare was so bright from the edges I had to wear my shades.

I really don't think they know who Phil Wilson is, he is a legend in the knife world.

Yes, i understand he is a legend. But that has nothing to do with statistics

In defense of Vassili's comment, the CATRA machine has an elaborate set-up to be able to cut the card stock in the air with nothing backing. Cut stock is also added to the cut in a cup to keep the weight equal.

"Back in the day" we used rope, and then insulation with our first cutting mcachine, but we couldn't get it consistent enough for long term testing, so we bit the bullet and bough the CATRA.

sal

Another legend steps in . And we're all just discussing in good manner here. I love the tests and the results you get from them. Great work.:thumbup:
I try to add to the discussion by throwing in statistics and common sense, and Sal backs up the part about common sense, about keeping things consistent.
So far no disagreement and no critique as far as I'm concerned.
I also agree with the big difference factor you found.

 

[Phil Wilson]

Zyhano, and others.. This discussion on the wood backing keeps coming up. Your explanation based on statistics is sound. Yes the wood will have some effect on edge dulling but it is the same over time for both knives. In addition I have to disagree with Vasili. A larger diameter rope with a slicing cut has more abrasive wear effect than touching the wood base at the bottom of the cut. Cutting against a firm base allows more control than cutting into air where the rope kind of mushes at the end. Sharpening, blade grind, and all other variables have more effect than touching the wood I submit. That's how I do it and others can do it however they want with a method they have confidence in. We all do this testing for different reasons. I compared a RC 60 CPM S110V blade against the same blade but at RC 64. I could tell the difference in 100 cuts on 5/8 rope. There is nothing wrong with this steel at 60 but at the higher hardness it just felt different. Like Ankersom is descrbing his test. The harder blade was crisp and you could just feel that it would cut for a very long time. Again I have said this before, we are looking for big differences. Also thanks-- all-- for the kind words. I will probably never find the perfect heat treat and steel combination but aside from hunting and fishing it sure is fun to be on the quest. Phil

 

[So-Lo]

As always, another great thread! Thanks Jim!

 

[Sal Glesser]

I don't think it would be possible, certainly not practical to try to cut rope without a backing. The CATRA has a very complicated bit of kit to achieve this. Special material, brackets, automatic feed, etc.

Hey Phil,

Have you done much testing with S90V? What do you think is the optimal hardness for S90V?

sal

 

[Ankerson]

As always, another great thread! Thanks Jim!

Thanks man.

I don't think it would be possible, certainly not practical to try to cut rope without a backing. The CATRA has a very complicated bit of kit to achieve this. Special material, brackets, automatic feed, etc.


sal

Hi Sal,

I don't think it's possible either, confusing to think about it.


I have 200' of 5/8" rope coming, added another 100' so I know I won't run out.

The results will be interesting when they are all compiled I think. :thumbup:


Jim

 

[nozh2002]

None of what either one of you are saying with make any noticeable difference between these two knives and steels.

You guys can what if all day long but in the end it won't make any difference in the outcome, the margin was too large in the end.

ZDP started to noticeably dull over 150 cuts before M390 did, nothing will change that between these two knives and steels that I tested.

I stopped at 600 with M390, but I could have gone a lot longer, likely another 100+ cuts as it was still easy at 600.

With a margin that big the outcome won't change, it might close up alittle due to variables etc, but there is no way the end result will change.

I guess neither of you too have any idea who Phil Wilson is, if you did you wouldn't even be posting what you did.

This does not surprise me if BM did not touch wood at all and it did not most likely because this recurve, while Spy hit it full strength. Cutting wood is harder then cutting rope and if you cut wood and rope with one knife and cut only rope with another - you may have this very difference.

Again, we spend more time talking about this, then it take to make simple cut in this piece of wood and have all this resolved.

In my testing I consider it as a one of the critical factor - to cut it in the air, because I have pretty unstable results when I cut rope on the wooden base. With edge ending up in the air - results are stable and I am confident in my testing.

Thanks, Vassili.

P.S. I have pretty good idea who Phil Wilson is and I point him same mistake he made in his testing many times before, having back nothing but anger.

 

[Noctis3880]

Without looking to criticize anyone or their testing, the most practical method to get feedback on the steel would be to find people who have knives with said steel and get the feedback on them. Particularly feedback comparing previous experience with another knife(or the same) in another steel, and what specifically was being cut.

After my 2nd day of use and only 2 cases of corn, my BM 755 stopped push cutting paper(aside from that last 1/2 inch from the tip which could still push cut), but could still slice it just fine:thumbup:.

 

[wongKI]

Great thread

Ankerson, my earlier suggestion of "harder stuff" was sort of because I always considered rope to be abrasive but not tough...Maybe try cutting something like hard woods? Wood (to my knowledge) isn't abrasive but it is harder than rope. Of course I will defer to the experts (You, Sal and Phil )

 

[Noctis3880]

Corn stalk is like wet wood.

 

[JNewell]

P.S. I have pretty good idea who Phil Wilson is and I point him same mistake he made in his testing many times before, having back nothing but anger.

I have spent many hours reading old posts here and elsewhere. I'm sorry, "nothing but anger" just isn't fair or accurate.

 

[STR]

The Knives used were Spyderco Endura 4 FFG and Benchmade 710-1.

Material was 1/2" Manila rope.

ZDP was tested 1st and I cut until it would not cut paper without tearing it.


Results

ZDP-189 = 550
M390 = 600+ (I stopped after 600)

Impressions

ZDP did extremely well until around 450 cuts then it noticeably harder to make the cuts as in it got to be a lot of work. After 550 cuts it started to tear paper.

M390 even after 550 cuts it was still not getting noticeably harder to cut the rope, after 600 cuts it was still pretty easy and it would still slice paper clean.

Nothing is conclusive or the final word etc on this as this is just my informal findings between these 2 steels. Both are excellent and hold an edge for a very long time, both are at the top of the heap IMO of the Super Steels.

Endura 4 FFG Photos after 450 cuts

BM 710-1 Photos after 600 cuts

Jim great test and thats a lot of rope! Looking at the pictures its just a curious point really but is the Spyderco like significantly older than the BM? I know you haven't had the BM long. The reason I ask is because of what we talked of earlier. I wonder how much of the 'perceived effort' is due to the Spyderco being sharpened down so because it appears in the pictures that the edge is a bit more obtuse than the new fresh out of the box BM.

The results may be closer to each other than realized due to the more obtuse edge of the Spydie. Still though it sounds like the M390 is a top contender. Thanks for all the blisters!

By the way, forgive me if I've just brought up something already asked and answered. Guilty of not reading all posts as usual here.
STR